Means of production are collectively owned, but the the moneyed elite is somehow still accumulating power and wealth while the working class suffers
Means of production are not collectively owned, but the moneyed elite is somehow gone, and wealth and power are in the hands of the workers, who ensure that the creation of wealth benefits all
Not saying a welfare state is #2, but I’m interested to hear if #1 is a better socialist state.
I would say that at the core of it, option 2 is contradictory. Power is not in the hands of the workers for so-long as as the means of production are not in the hands of the workers; without economic power, which is what ownership of the means of production is, all other forms of power are vulnerable to whoever the owners of the means of production are.
That being said, of the two, I would say #1 is the more socialist state, but #2 is the more desirable state if the inherent contradiction was able to be resolved in some permanent and stable way.
I generally regard myself as an anti-capitalist first and foremost, and a socialist only by default; I’m not married to the idea that workers owning the means of production is the only way forward, or the only moral formulation of society.
At the same time, I also can’t think of any immediately applicable alternatives, so I’m all-in on backing socialism in practical terms.
Not really.
Which is the better embodiment of socialism:
Not saying a welfare state is #2, but I’m interested to hear if #1 is a better socialist state.
I would say that at the core of it, option 2 is contradictory. Power is not in the hands of the workers for so-long as as the means of production are not in the hands of the workers; without economic power, which is what ownership of the means of production is, all other forms of power are vulnerable to whoever the owners of the means of production are.
That being said, of the two, I would say #1 is the more socialist state, but #2 is the more desirable state if the inherent contradiction was able to be resolved in some permanent and stable way.
I generally regard myself as an anti-capitalist first and foremost, and a socialist only by default; I’m not married to the idea that workers owning the means of production is the only way forward, or the only moral formulation of society.
At the same time, I also can’t think of any immediately applicable alternatives, so I’m all-in on backing socialism in practical terms.