The title’s a bit disingenuous, I know: this didn’t come out of nowhere. White supremacism is as American as Manifest Destiny and has been heavily intertwined with Nazism from its inception. That overlap with the Republican party, and their gradual slip into the extreme far-right, is evident.
But Seig Heils? Even the most dense among them must know that blatant Nazism hurts their legitimacy in the eyes of the public, even among MAGATs (as is evident right now if you peek at their echo chamber on Reddit). Surely they would have a much easier time pushing their rhetoric and establishing their agenda by keeping a purposeful distance from that sort of indefensible imagery and symbolism. How do they expect to keep cohesion in the military when you imply to the soldiers that they are Nazis now, seig heils and all.
Why Nazis?
Any theories as to where this is coming from? Follow the ketamine-fueled leader? A directive for operative Krasnov, from Putin himself, to implode the country? True Nazi beliefs among the Heritage Foundation, Proud Boys, etc? I just don’t understand how they thought this would fly. I don’t understand anything anymore lol.
What you’re seeing is the end of Truth.
Especially in the face of AI generated photos, we’re dealing with a future where the youth can easily be misled about what actually happened in the past, or even in the current moment. There is very much an upswing of young people questioning established narratives of the past, often under the guise of “well you weren’t there, how do you know for sure?”
Reality is perception, and they are busy managing reality to deny any perception of Nazi behavior.
It’s why Musk especially lies so fluidly and easily in the face of hard evidence.
It’s all perception management, and as long as they keep talking and keep repeating the same lies, a significant number of people will believe them.
Musk still claims it wasn’t a Nazi salute, and a significant number of people believe him. It’s kind of like Trump’s statement that he could shoot someone in the middle of 5th avenue and not lose any support. It’s all attack, never back down, never admit fault.
EDIT: It’s also Bannon’s “flood the zone with shit” strategy at work, too. We’ve been in an Attention Economy for a long time now (at least since 2007 when the iPhone put a screen in everyone’s pocket), and they know people’s attention is limited, so they work to force themselves into people’s limited time and attention spans. If your message is the only one they have time to hear, they’ll probably be more likely to consider yours true. This, for example, is why Musk forced himself into everyone’s Twitter feeds, he’s force feeding himself the limited attention of millions.
So how do we combat a DDOS on truth.
Clearly the previous orders of “truth” were not perfect either, and it’s discontent at the elite and coverups which Musk and Trump and other neofacist populists have manipulated to fuel their attacks on the establishment’s regime of truth. Ironically they are replacing something bad with something far worse.
How can leftists take the discontent with the current elite’s regime of truth and use it for the better ie. recruitment?
Regime of Truth Definition
Regimes of truth is a term coined by philosopher Michel Foucault, referring to a discourse that holds certain things to be “truths”. Foucault sought to explore how knowledge and truth were produced by power structures of society.[
Nazis didn’t come around all of a sudden, either. People have always, on the whole, been horrible. What changes is what is culturally acceptable to talk about.
I knew this was coming after 9/11/2001. That was my first brush with how absolutely vile, ignorant, and racist most US citizens could be.
I used to always say eventually they would bring the tools of the Afghanistan and Iraq Wars home and use against their own citizens and god damn it, it sucks to be right.
Funny you mention 9/11, because with the 2024 election, osama bin laden can finally rest, because his task is complete.
Godamnit! At that time, we were visiting family stateside. It was like the window let in a chill, like a rug pulled out from under you, it was tangible that something in the very fabric of the USA had changed.
I remember telling my grandpa, who fled soviet Bulgaria in WWII, that if this goes on, they can make anyone their enemy. 9/11 turned the hate siphon on full blast, and I was certain they would turn on their own.
So happy he didn’t live to see what the Republicans became.
*god damn it, it sucks to be right.*
I’m starting to feel the same way. When I was a teenager (more than 20 years ago) I wrote a short science fiction story. Being awesome with titles I simply named it “USA is the new nazi”.
Well, fuck.
Yep, we have demonstrated that it’s ok by not doing anything. So now they’re all proud to show the world who they are. And until they start getting their shit rocked, that’s going to continue.
Normalize punching Nazis
If people had always been horrible on the whole, the human race would have died out hundreds of thousands of years ago.
an important historical note is that the Nazis drew a lot of their ideology and argumentation from the American eugenics movement, which has been a major undercurrent in America since the early 1900s and never went away
given the situation, An International History of Fascism, is overdue.
Hitle was a Mussolini fanboy. He got his ideas from Italy.
It’s always been there. Trump just told them it’s ok to be nazi in public? He’ll protect them. Because he is a damn nazi.
This person has paid attention.
It’s been fairly blatant for a while now. The seig heil is coming out now that they feel they’ve won. The goal is for the US to fall this time.
My theory is that they try to push the line on what is acceptable. For example, if you want something say you want 11 but what is acceptable is between 1 and 10. Then an 11 is not possible. But if you normalize 15 and keep pushing that, then 11 doesn’t seem so unreasonable after a while.
I see this being done constantly. Say that your plan is to do something extreme (take Canada), everyone panics and then get what you actually wanted. If nobody reacts, do the extreme thing.
This is it, and we (in the west) have gone so far to the right that the richest man of the world, with a powerful position (formally) near government can do the Hitler salute and the established media just shrugs.
Doing the Hitler salute used to make you a pariah. Now, it’s just a thing the extreme right does to ‘provoke’ (that word I saw used to describe Bannon’s salute in a German newspaper title). In a couple of years, it is normal that the right does this, and the established media doesn’t bat an eye anymore.
It’s clear that you still can’t trust established media to be a force against nazism. They’ll start analysing the nazi takeover as nazi only when it’s much too late, out of fear of not being ‘neutral’.
Nazis are a symbol of power and authority for the far right the same way every international dictator has used hilters style of government to rule and oppress. They aspire to build a country similar to the one of the Nazis. Elements of this include: “christian” values, centralisation of power, uniting of the country, removal of “impures” (trans people).
Eugenics and the idea of a ‘chosen’ race is also powerful - you might be genetically destined for greatness, and the fact you have not achieved it is due to systematic oppression by a hidden conspiracy. People love that shit.
I think OP is asking why narratives around that theme keep coming back to the Nazi narrative, specifically. Why not another example of populist authoritarianism, unburdened by the systematic murder of millions of civilians? Why not invent a new narrative rooted in their own national history?
I think the answer to that is: creativity is hard. Once people have a successful first draft, they tend just to edit that draft rather than pitch it and come up with something completely new. People recognize any borrowed elements and return to the archetype. If you’ve every tried to write anything by committee or group project, you’ve probably seen people choose to edit a horrible first draft, retaining the same basic structure (however flawed) rather than start over. Committees where someone finds an existing, related text online, which then becomes an anchor for whatever the committee had planned to draft.
In short, Nazis serve as ‘best practices’ example for any new ethnic nationalist group by the simple fact of their existence.
I think the answer to that is: creativity is hard.
Ask Curtis Yarvin, seems like most of his “theory” is Ayn Rand rehashed. These people think they’re far more clever than they actually are.
They wrote a nazi manifesto, it got reported on widely, they barely denied it and they won anyway.
Nothing that is happening on their end is the slightest bit unexpected, so I’m just isolating myself from America and Americans as much as I can until I don’t get a choice. However, when I see things like this post by accident I do feel a remarkable urge to grab anybody who expresses disappointment or surprise and shake them by the lapels until they pass out.
It’s not a new thing, and while I don’t think it can be easily distilled into a social media reply. I’ll do my best.
This has been a 40-year process, beginning with Ronald Reagan and continuing incrementally with every president since, including Obama unironically. (Remember how he crushed Occupy and ignored Ferguson and legalized torture on New Years Day?) It’s become stronger as people have become poorer and more willing to not give a shit about the quality of our country’s leadership. Now every person not only has personal biases, but a computer in their pocket constantly telling them everything they think is correct and actively angering them. Hitler would have creamed himself at the thought of being able to dictate social media algorithms.
If people can’t afford to feed their kids or see a doctor, they’re not going to give a shit about fascism, and no matter who we elect, most people can’t afford to see a doctor and adequately feed their kids.
It’s going to be worse now than it had to be. In 2016 people were willing to punch Nazis. Now, you can render a Nazi salute twice, in the seat of government, in front of the entire Democratic leadership… and they will fucking clap and smile.
Just a lack of Nazi hunters.
Where is Wonder Woman when you need her?
Turns out she’s a Nazi too. :(
I was referencing the Wonder Woman of the 70’s TV series (Lynda Carter) who was always fighting against nazis.
Yeah that Linda Carter formed me. No actual woman has come even close to the expectations she set. <sigh>
We need Lieutenant Aldo Raine back on duty (Brad Pitt in Inglorious Basterds)
Non-American here. My brother and dad STILL cling the the narrative of “He’s autistic, he was excited.” and nothing will disusde them from that.
Same with my partner’s American family. They dont believe a word about what’s happening. And if we can’t turn the domestic terrorists in our homes back to reality what chance do we stand turning back the country.
Plenty of answers here but I don’t think anyone has answered this part:
Surely they would have a much easier time pushing their rhetoric and establishing their agenda by keeping a purposeful distance from that sort of indefensible imagery and symbolism.
So here’s my take …
Musk did the sig heil as a fuck you to everyone that doesn’t like him. That’s it.
They just won the election by basically lying, ignoring, and playing for time. They can literally do whatever the fuck they like for the next n years with impunity.
Imagine if Harris had won and in her victory speech said something like “Don’t worry Don, I’ll make sure they give you diapers in jail.” It would’ve been a low blow but we would’ve loved her for it because it’s poking fun at the conservatives for no other reason than to stir them up.
I think there’s another, longer conversation to be had about why racism (and by extension nazism) resonates with voters in 2025, but I’m too weary for that I think.
Lots of discussion points here, but let me address two or three in particular:
blatant Nazism hurts their legitimacy in the eyes of the public
Nope. No, it really doesn’t. Trump was never a legitimate contender from his opponents’ perspective (due to dirty foreign money) and his true believers would stand buy him as he ate a live baby on TV.
Take a look at some approval polls that show he still has significant support from Americans. (Likewise with Musk, likewise with DOGE.)
Second point: It doesn’t matter. He doesn’t NEED legitimacy or approval any more. He’s in power, Musk is at his right hand, and the two of them are acting with complete impunity. Seriously, they should both be hauled off in chains and tried for treason, not to mention hate crimes and hundreds of less-sexy crimes. But they’re not, and so it just doesn’t fucking matter.
Thirdly, where did it come from? We’re discovering now that the Christian hard-right has been carefully staging this for HALF A CENTURY! Since not long after Roe v. Wade, they have been laying the groundwork for what Project 2025 is carrying out right now: A ruthless coup backed by religious extremists and foreign opponents. The Heritage Foundation was founded in 1973. PNAC was founded in 1997. And there are more.
Fundamentally, Trump’s first term was to see how much they could get away with. When they lost the 2020 election, the Nazis spent four years purging the party of unfaithful (i.e. people with either thoughts or morals, or maybe even both), then won last year, and were finally able to remove their veil: The government no longer needs the will of the people to execute their extremist plans.
it’s a combo of trolling and attention seeking. “there’s no such thing as bad press” and all that.
we should point it out, condemn it, but not engage in arguments with them about what is and isn’t a sig heil.
and when they pop up in other places trying to talk about other stuff, just bring up the fact that they threw a Nazi salute from time to time.
the most important thing is to focus on their evil policies and actions. but we can’t forget their performative evil.
Small nit: they didnt just “throw a Nazi salute”; they openly and loudly declared they were Nazis, and they have done so many times in their conventions
It’'s because the overall intent is not to unify the country under one government. It’s to keep the America fighting with itself so that it can’t interfere in Russian, Saudi and Chinese ambitions for an autocratic oligarchy. It’s in their best interests if America descends into the worst version of fascism that the world can dream up, and Trump’s GOP is entirely on their payroll.
Any potential positive government action by the GOP for the American people runs contrary to those goals, so they’ve turned to the tactics of fear and intimidation to maintain their hold on the population. Each public nazi salute is intentional, designed to strike fear and controversy into the hearts of the citizenry and publicly tarnish America’s image on the world stage.
Look at how Trump ran on inflation, but the only actions he’s taken have been to attack people’s livelihood or erode trust in federal and state institutions. He’s literally dismantling the federal government from the inside, but all anyone wants to talk about is the nazi salutes.
This is an intentional distraction.
This sort of thing doesn’t work in a strong democracy with an un-compromised media, but our democracy has been hollowed out by the cancer of Citizen’s United, rendering the power of a citizen’s vote near worthless, and by the likely election fraud performed by Musk. So they’re gloating and glorifying the symbol as a sign that no one can stop them.
See, the people in charge right now don’t care if the US collapses. They WANT it to. America has been the symbol of democratic freedom for the entire world. With the US abandoning that fight, there’s no real geopolitical power strong enough to take its place.
Which is exactly what Russia, China, and the Saudis want.
