So I was posting on this thread which is a meme about how everything is Chromium (except Firefox obviously) and was replying to somebody talking about needing the “Linux of browser engines”.
This got me thinking about a few things as this is an area which I’m very much for reducing the, honestly slightly obscene, amount of control that Google have over this space with Chromium.
So I thought why not make a quick discussion to showcase some alternatives that are out there in development that people might not know about and bring them some attention as well as just foster a discussion in general on the topic.
So this won’t be focusing on Blink and WebKit (nor KHTML which, whilst independent is still closely tied to Blink and WebKit. For those unaware KHTML is KDE’s browser engine, forked by Apple to make WebKit which itself was forked to create Blink. It has also recently been killed off entirely for KF6 so is very much dead end now). By extension this also includes things like Qt WebEngine or anything else based on WebKit or Chromium/Blink.
I’m also not touching on Gecko - the other “big” engine out there. Whilst I am a huge proponent of Firefox, Gecko has proven that it just isn’t as popular to use in alternative browsers as Chromium or Webkit. I’m not knowledgeable to explain exactly why this is but there are plenty of resources out there. By extension I’m also not expanding upon Goanna.
The reason for my interest is also because it goes beyond just browsers - for example these could be used in Electron-like projects for desktop Javascript apps.
So what alternatives are there or are currently in development?
Servo
A project started by then abandoned by Mozilla to develop a new experimental browser engine. Was picked up by the Linux Foundation and had a recent round of funding to begin active development again. Why do I find this interesting?
- It isn’t being created as part of a larger browser project - i.e. it is a project to develop the engine and not to develop a browser. Hopefully this means it is far more portable and embedabble for anyone who wants to use it for their own project.
- Supported by the Linux Foundation rather than any of the tech corps like Facebook or Google which hopefully means they are more open and friendly to community contribution.
- Written in Rust - I’m not claiming that this is good because of the language technology itself but Rust is currently very popular with lots of people wanting to learn it and contribute to projects so hopefully this inspires people to get involved with it.
- Not a KHTML/WebKit/Blink (or even a Gecko) fork
- Repo is on GitHub - Don’t get me wrong, I’m not a GitHub shill, but generally people monitor and know how to use GitHub better than Google and Mozilla’s systems. I’d honestly be just as happy if using GitLab or any other alternatives as they still confirm to that same user experience (and to be fair WebKit is also on GitHub).
Ferus
A much smaller and lower profile project described as “A toy web engine written in Nim” but one I find interesting enough to be watching
- Written in Nim - I’m all for getting less popular but interesting languages being used in more projects
- Small GitHub hosted and actively developed project that seems would be easy to get involved with if you wanted to help develop or improve the project.
NetSurf and NeoSurf
Not browser engines but browsers that use their own engine and not based on anything else. NetSurf is the original and has been ported to a ton of different OSs (it was actually made for Acorn’s RISCOS originally) but development is somewhat slow so it seems NeoSurf is a fork to try and improve and build upon it.
LibWeb and Ladybird
Part of the fascinating SerenityOS project - Ladybird is its home grown but cross platform browser using its own LibWeb browser engine. Honestly I’m not particularly familiar with the project and the first link does a much better job of explaining it all than I can.
So yeah, just thought to put some open source alternative browser engine projects that are out there to draw attention and foster a little discussion in this community. Interested to see what people think.
Firefox user here. For years I’ve been using Chrome. Moved to Firefox. Can’t say I miss Chrome or Chromium based browsers.
Same. Firefox is so much better… I don’t understand why people don’t use it.
I just can’t get used to Firefox render engine it just feels weird. And that’s a deal breaker for me. Happy Vivaldi user.
I ditched Firefox when they fucked up and forgot to renew an SSL cert and caused all my extensions to stop working. The internet without adblock is not worth using.
Now I use Waterfox
I’m not sure what you talking about… I never encountered such an issue using firefox daily for 5 years, using Ublock Origin for most of that time.
I recall something about this. Looked it up quickly and found this pretty sure it’s what they are referring to.
Either way, it seems (to me) like it’s such a petty thing to switch browsers permanently. I wouldn’t switch forever because of a simple bug that it looks like it was solved pretty quickly. Besides, don’t use Adblock Plus people. Use Ublock Origin. Much better.
Yeah that’s it. Obviously it was fixed after a couple days but the fact that it happened at all was the final straw for me. I was already pretty annoyed by pocket and the sponsored links.
It’s because Chrome is so ubiquitous. You go to any Google site, particularly search, in a browser other than Chrome and you’re presented with notifications to install Chrome. Plus, its integration with Google accounts presents a great value proposition for many users.
Personally, I was on Firefox for years until I got a MacBook Pro in 2014. For whatever reason, Firefox would constantly crash, so I switched to Chrome. I only went back to Firefox in about… 2019(?) when they released Quantum and I’ve been on it since. It’s really the perfect browser, particularly with extension support. I also like how on Android you can install uBlock Origin.
With Google’s impending Manifest V3 looming on the horizon for all Chromium-based browsers, it just further cements my decision to remain on Firefox. I do keep Brave around as backup for the extremely rare situations where something for whatever reason doesn’t work in Firefox, but that’s becoming exceedingly unnecessary.
Same here. I think Firefox is great but it seems that, for whatever reason, it is unpopular as a base for alternative browsers (although one of my favourites is https://pulsebrowser.app/) and Gecko also seems unpopular as an engine, not even their own Positron project went anywhere although GeckoView seems to be maintained but I’m not familiar with it or projects using it.
Over the years I always found something wrong with Firefox until I moved abruptly to it about 1 year ago. It’s not that bad and I don’t miss Chrome at all. Might be worth to try it these days
Chrome is threatening the web so yes we need alternatives
Chrome became the thing it sought to destroy… IE6
Dooble and Falkon (according to those wiki links) appear to both be using Qt WebEngine which is based on Blink and therefore Chromium. Dillo is new to me though.
And yeah totally get you with the alternative OSs, I really like RISCOS but the web is almost unusable - WebSurf is the browser that comes with it and whilst there is work on a newer, more capable one it isn’t publicly accessible yet.
One browser that I think is promising for power users is Nyxt. It’s designed to support multiple browser back-ends with Webkit currently supported and Blink under experimental support. Nyxt also includes out of the box support for Vim, Emacs, and CUA keybindings for keyboard-centric navigation. The fact that is can also be extended and configured with Common Lisp makes it feel like the Emacs of web browsers. The only reason I haven’t switched to it yet is that it doesn’t include support for WebExtensions yet, but it’s a planned feature.
I was looking at this recently as a potential alternative for qutebrowser - just hope that one day it can use a non webkit or blink engine.
Firefox is my go to but I keep a chromium based browser for when I really need it. Currently running with Vivaldi for that. As for other browsers, I’d love to see Gnome Web (formerly Epiphany) start allowing extensions like Bitwarden, etc.
Firefox + Vivaldi has been my go-to for about a year now. Only reason I need Vivaldi is for work, since we use Google Suite. Hangouts on Firefox doesn’t see/give me the right audio options. And large Sheets are noticeably slower/less responsive on FF then on any Chromium-based browser. Vivaldi feels like the best option among Chromium options.
Vivaldi is closed source, otherwise it would have been my go-to for Chromium as well
When I got tired of some BS changes Google was making with Chrome (and concerned about the Chromium near-monopoly) I switched to Firefox. It had just revamped itself out of the Australis debacle, and had some very good extensions available on the front page of its store, so I switched and never looked back.
Honestly, for what I wanted and needed out of a browser, it was just better than Chrome, and it still is. Highly underrated browser, and I wish more people would give it a shot. I also wish that Mozilla would give people the option to change its default icon with their new, more sleek orange and purple swirl without the fox and world.
The default Firefox icon honestly isn’t very stylish (especially when compared to the Chrome icon and the new Edge icon) and I think a lot of people may just avoid it due to not liking the way the icon looks. Dead serious here, marketing / image is everything for a lot of tech products.
I really like the icon, I think its a nice mix of the newer “simple” style of icon but still calls back to the classic one.
What is this new icon you mention without the fox and world? I don’t think I’ve seen it.
Edit: Is it this Firefox “brand” icon at the top of this image?
Couldn’t a Chromium clone relicensed under some copyleft license also be a viable option against Chromiums? Chromium is licensed under BSD-3 which Wikipedia claims is compatible with the GPL, so there wouldn’t be any legal reason this couldn’t be done, right? Other than not really wanting to split a project with excessive forks (which is only bad if you think that the Chromium project itself is a net good), is there some technical or other reason why this would be a bad idea?
There is no reason why you can’t but it does become complicated. Say for example I wanted to keep manifest v2 support in my fork, to start with it is probably easy but I would still need it to keep up to date with the upstream version which might become harder and harder and harder to do as time goes on with more and more changes. I just think there is little appetite for such a project unless Google take Chromium in a completely unacceptable direction that drives everyone away.
Well, there’s a reason I can’t (IDK anything about browser internals 😅).
I only meant if you weren’t concerned with keeping it synchronized with the original project. I was reading it more as a proposal for the community to get behind a free alternative rather than strictly informational about browser engine alternatives.
Noob ideological flailing
I feel like I see a lot of scorn for corporate open source projects (with good reason—whoever controls the code base controls controls what features get added that are technically compatible with free software but could promote lock-in if added together). I was trying to understand to what extent this is based on a view that capitalist interests aren’t always aligned with the public good 😮 and what was specific to Chromium itself. I guess the existence of free software is necessary, but it doesn’t get you the entire way to software freedom if you don’t consider who controls the main branch of all the projects.
The unfortunate problem with all of this is Widevine DRM. Ain’t no way in hell Google is gonna just allow those forks to play anything held back by them. Without Widevine: No TV streaming, No Spotify, some Twitch streams also have DRM, and the list goes on and on…
And, god forbid, Cloudflare’s DDoS tech decides to mark them out, then they are all DOA because they can’t access a good half the internet. Fuck centralization.
All browsers have horrible resource management. Chrome is bad. Firefox is worse.
I do not understand why it is standard that a single browser tab can eat up the full resources of the underlying hardware. And worse: The browser programmers do not even realize that this is a problem.
The problem is usually not the browser but the web page. Most client side web frameworks are horribly inefficient Firefox and Chrome are not going to use 1Gb of RAM to load a static webpage. Gmail, for example, on the other hand will download 60Mb of crap before doing anything useful and then will keep loading more crap into memory every second.
When browser compatibility nightmare was finally almost over…
Imagine wanting a monopoly.
Yeah, then Google came along and fucked it up for all of us again by moving away from standards and towards trying to declare “whatever Chrome does” as standard again.
No love for Ladybird?
(Edit: not ladybug)
What is Ladybug?
Andrew Klings browser from scratch as part of his Serenity OS.
It recently got 100k in funding by some VC firm, but its fully open source
Thats the same link as the section in my post on “LibWeb and Ladybird”
Hah, right. I should learn to read!
I’m surprised no one has mentioned Librewolf. It’s been my favorite by far.
Librewolf is a Firefox fork and therefore a Gecko engined browser so intentionally wasn’t mentioned.
