Hey folks
I have been receiving a lot of messages every single day about federation with hexbear. Some of our users are vehemently against it, others are in full support. The conversation does not seem to be dying down, rather, the volume of messages I receive about it seems to be increasing, so I am opening this public space where we can openly discuss the topic.
I am going to write a wall of text about my own thoughts on the situation, I’m sorry, but no tl;dr this time, and I ask anybody participating in this thread to first read through this post before commenting.
Before I go any further, I want to be clear that for anybody who participates here, it is required to focus on the quality of your posts. That means:
- Be kind to each other, even if you disagree
- Use arguments rather than calling people names
- Realize that this is a divisive topic, so your comments should be even more thoughtful than usual
With that out of the way, there are a few things I want to cover.
On defederation in general
First of all, I am a firm believer that defederation must be reserved only for cases where all other methods have failed. If defederation is used liberally, then a small group of malicious users can effectively completely shut down the federated network, by simply creating the type of drama between instances which would inevitably result in defederation. In my view, federation is the biggest strength of Lemmy compared to any centralized discussion forum, so naturally I think maintaining federation by default is an important goal in general.
I am also a believer in the value of deplatforming hateful content, but I think defederation is not the best way to do this. Banning individual users, banning communities and establishing a culture of mutual support between mods and admins of different instances should be the first line of defense against such content. There are some further steps that can be taken before defederation as well, but these are not really documented anywhere (in order to prevent circumvention). The point is: for myself, defederation is the absolute last resort, only to be used when it is completely clear that other methods are ineffective.
Finally, I am wary of creating a false expectation among lemm.ee users that lemm.ee admins endorse all users and communities and content on instances we are federated with. Here at lemm.ee, we use a blocklist for federation, which means our default apporach is to federate with all new instances. We do not have the resources (manpower, skills and knowledge) necessary to pass judgement on all instances which exist out there, as a result, users on lemm.ee are expected to curate their own content to quite a high degree. In addition to downvoting and/or reporting as necessary, individual lemm.ee users are also able to block specific users and communities, and the ability to block entire instances is coming very soon as well.
Having said all that, in a situation where all other methods do indeed fail, defederation is not out of the question. Making such a call is up to the discretion of lemm.ee admins, and doing it as a last resort is completely in line with our federation policy.
Regarding hexbear
Hexbear is an established Lemmy instance, focused on many flavors of leftism. They have quite a large userbase who are very active on Lemmy (often so active that they leave the impression brigading all popular Lemmy posts). One important thing to note is that while some forms of bigotry seem to be quite accepted by many hexbear users (but seemingly not by mods - more on that below), they at least are very protective of LGBT rights (and yes, I am quite certain that they are not just pretending to do this, as many users seem to believe). Additionally, while I have noticed quite high quality posts from hexbear users, there are also several users there who seem to really enjoy trolling and baiting (very reminiscent of 4chan-type “for the lulz” posting), and it’s important to note that this kind of posting is in general allowed on hexbear itself.
The reason this whole topic is important to so many people right now (despite hexbear being a relatively old instance), is that hexbear only recently enabled federation. A combination of their volume of posts, their strong convictions, the excitement about federation, and the aforementioned trolling has made them very visible to almost all Lemmy users, and this has sparked discussions about the value of federation with hexbear on a lot of Lemmy instances.
My own experience with hexbear
I want to write down my own experience with interacting with hexbear users, mods, and admins over the past few days. I believe this experience will highlight why I am hesitant to advocate for immediate full defederation from hexbear at this point in time, and am for now still more in favor of taking action on a more individual user basis. Please read and see how you feel about the situation afterwards.
Background
My first real contact with hexbear users was in the comments section of a post in this meta community requesting defederation from hexbear by @glimpythegoblin@lemm.ee. That post is now locked, because several hexbear users very quickly started doing the aforementioned “for the lulz” type spamming of meme images in the comments (these are actually just emojis, but they are rendered as full-size images on all instances other than the source instance, due to a current Lemmy bug).
I did not want to take further actions in that thread in general (for archival purposes), but I did take one action, which in retrospect was a mistake: I removed a comment which contained the hammer and sickle symbol. I ignorantly associated this symbolism with Kremlin propaganda, and the atrocities my own people suffered at the hands of the soviet union during the previous century. Many users (including hexbear users) correctly (and politely) pointed out to me in DMs that the symbol has a much broader use than just as the symbol of the USSR, and people elsewhere in the world may not associate it with the USSR at all. I am grateful for users who pointed this out to me without resorting to personal attacks.
Let me be clear here: while I do not have anything against leftism or communist ideas in general (in fact in today’s world, I think discussion of such ideas is quite necessary), Kremlin propaganda has no place on lemm.ee. Any dehumanizing talking points of the Kremlin on lemm.ee are treated as any other bigotry, and if communist symbolism is used in context of Kremlin propaganda (that is the context in which I have been exposed to it throughout my whole life), then it will still be removed. But there is no blanket ban on communist symbolism in general on lemm.ee, and discussing and advocating for leftist and communist topics (as distinct from the imperialist and dehumanizing policies of the Kremlin) is certainly allowed on lemm.ee.
Hexbear user response
Coming back to the events of the past few days: soon after my removal of the comment containing the symbol from the meta thread, two posts popped up on hexbear. One was focused on insulting and spreading lies about me personally. Another was focused on diminishing the horrors of the soviet occupation in my country. In the comments under both of these posts (and in a few other threads on hexbear), I noticed some seriously disturbing bigotry against my people. There were comments which reflected the anti-Estonian propaganda of the current Russian state, things like:
- Suggesting that my people has no right to exist
- Stating that my people (and other Baltic nations) are subhuman
- Claiming that anybody critical of both nazi and soviet occupations is themselves a nazi and a holocaust denier
I expect to hear such statements from the Russian state - here in Estonia, we are subjected to this and other kinds of bigotry constantly from Russian media - but to see it spread openly in non-Russian channels is extremely disturbing. Such bigotry is completely against lemm.ee rules in general. Additionally, my identity is public information, because I feel it’s important for the integrity of lemm.ee that I don’t hide behind anonymity. Considering this, I’m sure you can understand why I am very worried about my own safety when people leave comments in many unrelated threads (where my original posts are not even visible), baselessly calling me a nazi and a holocaust denier.
Note that the goal of this post is not to start a new debate in the comments about the the repressions of the soviet union in Estonia or other occupied territories, but if the topic interests any users, I can recommend the 2006 documentary The Singing Revolution (imdb). The trailer is a bit cheesy, but the actual film contains lots of historical footage from the soviet occupation, and also many interviews with people who experienced it, who share stories which are deeply familiar to all Estonians. If anybody is interested in further discussion, then I suggest making a post about it in the Estonian community here: !eesti@lemm.ee.
Hexbear admin response
After the above events had played out, I reached out to hexbear admins for clarification on their moderation policies and how they handle such cases. I was actually very happy with their response:
- They immediately removed the personal attacks and dehumanizing comments containing Kremlin propaganda from Hexbear, and assured me that such content is always handled by mods
- They told me that while there are all kinds of leftists on hexbear, Russian disinformation is generally either refuted in comments or removed by mods
- They implemented some additional rules on hexbear to try and reduce the trolling experienced by many other instances, including ours: https://hexbear.net/post/352119
My personal take-aways
Let me play the devil’s advocate here and employ some “self-whataboutism”: among all users that have been banned on lemm.ee for bigotry, the majority were actually not users from other instances, and in fact people with lemm.ee accounts. If we judge any larger instance only by bigoted posts that some of its users make, then we might as well declare all instances as cesspools and close down Lemmy completely. I believe it’s far more useful to judge instances based on moderation in response to such content. Just as we remove bigoted content from lemm.ee, I have also witnessed bigoted content being removed from hexbear.
At the same time, I am aware of some internal conflict between hexbear users over the more strict moderation they are now starting to employ, and I am definitely keeping an eye on that situation and how admins handle it.
I am also still quite worried about the amount of distinct users on hexbear who have posted Kremlin propaganda. I so far don’t have reason to believe that these users are employed by the Russian state, but the fact that they are spreading the same hateful content which can be seen on Russian television seems problematic to say the least, and it remains to be seen if moderators can truly keep up with such content.
Where thing stand right now
I am not convinced that we are currently at a point where the “last resort” of defederation is necessary. This is based on the presumption that our moderation workload at lemm.ee will not get out of hand just due to users from that particular instance. My current expectation is that as the excitement of federation calms down (and as new rules on hexbear go into effect), the currently relatively high volume of low effort trolling will be replaced by more thoughtful posts. If this is not the case then we will certainly need to re-evaluate things.
Additionally, nothing is changing about our own rules regarding bigotry. Especially relevant in the context of Kremlin propaganda, I want to say that dehumanizing anybody is not allowed on lemm.ee (hopefully I do not have to spell it out, but this of course includes Ukrainians, LGBT folks, and others that the Kremlin despises), and action will be taken against any users who do this, regardless of what instance they are posting from.
Finally, I am very interested to hear thoughts and responses from our own users. I am super grateful to anybody who actually took the time to read through this massive dump of my own thoughts, and I am very interested to get a proper understanding of how our users feel about what I’ve written here. Please share any thoughts in the comments.
This was why my eyebrows raised when I saw the Hexbear admin response when they claim that “Russian disinformation is generally either refuted in comments or removed by mods”. Kremlin propaganda is rife in communities like chapotraphouse, and it certainly seems like the mods there let anything slide as long as it is isn’t outright incitement to violence.
I challenged claims made in a couple of different anti-Ukraine posts and despite the fact there were maybe one or two users whose responses were thoughtful, the majority were outright calling me an idiot and a
retarded liberal(edit: correction; dumb fuck)So far, my impression of HB’s userbase is pretty negative because the posts on there that make the front page here tend to be the more shit-posty ones.
That said, I appreciate @sunaurus for the stance he’s taking. There is some positive and thoughtful content on HB - you just have to block the noisier and more idiotic communities so it doesn’t get drowned out.
Yeah, and Russian propaganda is one thing, but he hasn’t mentioned Chinese PC one, and I noticed a lot of hexbear users being in support of them, which to me, is as much an anathema to the left as the Kremlin is.
I vehemently disagree with Hexbear’s support of the modern CPC but I don’t think that makes them bots or indoctrinated or whatever, they just have a different viewpoint on the matter and it doesn’t take much prodding to get past the shitposting and to get a fairly detailed/nuanced understanding of why from a lot of users on the site. Same with their thoughts about Russia and Ukraine and such. Again, I disagree w/ the majority of people on Hexbear on this issue, but you wont get attacked if you engage in good faith (at least, I don’t) and people are more than willing to explain themselves.
I fundamentally disagree w/ the notion that there is any significant amount of actual “Kremlin bots” or “CPC bots”-I mean this community has been its own isolated thing, a dwindling relic of an old Subreddit, for 3 years before federation happened, what’d be the strategic value anyhow? They all show their humanness if you give them the time and the good faith, so to speak.
That’s interesting to hear, I understand it better now.
🥰
Is that PC “Parti Communiste”? As an FYI that is admittedly slightly off-topic, the official name in English is the Communist Party of China or CPC. A lot of anglophones call it the CCP to connect it to the USSR (CCCP in Russian) or just because they are repeating what anglophone journos call it uncritically.
I initially meant PCC, but yeah the proper one is CPC.
To be accurate, I don’t think anyone on Hexbear thinks modern-day Russia is a communist, socialist, or leftist state. Generally, we believe Russia is a capitalist state, led by profit-seeking oligarchs, and that Putin is just the leader of those oligarchs. No one on Hexbear actually thinks Putin is personally a good human being. The reason Hexbear appears “pro-Russia” is because we refute the claim that Putin launched the war against Ukraine because he is ontologically evil, a demon, a crazy man who has lost his mind, literally Hitler, etc. We recognize the complexity of the situation Putin was put in and see his launch of the war as a semi-logical response to decades of past history. Would it be better if the war never happened? Yes. But did the war just come out of nowhere? No. It’s complicated. It’s not a Hollywood movie. There are no action heroes.
Also, I don’t think anyone on Hexbear thinks modern-day China is a fully communist or socialist state right now. We are more hopeful that it will BECOME a fully socialist state in the next generation or two than most are. This is mainly because of the long list of actions that Xi has taken that are in line with orthodox Marxist philosophy. For fuck’s sake, Xi has a PhD in Marxism. That is not a joke - the president of China went back to school in his 30s and got a university degree in Marxist studies. Compare that to any US presidential candidate, who probably has never read a single page of Marx. It’s a stark difference. Hundreds of years of European propaganda about “Oriental Despotism” makes many in the west think that China is, by definition, evil. Heaxbear generally believes the situation to be more complex and nuanced. I mean, Obama literally ordered the extrajudicial killing of an American citizen (along with thousands of foreigners in the middle east) and yet most Americans think of the Chinese government as “more authoritarian” than America. Sure, okay. The numbers don’t add up.
But overall I think the discussion on foreign policy can be respectful and productive. Few will be convinced, but the debate can sharpen both sides. I appreciate any instance that has the patience to deal with Hexbear and our neurotic, overly-detailed diatribes!
I don’t know what word is supposed to be there, but we can’t have called you that because it is literally not allowed by our instance.
I was paraphrasing, but yes you’re right.
On review, the actual phrase they used was “dumb fuck”.
I’ve seen that or worse thrown around on pretty much every internet community I’ve ever seen. The only difference is whether it is popular/ever removed by mods. On literally every internet community I’ve seen or heard of, there are insults that crop up with the same amount of intended impact, even if they are less profane (think of all the snarky comments or outright diatribes you’ve seen about how ignorant or wrong someone is). And profanity is not some exceptional line, either.
So you use slurs that are banned on our instance and act like we’re the ones not being civil? Real self aware you are.
Our mods tolerate a lot of things that would get you banned on reddit, such as calling for the death of nazis as long as it’s not what we call “fedposting” (actionable threats of violence that would also work as an FBI honeypot). On the other hand, our moderation team is probably the most hardline one on the entire internet when it comes to punishing transphobia and other queerphobic sentiments, and we do not take kindly to other forms of bigottry on there, either. For example, using the r-slur or other ableist language will reliably get your post deleted. If you have a habit of calling people you disagree with autistic or schizophrenic, you can prepare for getting banned from our instance. We look out for our neurodivergent comrades. Then there’s the entire culture against hornyposting that we have. Hexbear is very different from the rest of the internet when it comes to sexualizing and objectifying people. We’re not a sex-negative instance, but we’re hentai free and don’t want things to get creepy and uncomfortable in our place. We have a fairly elaborate culture of what goes into a content warning, too. We’re most definitely not an “anything goes” free speech absolutist instance. We’re a staunchly leftist, intersectional, antifascist community and we actively fight to keep it that way so that all marginalized people can feel safe around us.
That’s fair. When I spoke earlier, I didn’t mean to give the impression that HB is your typical fReE sPeEch zone that permits slurs against minorities.
That said, personal and vitriolic attacks against non-radical-leftists who disagree with or challenge the anti-NATO, anti-Ukraine, anti-West status quo in anyway seem to be absolutely okay, as far as I can see. And I say this as someone who considers themself to be a social democrat on many issues and agrees with most progressive causes in general.
This has been my experience as well. There are a lot of great things they’re discussing over there and in general I do like the fact that they challenge the Western-driven beliefs on politics/economics, however, the vitriol against anyone else less hardlined left and not anti-NATO/anti-West is disappointing and a put off. While I agree that capitalism is an immoral and abhorrent system, and have many qualms with the IMFand military driven western hegemony, I don’t see anything I the Russian or Chinese leadership that suggests either of those are any better. They’re oppression in a different coat. But saying that on the instance gets you labeled as someone who’s still sucking down western propaganda, without an ounce of irony re: CPC and Russian propaganda systems
okay but communists have been yelling at communists for not being communist enough since before marx put pen to paper
😔
anti-fascists except for the Kremlin propaganda that’s coming from the fascist regime in Russia?
but I guess at least people can’t use the R-word, just heavily insinuate that Ukraine deserves to be invaded and that both side suck in that conflict.
We didn’t call you that because there is an incredibly strong site culture against using ableist slurs and anybody who comes into our instance and says that slur is banned on the spot. I literally can’t even see it because the hexbear instance automatically changes it to say removed instead. I would encourage you not to sling around ableist slurs in future.
tbf it seems like the majority of people there replying to you are replying in good faith, though it is obviously not good even when a significant minority of people are mean/rude. I do agree with you in part with what you were saying on there (not in full as I do not feel generous towards the US motivation towards its support for Ukraine) and honestly I’ve never been receiving hostility for my position when I’ve talked about it on here (see my recent post history if you want proof). I guess people are seeing the new @lemmy people commenting and getting jumpy unjustifiably and thus being more harsh. I hope that sort of thing goes away when they’re more used to seeing other lemmys in their communities but I don’t blame you for feeling not great about it (even if plenty were also engaging in good faith that doesn’t get rid of the bad faith ones). I hope it changes.