Rewrite: September 2024

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  • OpenStars@discuss.online
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    7 days ago

    First, do whatever you want - I am not here to tell you what to do:-). That is indeed a highly personal decision, and I for one will not begrudge you to pick either option that you feel will work best for you.

    Second, I used to think similarly. I’m telling you, those Innuendo Studios videos will change everything about how you think in these terms. e.g. you simply cannot talk with Trump supporters, or hexbear members - they don’t even “use logic”, as a normal person would. Though they do use it like a 5-year-old toddler would: as a weapon, if they think they can gain advantage by making mouth-noises that attempt to sound somewhat vaguely like it. It’s fucking exhausting to constantly analyze, decide, and attempt to respond (or not) to such - especially when their favorite trick is to “control the conversation”, by ignoring whatever you actually said and instead pivot it over to some other matter entirely (but only until they sense that they can’t win that way, and then they’ll switch strategies entirely on-the-fly) - and quite frankly ain’t nobody got time for dat nonsense, imho. But again, ofc you should free to do whatever you want…

    I do want to warn you though that it is a fundamental principle of the world/universe that people automatically start to become more like those that you surround yourself with - e.g. even if you wanted to stop drinking alcohol, if you surround yourself with friends whose major activity is to talk at a bar, then it would become difficult to hold that line… (note I myself drink alcohol all the time, and just a few weeks ago visited a friend, ofc our first instincts were to meet at a happy hour, it just makes financial sense and is fun!.. - so anyway I’m not trying to offer any judgement there, just illustrate the principle that if someone were to decide against it, that would be difficult to maintain in the face of others who continually make the exact opposite decision).

    And I did not like what Reddit was doing to me. I was being more snarky, more contentious, more pedantic, less kind, less considerate of others’ opinions, etc. I started to worry that it would affect my relationships at my new job. Reddit has a… “culture” that is quite well-known for being that way. And we may think that it won’t affect us - but it will. Maybe if I had already had established relationships with these new people, but I did not, and these “new” ones, the first after I found and joined Reddit, seemed vulnerable to my having had to interact with so many Reddi-trolls (as a mod of a couple small gaming subs over there).

    Third, I never said that “everyone sucks there” - for any of those instances. Though like Reddit, there are… known patterns of behaviors, that most of them display. Once or twice is indeed an outlier - and given enough time we will see people from every instance do something to piss us off (unless the instance is extremely tiny; also maybe someone is just having a bad day, so their behavior not only does not reflect their entire instance but even themselves, usually?) but when you see something like >50-90% of the people from an instance doing the precise same thing, it most definitely becomes a “pattern”.

    You asked a question, and got >800 responses, most saying that you were not imagining things: there really is a very noticeable “pattern” of behavior that people have come to expect from them. If you want to ignore those responses and… “enjoy” your time with them, then go ahead. I tried the same, with users of lemmy.ml. But if it helps to hear my story, eventually I got over it, just blocked them all, and I have not regretted that once since. Yes I do miss out on some posts from those communities - but I still see posts from people from those instances on other communities that I am subscribed to, and also likewise comment replies to me, so note that a user-block is really a pathetically un-powerful, soft thing, unlike full, hard, strict defederation.

    For an example, you need look no further than the other reply to my previous message, where they said:

    You got made fun of once and can’t seem to let it go, from reading the mod log they seemed confused by what you were even trying to say. The mod message was one of their “wtf” emojis

    I can still see it, I just don’t get a “notification” for it, each time they ignore my consent and decide to (attempt to) push their thoughts at me regardless. Btw, if it helps YOU, I will explain what they are attempting to do here: first, they try to pin the blame on me as if I am the one being unreasonable (the very first word starts with YOU, as an attempt to speak in a confident tone of voice, as is proper for such an accusation), also they ignore how (as I said many, MANY times) people would continually respond to me, days and days and days and days and days and WEEKS later (i.e., my response is one thing, but who was it that first started the whole having a hard time “letting something go”?:-P). Ignoring my consent is considered “abusive” behavior, in most parts of the world. Also, I totally forgot about the incident that they are referring to, but this person, in their reply, conveniently entirely ignores that other events than that have occurred. e.g. I mentioned an incident saying something about Biden v. gas prices, whereas this incident says nothing about Biden, nothing about gas prices, nothing about inflation, therefore this must be the only incident that has ever happened, and MUST be what I was talking about… right? 🤪 I like to think that even as a 5-year-old toddler, I would not fall into such an extremely obvious logical fallacy as this, to presume that I know everything, when in fact it is painfully obvious that this person is talking out of their ass. So should I respond to them - and to everyone else that wants to take a go at me as well, for daring to say that e.g. Biden lowered gas prices? Or am I simply not allowed to speak of Biden, or perhaps it’s rather the topic of gas prices, or inflation, that is forbidden to ever speak of - unless ofc I happen to agree with their POV? And is that like… ever, or only on their own instance, or perhaps wherever their instance name gets brought up - what are the rules here? Moreover, why are they the ones making those rules, and constantly shifting them whenever it suits them? And why is Russia=good, America=bad, rather than oh say genocide (whoever does it)=bad, and capitalism=bad too, but what other options do we even have (derp… Russia is capitalistic too…).

    Also, if I were to respond, what manner of nonsensical “logic”(al fallacies) would I subsequently be presented with, in their next reply? I came to the Fediverse to enjoy reasoned discourse… but in the above paragraph, notice how argumentative I became? Less kind, less considerate, more argumentative, more pedantic… see the pattern? I will spell it out just to make it crystal clear: it is Reddit all over again, which I tried to leave behind, but on Lemmy.ml and far more the other two Big Three instances, I continually find that it is here on the Fediverse as well - though not equally distributed. I tend to not have such a form of… shall we call them “low-effort” exchanges with someone from most other instances, e.g. lemm.ee or sh.itjust.works, and if the opportunity does ever present itself, it is trivially easy enough to block just one person and move on with my life. But it is fucking exhausting to try to keep up with the constant barrage of such, so when I start noticing these extremely obvious patterns like 98-99% observations of trolling behavior coming from accounts located on one of the Big Three instances, yeah the opportunity to stop virtually all of it with a handful of keystrokes and clicks was too tempting to pass up. And you’ve seen it yourself, but anyway, choose to not block them if you want, though I made my choice to do so. It is good to have choices to pick from:-).

    What are your goals, that you hope to accomplish by being here on the Fediverse? It is something to ponder anyway, and when you are able to answer that, then you should find your answer much more readily, as to whether not blocking those instances will help you attain your goals.

    • Diva (she/her)@lemmy.ml
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      7 days ago

      I can still see it, I just don’t get a “notification” for it, each time they ignore my consent and decide to (attempt to) push their thoughts at me regardless.

      How is it ignoring your consent if I have no way of telling if you’ve blocked my instance or not?

      Maybe you should write a few more rambling paragraphs complaining, you bring up the tactic of diversions, but it’s really just projection as you’re a flagrant user of it yourself (writing lengthy paragraphs that never address the issue is one example). You never responded to my main point here

      You made a huge wall of text with some claims not borne out by your links, did you even fully read what you were citing or did you skim looking for things to confirm your argument?

      From you:

      Took a poll on which other instances to deferate from, then promptly ignored the results that said no and defederated from them anyway:-P lemm.ee for instance had 41 votes to keep it and only 4 for it to go, but despite the additional order of magnitude and some passionate responses defending the former (e.g. “But man we should at least stay federated with lemm.ee, that instance’s admin has been very reasonable and it hasn’t caused much trouble at all; nothing that banning any troublemakers can’t fix.”), they defederated from it anyway. An

      From the hexbear discussion:

      However, as expressed by users belonging to marginalized groups, comments from .ee users are often lib-shit and in some cases outright hostile. While many on hexbear love dunking on these lost libs the duty to protect marginalized users is much more important

      Again quoting you:

      at sh.itjust.works, where they thought long & hard about it (mind you this is an EXTREMELY permissive server, chock-full of reasonable-minded people,

      The hexbear thread expressed the same rationale to block “shits fulla chuds” the fact that you characterize them as reasonable-minded people speaks volumes about you personally.

      Just checking in with how someone from a marginalized community felt about this situation: https://hexbear.net/post/497935

      Is posting a meme to “own the liberals” worth your comrades getting more trauma from bigots harassing them?

      No its not.

      you’ve had your laugh, but it should end

      Ban them all, SJW, lemm.ee, lemmy, the programmer nazi edglords. Keep Lemmygrad.

      I was ready to take you seriously but if you’re misrepresenting your very first points that’s a lot harder. You’ve been doing more than that, you’ve been inverting the actual history and in the process ommitted the actual options of marginalized people to suit your narrative.

      quoting you again:

      If you enjoy LGBTQIA+ content, it is everywhere, e.g. the variety of blahaj’s that exist - the most popular of which is https://lemmy.blahaj.zone/, with the highest number of users (and to reveal my own bias, I’ve never seen anything written from their admin, Ada, that I have not thoroughly enjoyed reading

      Hexbear is majority non-cis, and its weekly trans megatheads are extremely active. I already looked into this, they have done several polls, and have chatted with a number of them since I started moderating /c/transgender

      But I advise to steer well clear of bigots. Except of course to learn about the situation - definitely check it out, and then you’ll know.

      Are you trying to imply that they’re bigots now? On what basis? If anything you’ve said enough to make me suspect you more than anyone else.

    • EABOD25@lemm.ee
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      7 days ago

      My goal is to have a chuckle or general discussion despite what side people are on. I believe light teasing of the other side (and even your own side) opens serious dialog because you are acknowledging your side is imperfect, just like the other side. If you tease the other side and take yourself too serious, then that’s bullying.

      Second, and with all due respect, everything you say can be easily summarized. And please don’t misunderstand, I believe you’re absolutely right in everything you have said, and I appreciate your detail to make sure you’re not misunderstood. However, every comment has been an essay. That takes so much mental energy for you. I can respect the effort you put into your comments because, godamn, it takes a lot with how much work you put into them, truly kudos.

      However, I see it as building a front page for a resume. If you put too much meat onto the plate, then they’re never going to eat the potatoes. You want a filet mignon with a baked potato. I absolutely mean no offense. Just wanted to say that you could say the same thing with less words

      • OpenStars@discuss.online
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        7 days ago

        It sounds like you would enjoy good-faith discussions with reasonable people, regardless of - or even especially if their “side” differs from yours. But, and here I want to make a huge distinction b/t “teasing” vs. this, how do you feel about e.g. brigading/trolling/abusive behavior, when it is done by people on your same “side”, against those dirty, stinky, rotten people on that “other side”? I have never once seen an example of a good-natured discussion on hexbear.net, though I imagine that it surely exists from what people say, yet buried underneath an entire mountain of the “other stuff” that I would not enjoy wading through, looking for the good stuff.

        Ironically, that is exactly what I went to Reddit for. And I saw it, in the historical sense, even participated in it here & there infrequently. Though every month that passed I saw it less & less often, as more & more people clamped down on their opinions, b/c of not wanting to have to deal with the push-back from teenagers wanting to use Reddit more as “social media” (where you are allowed, nay encouraged to vomit up your feewings, rather than e.g. search for a logical exposition that already exists and thereby learn by reading rather than opening your mouth to speak). It got to where you couldn’t block enough of them, when they outnumber you and more & more continue to add themselves, each one refusing to learn, each one clamoring to speak (there’s a selection bias here I know, among those that do - but anyway there sure are a lot of them). e.g., 3 posts back-to-back in r/Android like “which phone do I purchase”, “which phone do I buy”, “which Android phone should I get” - all posted within mere hours of one another, none desiring to realize that the question has already been asked, that there is a megathread designated for such, that people might need some additional detail in order to answer it, and that by constantly clamoring like that, they were driving away the very people that have the most knowledge to have been able to answer them, plus taking away the latter’s ability to have conversations about matters of actual substance. So more & more it got to where the blind were leading the blind, b/c the people willing to actually answer thus were not the same as those who wrote long, drawn-out essays full of actual facts, e.g. results of actual tests performed by them or someone they trust, and the latter not without good reason.

        As I just started to do with you, with my essays. Sorry - it’s a defensive mechanism, when people (such as done in that other reply) start to challenge me, and I very much want to respond with FACTS… for all the good it will do, to some. While for reasonable people, as you said, the deluge isn’t even needed at all. e.g., all those details about the “event” the other commenter mentioned - Biden, gas prices, inflation - these types of “facts” only matter to people engaging in good faith. Those facts may influence your decision about something-or-other… but not theirs. And if it were me, I would want the facts, so I offer them:-). But there is a time & a place, you are right. I just wanted to point out that the longest paragraphs were those where I even mentioned that I was slipping back into my old habits, developed on Reddit, when having to deal with people that blithely ignore the facts - at which point I should remember more readily that yet more facts, unlike if our roles had been reversed, aren’t going to be convincing.

        Though you are a different person than me. Perhaps you can turn off certain portions of your brain that I cannot, and are okay to delve deep into the dark realms, to find something there of substance. I would argue that you don’t even need an account for that - simply reading what is already there should be sufficient, but if you want to ask them questions… no, no, no, that still seems very inefficient, for the very simple fact that: you cannot extract blood from a stone. i.e., you can’t get something from someone when they don’t have it to begin with, so if what you seek is “wisdom” or “understanding”, even of “their side”, then notably I see no evidence that these people even know what their own “side” is espousing, much less have the ability to convey it clearly in words that will be meaningful to you. What *I* see is that they enjoy “dunking on” people, but the “facts” that they choose to use to do that with… are noticeably lacking in substance (which isn’t to say that everything that they claim is incorrect - even a stopped watch is correct twice a day - just that they won’t likely be able to back up their beliefs with more than merely links to articles that themselves are full of logical errors, inconsistencies with actual reality, and “theory” that ignores practical existence). Overall you can learn something yes… but e.g. if you want to know something about monkeys, it is significantly faster to ask an anthropologist than to ask the monkey. But perhaps I am conveying this all wrong: if you watch Innuendo Studios then I am positive that Ian Danskin can explain it much better than I:-). Something along the lines of… they want to live in a magical reality that is (somehow) “correct”, but they are willing to take very many unsubstantiated shortcuts to get there, except most of them (it seems the ones who are most likely to speak outside of their echo chambers) don’t even know what those fundamentals are, and instead just enjoy “dunking on” others who do not know them, i.e. the in-words for the in-crowd act as magical passwords, while the out-group can go fuck itself. To be fair, I see this irl too, and a lot of it (Musk-worship, Bezos-…tolerance, etc.) is a LOT more damaging than whatever is going on over on hexbear, though that does not mean that I enjoy it whenever/wherever I do see it.

        • EABOD25@lemm.ee
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          6 days ago

          No brigading, or trolling to make someone angry. Trying to bully people into submission isn’t ok. A light poking is ok as long as it’sin good faith, but really just talk to people like you’re face-to-face.

          • Diva (she/her)@lemmy.ml
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            6 days ago

            I’ve been taking to the other guy like we’re face to face, that’s just how I talk to people who talk shit they can’t back up.