deleted by creator
You’re correct objectively, however I think one of the things people (myself included) like about Sisko is that he’s flawed. He’s (imo) the most complex and developed captain and does let his emotions cloud his judgement from time to time but always means well. While Picard is my #2 fave, he’s more an ideal that casts such a massive shadow that nobody can live up to him. Picard perfectly encapsulates humanities ideals, whereas Sisko portays how flawed humanity truly is.
deleted by creator
For sure, one thing I love about ST is how diverse the main characters are between shows. I wouldn’t want every captain to just just be a rehash of Sisko, Picard, Kirk or any of the others. Each captain’s uniqueness is that makes them interesting and captivating.
I can see how it can be appealing. Makes for good storytelling at the very least.
That’s what I really like. It’s fiction and people can get their good storytelling. I wish they would stop electing leaders who behave against the future of humanity.
As someone who has had this opinion “Sisko is a war criminal who destroyed a planet’s biosphere” I encourage you to rewatch the episode.
-
the “refugees” are terrorists who developed the bomb Sisko used, he just returned it from cardassian DNA to human DNA
-
this is not about a personal vendetta, this is about the treaty with cardassia that will save lives.
-
These terrorists are jeopardizing peace just because they aren’t willing to relocate, not because they have a spiritual connection with the land (“TNG:Journey’s End”) but because they “Already built a home here” . The settlers Picard was going to remove by force actually joined the cardassians because they didn’t want to leave, but the Maqius are so racist they were willing to use said weapon to make the planet uninhabitable to cardassians
-
on racism: Eddington says “the Maqius are not killers” after blowing up a cardassian vessel.
-
yes they did have a vendetta but Sisko played that aspect of this conflict so Eddington would turn himself in.
It’s not confirmed in the show or anything, but I doubt the Maqius were only going to use that weapon defensively.
deleted by creator
About your quote: “You cannot explain away a wantonly immoral act because you think it is connected to some higher purpose.” ~ Jean-Luc Picard
I look at it in three ways,
- Wantonly: We can either define as “(of a cruel or violent action) deliberate and unprovoked.” or “in a reckless way” Reckless: without thinking or caring about the consequences of an action.
I think we can agree that this was not a unprovoked or reckless action. It was provoked by the Marquis use of cloaked missiles armed with biogenic (Genocidal?) weapons, in addition to Eddington’s betrayal, theft and sabotage. It was not reckless because this was all leading up to the dominion war. This is after the first adversarial conflict with the dominion, and getting the Cardassians as an ally would undoubtedly be more beneficial than an alliance with the ragtag Maquis. Though I am curious if you believe otherwise.
-
Re: Immorality: I think my other comment has more to discuss on this point, so I wont repeat that here.
-
Higher Purpose: I can see this in a few ways The first is merrian-webster, and the least helpful: " a more meaningful reason to live, work, etc"
secondly is the top result on google for me
Which gives several points, but boils it down to “Higher purpose is just purpose beyond yourself, and you identify it when you find a goal that you really want and believe in.” and lastly, I see it used often in a religious way.
What “Higher Purpose” do you believe Sisko uses, and why use this quote for this situation?
Eddington says he has a Higher cause/purpose , but I (as sisko does) argue he is the one acting recklessly in additionally to selfishly here, risking war with the Cardassians when there is a greater threat looming (The dominion) , a threat Eddington would know about as security officer.
EDDINGTON: Tell me, Captain. What is it that bothers you more? The fact that I left Starfleet to fight for a higher cause, or the fact that it happened on your watch?
SISKO: You didn’t leave Starfleet. If you had, I wouldn’t be here. You betrayed Starfleet. You used your position as security chief to feed the Maquis information about us. And at the same time, you misled us with false information about them. There is a word for that. Treason.
EDDINGTON: Look out there.
(Sisko looks out into the main cave again.)
EDDINGTON: Those people, They were colonists on Salva Two. They had farms, and shops, and homes, and schools, and then one day the Federation signed a treaty and handed their world over to the Cardassians. Just like that. They made these people refugees overnight.
SISKO: It’s not that simple and you know it. These people don’t have to live here like this. We’ve offered them resettlement.
EDDINGTON: They don’t want to be resettled. They want to go home to the lives they built. How would you feel if the Federation gave your father’s home to the Cardassians?
SISKO: I’m not here to debate Federation policy with-
EDDINGTON: I didn’t tell you to turn around. Look at them, Captain. They’re humans, just like you and me, and Starfleet took everything away from them. Remember that the next time you put on that uniform. There’s a war out there and you’re on the wrong side.
SISKO: You know what I see out there, Mister Eddington? I see victims, but not of Cardassia or the Federation. Victims of you, the Maquis. You sold these people on the dream that one day they could go back to those farms, and schools, and homes, but you know they never can. And the longer you keep that hope alive, the longer these people will suffer.
This conflict is morally grey, but I don’t think its appropriate to just write off my arguments because of a quote from another morally compromised captain.
deleted by creator
Sorry this was exhausting, I was just trying to have a fun argument about one of my favorite controversial episodes.
You say you’ve done, but kept arguing as well so it’s not exactly clear what you want.
If there is something I ignored and you want to continue, we can. If not, live long and prosper 🖖
Because you said you rewatched it, how do you justify you use of the words “sterilized” and “humanoid” in your comment I originally replied to? Additionally, you use the word “Centuries” but the bomb will only “make the planet uninhabitable to all human life for the next fifty years.”
What occupation are these Maqius humans fleeing from?
Why do you say they have no other options despite being offered to be resettled?
How are the Maqius “reclaiming” that world?
Is using a chemical method to make the planet uninhabitable to humans less moral than Picard teleporting everyone away against their will?
What do you think the cardassians would have done to the men women and children if Sisko did not solve this problem preemptively?
Edit: was it immoral for Kira to burn down the cottage in DS9: Progress?
-
As a Captain Picard admirer coming from TNG, I have always held these things against Sisko just as you do. I´d go as far as saying that SIsko is a war criminal. That does not mean I don´t like DS9 though - on the contrary.
deleted by creator
Archer and Janeway have done some batshit stuff too.
deleted by creator
Archer withheld a cure for an entire species because Phlox convinced him it was the natural course of things. (Valakians) Janeway goes back in time to get her ship home with more crew alive, altering history in who knows what ways for the entire galaxy.
deleted by creator
If we consider Sisko’s personal vendetta a bad thing that makes us question his authority to lead, I don’t understand how we excuse Janeway and the time travel stuff she pulled to get Voyager home–her actions had exponentially more butterfly effect consequences than Sisko could ever dream of.
deleted by creator
It also fits with what we know about her. Janeway was always second guessing her decision to ultimately strand her crew in the Delta quadrant. She felt extremely guilty about all of the people on her ship that got killed through those 20 years (especially Seven of Nine) and wanted to do something about it.
Good points. I haven’t rewatched Voyager since the finale aired so I may have been conflating the two Janeways. I’m just going to ignore the obvious time travel issues this raises because they make zero sense.
I hate that Enterprise episode because it is such an edge case for the Prime Directive, and humanity hasn’t even adopted it yet.
Even if the species didn’t develop warp drive, they have had contact with other species that did. This isn’t a pure, uncontaminated species that needs to be protected. Hell, I think that this species even contacts the Enterprise.
And this seems to be a trivial enough cure that this species is going to find another species to cure them. If Phlox can develop a cure in weeks on a spaceship, this seems to be trivial work for space faring civilizations.
I feel like Janeway was justified if just due to the fact that the Equinox was a Starfleet crew that were breaking major Federation law. If any ship in the Delta Quadrant had the right to punish the crew of the Equinox, it was Voyager.
deleted by creator
I remember Archer giving the order to “TARGET THEIR WARP CORE!!!” (which equals killing everyone on the enemy ship) once in a battle. I don´t think I have ever seen another Starfleet Captain do that and was pretty surprised. Can´t remember what episode it was.
The thing is, in Enterprise people were supposed to be savage mavericks. In DS9, they were supposed to be advanced.
That is indeed a very good point!
I’m a normies with Star Trek but I remember watching with a homie a thing with Sisko saying he was a war criminal and hoped that people could learn from him.
It was fun, having a leading character that was a lil unstable.
Janeway arguably went off the deep end a couple times, too.
I’ve never forgiven her for murdering Tuvix.
Tuvix was an accident and should have never existed in the first place while Tuvok and Neelix were real people. Janeway made a hard choice and then did the right thing by correcting the accident.
Tuvok and Neelix were dead. A tragic accident, yes, but dead.
Tuvix was a living being who wanted - and had a right - to live. How he came to exist is irrelevant.
Janeway murdered an innocent living man to bring two dead man back to life.
Tuvok and Neelix were dead. A tragic accident, yes, but dead.
They were obviously both trapped inside of Tuvix as a result of a transporter malfunction. In Tuvix they were merged accidentally but they never stopped to exist, Tuvix was made out of them.
Tuvix was a living being who wanted - and had a right - to live. How he came to exist is irrelevant.
True, however - that did not diminish Tuvok´s and Neelix´s right to exist as individuals and as we know 2>1. The right to exist of two naturally born and socialized beings clearly outweights the right of one individual who came into sudden existence by splicing the two through a technological malfunction.
Janeway murdered an innocent living man to bring two dead man back to life.
No, they where never dead, they where just merged and luckily that could be corrected - for a high price but it was worth it. Let´s not omit that Tuvix was no natural being, he was never born, had no parents, no family, no history and no social life prior to the accident. If you think about it you have to admit that everything that made Tuvix - his genes, his face, his feelings and memories, everything - was not his but belonged to Tuvok and Neelix because it had been taken from them to create Tuvix. Everything Tuvix was belonged to Tuvok and Neelix and as the original owners they had a right to get back what had always been theirs.
Sisko is my favorite. I don’t think it was going off the deep end as much as using the same strategy the US used by nuking Japan. Japan had no chance at that point and continuing conventional war would have been more costly in terms of lives lost and property damage. Using nukes crushed any hope they had of continuing the war and have their prideful government an out that preserves their ego.
In DS9, it sent the message that the federation is can and will annihilate the dominion to defend themselves and the god complex of the changelings was pure delusion.
Nuking two cities to save a theoretical number of people is evil. There is no excuse for the atomic bombing of Japan.
I don’t like the phrase “no excuse”. I’m a particularist. E.g. There is no excuse for shooting someone. Shooting a person actively shooting up an elementary school is fine in my book.
I’m not saying there is no excuse to ever bomb someone. I’m saying there is no excuse for this specific bombing. The bombs killed between 150,000 to 220,000 people, mostly civilians.
You may be right in that using nukes was the wrong call. IMO, it seems like it was the best of bad options.
Saying there is no excuse and you disagree with something are two different things. The phrase “no excuse” is saying you think it is objectively wrong in a way that sounds like it isn’t just your opinion. I don’t think you mean it that way, I’m just explaining why I really don’t like that phrase.
As bad as the nukes were, the conventional bombing of Tokyo was probably worse. Over 100k civilians were killed with 1,000,000+ left homeless.
The Intel Report on YouTube digs into this subject pretty well. I recommend giving it a listen/watch: https://youtu.be/xG4ks5f31Wg?si=iAv_tLpkgsE5WA9f
@ClericalBlunt Yes. Japan so polite so clean. Dindu nuffing.
deleted by creator
I’m in the middle of my DS9 rewatch and totally forgot about the stark difference between Sisko hair and Sisko bald. I just watched the Homefront/Paradise Lost episodes and the episode where Eddington defects to the Maquis and watching Sisko go all badass and lose his shit was fantastic.
Bald Sisko’s appearance is where the fun begins.
Sisko shaving his head was the DS9 version of growing the beard.
deleted by creator
Much as I like Avery Brooks, he never got a handle on the Sisko character until he shaved and went back to being Hawk but with a son. They should have let him do that from the beginning.
You got so many memes coming out right now it’s crazy!
Why do you think Worf was a little scared of Sisko?
Man was clearly delusional.
