So, no one’s going to discuss the Astarion-shaped elephant in the room, I take it? In this era of conscientious consent, we’re just going to gloss over the serial rapist allegory because he’s part vampire — it’s, what, just his nature? It’s genuinely disappointing that this seems to get downplayed rather than sparking discourse, all due respect. 🤷🏼♂️
He’s not part vampire, he is a vampire. He is definitionally an evil, undead monster.
But also, he’s not a rapist. He never rapes anyone in the game, and he never tries to rape anyone in the game. When he flirts with you, if you turn him down he backs down immediately and accepts that no means no. Hell, when he tries to bite you if you say no he backs down immediately and accepts that no means no too.
You’re also given plenty of chances to kick him out of your party and to even attack him, precisely because he is an evil undead monster. For Astarion to hang around, you have to explicitly allow him to do so.
Call him a monster, call him evil, but comparing him with a rapist is just so far out there and makes no sense at all.
I agree with most of what you said, and would also not call him a rapist, and don’t think he should get quite a pass on the whole “backs down if you say no when you catch him” part.
He’s not stupid and evil, so when his attempted prey wakes up he doesn’t force the issue. He did still try to, somnophiliac-like, literally prey on an unconsenting unconscious person which is bad. He can be forgiven due to circumstance and dialogue, but that’s a choice that I wouldn’t say that a player would be wrong in making as compared to kicking him out.
Serial? He says you’re the first human he ever tried to bite. Everything before he was literally being mind controlled. If you want to compare it to rape that’s fine, he does sneak up on you, but I don’t see how that’s a “serial rapist allegory”
I think you’re overthinking it. He’s just a vampire and that’s why he acts kinda rapey without any allegorical implications. Then once you know, it’s less rapey and more… Jeffery Dahmer. The same way Lae’zel seems like a huge bitch because that’s just how the Gityanki are.
but… that’s not rape, it’s nothing sexual nor about power not control, it’s just sustenance. I would prefer to use other terms, but in any case, he does that just once and never again, while saying that he acts kinda rapey gives the vibe that it’s something constant. Also they way he acts is not really because of vampirism (well, besides the obvious blood sucking), it’s because he has been a slave for 200 years, trained for deceiving people and bringing pain and suffering, and we know that people that live through those events then without guidance tend to become the perpetrators, which is literally what’s happening to him, he was trained for 200 years to be deceiving, that the pain of others is pleasurable and that control over others is the ultimate goal.
You find him in the sun extatic about the fact that, for the first time in 200 years he can sense the sun and be free. He doesn’t want to help others, he wants to experience LIFE, which for him is what cazador lived as, inflict pain without consequence, gain power for himself, and be free. Once you get to know him, his fear of cazador showing up shows up, with the gur hunter, and he begins to show more aspects of himself, even trying to court you to gain power from it. Then, as he gets to know you and actual feelings being to show up, he stops being so flirtatious and explains why he was doing it, that he has no actual experience in normla relationships and that he wants to explore it slowly, lol.
Anyway, I simp for shart so fuck that guy but he’s no rapist lol.
The first encounter where you catch him trying to bite you and the dialogue preceeding it? It’s pretty sexual/date rapey until you figure out he’s a vampire and he’s been alluding to that and not sex. Knowing after the fact doesn’t change the vibe they definitely did on purpose for the less perceptive players that didn’t notice his fangs or the bite marks on his neck. Personally, I found it pretty funny in retrospect. Which I think was what Larian intended more than any sort of social commentary.
Idk, I’ll remind you that you sleep right next to your other 3 companions, rape didn’t even cross my mind, he comes sneaking and you catch him with his fangs out, if I didn’t notice I would think that he is trying to steal something from me since he’s a rogue. I really don’t see that vibe you mention and with the EA I’ve done that scene more than 10 times. Maybe it’s the fact that he gives the vibes of a predator for a moment that made you think that.
That’s if you don’t take him at face value - which would have been a great RP point if it weren’t for the fact feeding literally gives him a “Happy” buff and leaves the other party with a “Bloodless” debuff, and that there’s no visible bite mark on your character unless you let him feed on you iirc. Plus, he makes good on his promise to not sneak around the camp again if you go “oh yeah, no worries dude you could’ve just asked”, so even moreso he seems sincere about only feeding on animals since joining up. If anything, he was acting less like a rapist and more like an addict because he was going through, y’know, literal blood withdrawals.
I swear, that bloodless debuff to rolls is why I meta-gamed and never let him get his stupid teeth near my character again. She’s like, “I mean, it’s not like things can get any weirder and this way he’s not sneaking up on anyone else and getting into a pulp like if he tried that on Lae’zel,” but I was screaming, “You EFFED all my dice rolls, you a-hole!”
The ability to punch him in the face, directly, without even handing him a warning, is still somehow one of my favorite moments. It is one I reloaded just to do it again. I love him so much, but it really did feel satisfying.
Plus, when he sees your leftovers in the morning, he just goes, “Oh no, something terrible happened!” and then continues walking to his fucking tent. Motherfucker was really going to murder me and just pretend to the whole group that he didn’t know anything about it.
Like yeah, I get it. That’s not only very like him, he’s between a rock and a hard place when it comes to his own survival. From where he’s standing, lying his immaculate ass off is the best chance he’s got. The only chance. But dude. That is a bruise he earned.
I am curious about how they animated that, actually. Did someone really hit the actor in the face? That was pretty well done.
A lot of people are going to discuss it; it took me all of three minutes to find several articles covering the problematic nature of this fictional character - it’s not a matter glossed over, and I agree with you that it should not be glossed over.
The moral nature is not, however, in any way the subject of the article linked here - its entire premise is “people playing BG3 are getting familiar with more complex D&D rules through the medium of the game”, including Astarion and rogue mechanics. He’s mentioned once in the whole article, to illustrate that folks including him in his party are getting to grips with positioning and bonus action economy of his class.
Trying to cram moral judgement angle into this feels like conversationally lazy whataboutism.
So, no one’s going to discuss the Astarion-shaped elephant in the room, I take it? In this era of conscientious consent, we’re just going to gloss over the serial rapist allegory because he’s part vampire — it’s, what, just his nature? It’s genuinely disappointing that this seems to get downplayed rather than sparking discourse, all due respect. 🤷🏼♂️
This is the weirdest take I’ve seen on Astarion…
He’s not part vampire, he is a vampire. He is definitionally an evil, undead monster.
But also, he’s not a rapist. He never rapes anyone in the game, and he never tries to rape anyone in the game. When he flirts with you, if you turn him down he backs down immediately and accepts that no means no. Hell, when he tries to bite you if you say no he backs down immediately and accepts that no means no too.
You’re also given plenty of chances to kick him out of your party and to even attack him, precisely because he is an evil undead monster. For Astarion to hang around, you have to explicitly allow him to do so.
Call him a monster, call him evil, but comparing him with a rapist is just so far out there and makes no sense at all.
I agree with most of what you said, and would also not call him a rapist, and don’t think he should get quite a pass on the whole “backs down if you say no when you catch him” part.
He’s not stupid and evil, so when his attempted prey wakes up he doesn’t force the issue. He did still try to, somnophiliac-like, literally prey on an unconsenting unconscious person which is bad. He can be forgiven due to circumstance and dialogue, but that’s a choice that I wouldn’t say that a player would be wrong in making as compared to kicking him out.
Serial? He says you’re the first human he ever tried to bite. Everything before he was literally being mind controlled. If you want to compare it to rape that’s fine, he does sneak up on you, but I don’t see how that’s a “serial rapist allegory”
Is there any moment where he rapes anyone?? He tries to bite your neck once, and never again without consent. He speaks flirtatiously because spoilers
spoiler
Cazador trained him to do so for 200 years to lure victims, he was a slave not a rapist.
He is pain happy and clearly an evil person by all standards concerning the events that he agrees with, but not a rapist.
I think you’re overthinking it. He’s just a vampire and that’s why he acts kinda rapey without any allegorical implications. Then once you know, it’s less rapey and more… Jeffery Dahmer. The same way Lae’zel seems like a huge bitch because that’s just how the Gityanki are.
what is even that “acts kinda rapey”? I have seen none of it. He is murder happy but nothing that reminds me of rape.
I think it’s the way that you find out in game that he’s a vampire, when he creeps up on you for a bite while you’re sleeping.
but… that’s not rape, it’s nothing sexual nor about power not control, it’s just sustenance. I would prefer to use other terms, but in any case, he does that just once and never again, while saying that he acts kinda rapey gives the vibe that it’s something constant. Also they way he acts is not really because of vampirism (well, besides the obvious blood sucking), it’s because he has been a slave for 200 years, trained for deceiving people and bringing pain and suffering, and we know that people that live through those events then without guidance tend to become the perpetrators, which is literally what’s happening to him, he was trained for 200 years to be deceiving, that the pain of others is pleasurable and that control over others is the ultimate goal.
You find him in the sun extatic about the fact that, for the first time in 200 years he can sense the sun and be free. He doesn’t want to help others, he wants to experience LIFE, which for him is what cazador lived as, inflict pain without consequence, gain power for himself, and be free. Once you get to know him, his fear of cazador showing up shows up, with the gur hunter, and he begins to show more aspects of himself, even trying to court you to gain power from it. Then, as he gets to know you and actual feelings being to show up, he stops being so flirtatious and explains why he was doing it, that he has no actual experience in normla relationships and that he wants to explore it slowly, lol.
Anyway, I simp for shart so fuck that guy but he’s no rapist lol.
Oh fuck no! That’s NOT an acceptable diminutive of Shadowheart! 😮🤣
Tell that to the whole community for the last 2 years
I will if they ask lol. Popularity doesn’t make it right 😂
I mean, I personally don’t think it’s very rapey, but I can see how it can be read that way by others.
The first encounter where you catch him trying to bite you and the dialogue preceeding it? It’s pretty sexual/date rapey until you figure out he’s a vampire and he’s been alluding to that and not sex. Knowing after the fact doesn’t change the vibe they definitely did on purpose for the less perceptive players that didn’t notice his fangs or the bite marks on his neck. Personally, I found it pretty funny in retrospect. Which I think was what Larian intended more than any sort of social commentary.
Idk, I’ll remind you that you sleep right next to your other 3 companions, rape didn’t even cross my mind, he comes sneaking and you catch him with his fangs out, if I didn’t notice I would think that he is trying to steal something from me since he’s a rogue. I really don’t see that vibe you mention and with the EA I’ve done that scene more than 10 times. Maybe it’s the fact that he gives the vibes of a predator for a moment that made you think that.
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That’s if you don’t take him at face value - which would have been a great RP point if it weren’t for the fact feeding literally gives him a “Happy” buff and leaves the other party with a “Bloodless” debuff, and that there’s no visible bite mark on your character unless you let him feed on you iirc. Plus, he makes good on his promise to not sneak around the camp again if you go “oh yeah, no worries dude you could’ve just asked”, so even moreso he seems sincere about only feeding on animals since joining up. If anything, he was acting less like a rapist and more like an addict because he was going through, y’know, literal blood withdrawals.
I swear, that bloodless debuff to rolls is why I meta-gamed and never let him get his stupid teeth near my character again. She’s like, “I mean, it’s not like things can get any weirder and this way he’s not sneaking up on anyone else and getting into a pulp like if he tried that on Lae’zel,” but I was screaming, “You EFFED all my dice rolls, you a-hole!”
Honestly better to just let him kill you. 200g for vampire bite ability & a free face punch for that smarmy lovable asshole. Love him, but felt good.
I let him kill me and I don’t think I got the vampire bite ability, is that through a dialogue option?
Yes
The ability to punch him in the face, directly, without even handing him a warning, is still somehow one of my favorite moments. It is one I reloaded just to do it again. I love him so much, but it really did feel satisfying.
Plus, when he sees your leftovers in the morning, he just goes, “Oh no, something terrible happened!” and then continues walking to his fucking tent. Motherfucker was really going to murder me and just pretend to the whole group that he didn’t know anything about it.
Like yeah, I get it. That’s not only very like him, he’s between a rock and a hard place when it comes to his own survival. From where he’s standing, lying his immaculate ass off is the best chance he’s got. The only chance. But dude. That is a bruise he earned.
I am curious about how they animated that, actually. Did someone really hit the actor in the face? That was pretty well done.
A lot of people are going to discuss it; it took me all of three minutes to find several articles covering the problematic nature of this fictional character - it’s not a matter glossed over, and I agree with you that it should not be glossed over.
The moral nature is not, however, in any way the subject of the article linked here - its entire premise is “people playing BG3 are getting familiar with more complex D&D rules through the medium of the game”, including Astarion and rogue mechanics. He’s mentioned once in the whole article, to illustrate that folks including him in his party are getting to grips with positioning and bonus action economy of his class.
Trying to cram moral judgement angle into this feels like conversationally lazy whataboutism.