No, I also found the way he handled it really distasteful. Even before his response, just generally the way the whole thing was attempted under a veil wasn’t great. The actions taken should have been transparent from the start.
I do agree that it shouldn’t be polluting this thread like this though.
What is the point of this comment? Linus was childish as hell in the email chain and started a bunch of drama for literally no reason. I’m not mad as much as I am embarrassed to be a part of the Linux community when things like this happen.
There will always be something to pick at, and with the number of trolls on here to inflame and manipulate any legitimate concerns, i highly suspect the troll farms and related pawns would find something to bitch about.
The fact is, not everyone has the EQ to state the issue perfectly clearly in terms everyone can accept.
“No, do you really expect me to look past what Russia is doing? Absolutely fucking no,” is basically reasonable.
I mean, do you? This is a violation by Russia of another sovereign state. Thus, everyone in Russia is affected by the consequences of that action.
The Russian kernel coders, no matter their innocence, are subjects of a nation that can compel them to misbehave.
Now, if they were leaving Russia and defecting, that’s another matter, where they are pulling their individual sovereignty away from the Russian state.
I have no problems with the action, and I have no problems with his attitude.
The effort to isolate Russia is an acceptable result of the Russian violent invasion. Russian citizens are not to blame for their nation’s behaviour, but they do share responsibility.
Removing contributes from the maintainers list is not an extreme action, but it is important as a statement.
As for not feeling the need to defend the Russian citizens, it is nearly righteous for people from nation’s that have been bullied by their neighbours.
Sanctions like this don’t work to affect change, it’s cruelty for the sake of cruelty with no other plausible purpose. Citizens have practically no control of their government in any nuclear state, blaming them and punishing them for something wholly unrelated to them based on their country of origin or residence is literally in the definition of hate speech, and literally is a fascist activity.
It’s like being mean to customer service people of a bad company. it does effect the bottom line, because of high turnover as a result of a toxic workplace, but it mostly hurts the lowest paid people. Unfortunately, it’s one of few available levers when MAD is a factor.
Just to circle back to this now that I’m more sober,
It’s like being mean to customer service people of a bad company.
If you do this you should unironically be put in jail and stopped from having any form of communication device for the rest of your life. I can’t overstate how fucking pathetic and psychopathic this thought is.
It’s companies that under sanctions, it’s not only drones, its banks that finance the war, and companies that are trying to censor the internet and destroy the privacy, that sort of things.
How would you even know what ties a person has when the problem is government level security. Besides, Russia doesn’t exactly work on government payrolls anyway, it’s more about working in subsidiary companies owned by the oligarchs who are able to skirt the law effectively becoming the government in the process. It’s totally foreign to Western style government, there is nothing like it in the world
It’s very simple. The US government maintains a list of sanctioned entities and companies. US citizens and businesses are not allowed to do business with these entities. Most of the removed maintainers either used their company email, or very publicly are employees of these sanctioned companies.
There’s no investigation of connections or anything complicated going on here.
Also, if you think corporations becoming effective government is some Russia specific thing, I have a bridge to sell you.
There are points of power (like code run all over the world) that are desirable targets for malicious actors.
So, those who are subject to a malicious foreign power, whether they are innocent or not, because they are subject to a power that is not innocent.
We don’t need to attack those people, but we need to deny the Russian state the capacity to affect those points of power where we can. They claim Russian citizenry, and so they are impacted by Russia’s choices, and the international responses to Russia’s actions.
He took the authorization for a bunch of Russians from being able to keep working on the Linux stuff. I’m def not remembering everything and I’d suggest you searching any news about it, it’s an interesting read
I’m OOTL. Why are people upset with Torvalds?
He followed legal advice from lawyers and removed some russians from being kernel maintainers to comply with sanctions.
People are more mad about how he did it rather than just the action he took. If he just explained why without being a prick nobody would care.
“Without being a prick” Dawg being a prick is his primary way of communication, power to him
Removed by mod
No, I also found the way he handled it really distasteful. Even before his response, just generally the way the whole thing was attempted under a veil wasn’t great. The actions taken should have been transparent from the start.
I do agree that it shouldn’t be polluting this thread like this though.
Removed by mod
What is the point of this comment? Linus was childish as hell in the email chain and started a bunch of drama for literally no reason. I’m not mad as much as I am embarrassed to be a part of the Linux community when things like this happen.
There will always be something to pick at, and with the number of trolls on here to inflame and manipulate any legitimate concerns, i highly suspect the troll farms and related pawns would find something to bitch about.
The fact is, not everyone has the EQ to state the issue perfectly clearly in terms everyone can accept.
“No, do you really expect me to look past what Russia is doing? Absolutely fucking no,” is basically reasonable.
So you’re fine with other oss projects kicking out Americans for their multiple genocides, right?
Absolutely.
He went beyond that. “As a Finn, do you really expect me to up in arms to support the Russians…”
Bravo, slow-clap.
I mean, do you? This is a violation by Russia of another sovereign state. Thus, everyone in Russia is affected by the consequences of that action.
The Russian kernel coders, no matter their innocence, are subjects of a nation that can compel them to misbehave.
Now, if they were leaving Russia and defecting, that’s another matter, where they are pulling their individual sovereignty away from the Russian state.
I have no problems with the action, and I have no problems with his attitude.
The effort to isolate Russia is an acceptable result of the Russian violent invasion. Russian citizens are not to blame for their nation’s behaviour, but they do share responsibility.
Removing contributes from the maintainers list is not an extreme action, but it is important as a statement.
As for not feeling the need to defend the Russian citizens, it is nearly righteous for people from nation’s that have been bullied by their neighbours.
All fair.
Sanctions like this don’t work to affect change, it’s cruelty for the sake of cruelty with no other plausible purpose. Citizens have practically no control of their government in any nuclear state, blaming them and punishing them for something wholly unrelated to them based on their country of origin or residence is literally in the definition of hate speech, and literally is a fascist activity.
It’s like being mean to customer service people of a bad company. it does effect the bottom line, because of high turnover as a result of a toxic workplace, but it mostly hurts the lowest paid people. Unfortunately, it’s one of few available levers when MAD is a factor.
Well said.
Just to circle back to this now that I’m more sober,
If you do this you should unironically be put in jail and stopped from having any form of communication device for the rest of your life. I can’t overstate how fucking pathetic and psychopathic this thought is.
Yeah I’m agreeing with you
Only those with ties to Russian Government? like govt jobs etc? or all?
Yes, only those with ties to the war, e.g. people who work for companies that develop software used on Russian drones.
But people are angry that this wasn’t explained from the beginning.
It’s companies that under sanctions, it’s not only drones, its banks that finance the war, and companies that are trying to censor the internet and destroy the privacy, that sort of things.
Yes, the drones was just an example, hence the “example given” before it.
I understand why people were mad it wasn’t made clear in the beginning. if it’s just people with ties to the war then it’s a good thing they did.
How would you even know what ties a person has when the problem is government level security. Besides, Russia doesn’t exactly work on government payrolls anyway, it’s more about working in subsidiary companies owned by the oligarchs who are able to skirt the law effectively becoming the government in the process. It’s totally foreign to Western style government, there is nothing like it in the world
It’s very simple. The US government maintains a list of sanctioned entities and companies. US citizens and businesses are not allowed to do business with these entities. Most of the removed maintainers either used their company email, or very publicly are employees of these sanctioned companies.
There’s no investigation of connections or anything complicated going on here.
Also, if you think corporations becoming effective government is some Russia specific thing, I have a bridge to sell you.
There are points of power (like code run all over the world) that are desirable targets for malicious actors.
So, those who are subject to a malicious foreign power, whether they are innocent or not, because they are subject to a power that is not innocent.
We don’t need to attack those people, but we need to deny the Russian state the capacity to affect those points of power where we can. They claim Russian citizenry, and so they are impacted by Russia’s choices, and the international responses to Russia’s actions.
He took the authorization for a bunch of Russians from being able to keep working on the Linux stuff. I’m def not remembering everything and I’d suggest you searching any news about it, it’s an interesting read
From being able to work on Linux stuff without having their contributions reviewed by someone else (not from russia).
It’s an important distinction many seem to miss.