The instance seems to be mostly right wing trolls. I know defederating is unpopular but I don’t think much is to be lost in this case and it can save the mods some headaches.
Edit: the response on exploding-heads.com to my reporting of transphobia. Courtesy of the “second in command”
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Tolerance is a peace treaty, not a moral precept.
Defederating is a proportional response to a server with a top-level community dedicated to trans hate.
I think people need to remember that nobody owes one’s instance federation
I’d recommend defederating from beehaw if your litmus is “views that end up harmful to trans people are promoted by the instance” as they have a lot of communities like that on there.
of course, people disagree as to what “harm to X” actually means hence the problem.
I’m curious if you have examples given that seems pretty against what I’ve seen of Beehaw so far.
Not saying you’re wrong, it’s just not something I’ve seen yet.
Take a look at this thread. I commented trying to encourage a healthy direction, but giving this guy proper actual scientific/medical info that would help him live a healthy life would almost certainly get you removed/banned from beehaw, and the rest of the comments are encouraging something that will harm this person long term.
This happens a lot in more “progressive” lgbtqia-style spaces, because a lot of their ideology is fundamentally something that can, will, and does harm a lot of people. Look up “detransitioners” as a good example of things going wrong.
To me, and other people who are not aligned with their worldview, it’s obvious that there is harm in the ideology being pushed, and by censoring those who have a difference of view, or who try to stick to proper medical science, you end up funnelling people into paths that end up harming them.
Of course, others will disagree and think there’s no harm in this (that’s why they’re commenting as they do). But I’m someone who’s seen it first hand many times and so I simply can’t get on board with that way of doing things.
It’s not overtly “hateful”, rather the opposite: toxic positivity. But still harmful. But my point here isn’t “you should actually defederate from beehaw”. My point is that what people think is “harmful” differs depending on your views and beliefs.
If I tell this guy, hey you have a medical condition called transvestism, have gyneandromorphophilia, and are at risk of further developing dual role transvestism and gender identity disorder, is that “hateful”? Beehaw probably thinks it is. But IMO that is simply helping and informing.
I was very interested to see examples, as I do not like to judge without knowledge, and I am a very firm believer that toxic positivity is harmful.
That being said, I saw no toxic positivity in that thread or harmfully “positive” comments. Instead, what I saw were many people encouraging OP to explore the ideas thoughtfully while keeping in mind that no one can tell them if they are trans except themselves. I saw encouragement to seek out therapy instead of doing this alone, encouragement to consider the ideas of doing mundane things as a woman (such as doing taxes, grocery shopping, commuting, etc) and see if it still felt right (instead of just the attraction or sexual aspects), reminders that the whole concept is a spectrum and not to get hung up on labels and instead focus on actions that feel right.
I fail to see how any of that is toxic positivity.
The only worrying comment I saw was yours, and even moreso because you indicated that you were biting your tongue because of the community’s rules. You used negative slang terminology to indicate this person merely has a fetish and that this big bad world is too confusing so OP should look to the past when these things were handled more simply “scientifically”, and insinuated they were only going to blindly follow the answer given to them about whether or not they are trans instead of explore their identity given the info from the thread.
It’s the equivalent of encouraging someone with anorexia that they should lose weight and eat less.
Anorexia is actively harming the individual, exploring gender identity and expression is not. Additionally, the commenters (multiple!) told OP that they should seek out therapy in order to actively explore these ideas.
I think I have a bead on what you’re saying now.
I can’t really say I agree that gently supporting someone to explore a side of themselves they are coming to grips with is the same as advocating for the eradication of trans people…
I see it like this: the more these far right types are isolated in echochambers, the more extreme they will get, and long term that is harmful. if, instead, we foster polite and civil discussions, we can come to a mutual understanding, change minds, change hearts, and actually do something that benefits all, and help everyone get closer to the actual truth of the matter.
The mod in the post clearly was speaking against overt hate (slurs and the like). And I think that’s the sort of thing that should be stamped out and discouraged. But a disagreement of views? If you don’t wanna see someone’s differing opinion, why should that mean you’re gonna prevent everyone else from talking to them? Just block yeah?
The example that beehaw defederated over makes sense. There were people posting nsfw content in sfw communities, off topic, that was clearly meant to shock, harm, etc. it makes sense.
But have these exploding-head guys posted off topic? did they spam? did they shout slurs everywhere? or did they simply disagree with you? If it’s a matter of disagreement, I don’t see why the strong action of defederation is needed. Surely we can talk things out?
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The existence of people who detransition is often brought up in anti-trans circles as a criticism of gender-affirming care. However, the actual number of trans people who even just regret getting medical treatments is like 0.5%. Versus something like 14% for medical surgeries in general. And this is including trans people who regret it for social or economic reasons.
I could say some things about why some people here don’t seem to think that people outright saying full-on alt-right shit is bad enough that we should defederate, but I don’t think they’d actually understand or want to
fuck it; those people are so lucky that they’ve never had to think about the danger of alt-right shit as anything other than a thought experiment, the type that hasn’t ever had to deal with people who fundamentally want them to stop existing
like guys, that’s not “alt-right people are crazy weirdos but ultimately harmless”, that’s “I’m lucky because I just happen to not be a primary target for them, if a target at all, and I have mistaken this for the alt-right being of low influence”
honestly peak “I don’t have to think much about politics, and haven’t realized that this is an incredible privilege to have” behavior
To put another spin on it, lemmygrad and exploding heads have an old beef with each other that predates the reddit migration. Far-left vs far-right, it’s not rocket science. As an example try typing in lemmygrad.com and see which instance it takes you to.
Now ask yourself what it tells people when sh.itjust.works has lemmygrad defederated but not EH. It’s an endorsement, no?
Well put.
Yeah I must confess I recently went over there and agitated them a bit. I just wanted to see what their deal was because I saw a few of them over here.
TLDR they are basically like r/thedonald, libertarian types. Use slurs as a badge of honor. Angry, sad people. Fully in favor of defederation. But I get that it’s early days, and defederation is a sensitive topic. I just don’t see any path to that server becoming something of value that I’d want to interact with.
I dont see why defederation is seen as a sensitive topic.
Its a great feature, designed for specifically this purpose.
Over time people will migrate between instances and land where they fit. Some people want to be abrasive cunts, and they will land with the other abrasive cunts. Thats great, they have an instance they can do what they want on.
For the rest of us though, we dont want to see their bad faith articles and abrasiveness on our feeds. No one is being limited in their speech, but they might be limited in their reach. If they want to expand their reach, they can join a more broadly federated instance and ditch the bad faith arguments and abrasiveness.
Its the kids table at the dinner party. You can join the adults table if you behave in a way that is suitable for the adults, if not go back and play with the kids and everyone is happy.
The example that introduced me to federation was like an instance getting overrun with Nazis, and everyone deciding to just cut that instance loose; let it float alone as “the Nazi instance” that nobody has to interact with.
I thought that stuff like bad actors and assholes was one of the main reasons for the idea of federation, really surprised how many people thought differently
I think people would be surprised at the amount of instances that have already been broadly defederated.
Its just that the beehaw defederation is the first “big” incident since broader adoption, and thats for very understandable reasons with a roadmap to refederation already in place.
The only people who get angry about an instance being defederated are the types who want to act in bad faith. They know if they join the instance they got defederated from they will be banned if they spruik the shit that got the instance defederated in the first place, so they are angry that no one wants to listen to their shit.
It sucks for legitimate users that get caught up, but if youre a good user willing to participate in good faith, just join another instance and carry on.
In Beehaw’s case especially I saw a lot of people who came off more that they took being defederated personally or that they felt entitled to Beehaw’s communities than anything
like I still can’t understand why people found it so abhorrent that Beehaw temporarily defederated; they literally stated why and explicitly stated that it’s probably not permanent
like they made it clear, people just didn’t bother to read for some reason
I respect beehaw’s ability to defederate and their decisions to do with their community as they please. I don’t agree with their actions and I don’t think they did the right thing. But that’s why I did not and will not sign up on beehaw.
But if people start defederating each other over slight disagreements? I think that’s bad for the idea of federation in general.
My perspective isn’t so much that I’d like to act in bad faith, but rather that I do not wish for others to dictate who I may speak to or what beliefs I may hold. It’s one thing to have a standard of civility, respect, and polite discourse and to avoid those who do not act as such. It’s another to ban/censor/close off people over a disagreement of perspective.
Defederation is top-level admins building a wall, forcing people to either have two accounts to interact with both groups, or to move and find somewhere that isn’t defederated. If you don’t want to see certain content or talk to someone, why not just block them? why block for everyone? I don’t get that view. I avoid signing up on instances like beehaw because I know they’re quick to defederate. if you want that sorta thing, why not go join them?
Your “right” to expression doesnt extend to forcing other people to listen to you.
I dont know why that seems to be such a common thought.You have a “want” - in that you want to be able to say whatever you want to whoever you want.
Other people also have a “want” - to not have to see that shit when they are just chilling on the internet.We find ourselves at a point where we are on a platform that allows problematic places to be excluded. People there can still say and do what they want, the majority just doesnt have to see or deal with it anymore.
No one is dictating what you can and cant do or say, you are free to do that.
What defederation does is create a place for people who dont care about that shit to exist without having to see it. By defederating at an instance level, it takes that burden away from the individual user and creates a place that they want to be at. If you dont want to be there thats fine.
Its only a problem with people who think like yourself because you want to push your views onto people who arent interested. You want your views to dictate how another community behaves. You dont get to dictate that though. You’re welcome to join if you want to follow their rules, if not find somewhere with rules that you agree with.
As for myself agreeing with beehaw, I interact with that instance regularly. I dont need an account there because I have accounts elsewhere that are federated with them. If those other accounts became defederated, id weigh up the pros and cons and create a local account if I wanted to continue the interaction.
This is a fundamental, core aspect of the fediverse. If being restricted from places that you arent welcome at is something you dont like, I sincerely think the fediverse is not for you. That said, I cant think of many places that are for people who want to push their views onto unwilling others, because the places that spruik that arent attractive to the people who are sick of that shit.
There are places for the type of content you want to engage with. There are even places that are halfway, where people from both sides of this divide meet and converse. The problem only exists when you want to bring that shit into places where it isnt welcome, and the fediverse has been designed from the ground up to alleviate that problem for the majority of people who arent interested.
Your “right” to expression doesnt extend to forcing other people to listen to you.
Indeed. That’s why the block button exists. If you don’t want to hear someone, you can block them. But if two people wish to speak, why do you feel like you should prevent them from speaking to each other?
You have a “want” - in that you want to be able to say whatever you want to whoever you want.
No. My “want” is to be able to discuss things, understand where people are coming from, and arrive at something that is mutually beneficial. The best way to do that is to avoid censorship nazis.
to not have to see that shit when they are just chilling on the internet.
Yes, I’m fully in favor of people curating their own experience, not the experience of others.
What defederation does is create a place for people who dont care about that shit to exist without having to see it.
Actually it prevents other people who do care from seeing it. Defederation is not a “personal block button” it’s a wall preventing anyone on the instances from communicating.
Its only a problem with people who think like yourself because you want to push your views onto people who arent interested.
The opposite, actually. I’m in favor of people blocking who they want. We are both on kbin. If I wish to see posts by those exploding head guys and you do not, what do we do? If we defederate, you are forcing your desires onto me. If you just block them yourself personally, then you get what you want, and I get what I want. win win, right? So I don’t understand why you would defederate, rather than just block?
You want your views to dictate how another community behaves.
The opposite. I’ve spoken many times that beehaw and sh.itjust.works are entirely free to do what they want. I don’t agree with those communities defederating, but naturally they’re gonna do what they’re gonna do.
As for myself agreeing with beehaw, I interact with that instance regularly. I dont need an account there because I have accounts elsewhere that are federated with them. If those other accounts became defederated, id weigh up the pros and cons and create a local account if I wanted to continue the interaction.
If you like beehaw’s federation policies, and not kbin’s, why not use beehaw instead of kbin? Surely that is the obvious thing to do?
If being restricted from places that you arent welcome at is something you dont like, I sincerely think the fediverse is not for you.
My concern is over my own instance preventing me from speaking to others. If beehaw wishes to block kbin, I’m not gonna cry over it, I can speak to people elsewhere. But if kbin starts defederating, then I have an issue. I believe most places will wish to have open and civil discussions and federate with more or less everyone. This is how kbin currently does things, and I support that. But if everyone is just going to defederate each other, why bother with federation at all?
If you genuinely think libertarians are equivalent to r/thedonald posters, you have no clue what you’re talking about. Which is why defederating based on politics is stupid.
I never said they were equivalent. One of the most popular posts on the server is about creating an index of libertarian/right-leaning instances.
https://exploding-heads.com/post/92733
One of the most prominent users (4 month acount!) is named maga_force.
What term would you use to describe their users?
@imaqtpie “What term would you use to describe their users?”
Nazis, probably.I never said they were equivalent.
Comma separation implies a list of traits (users are both r/thedonald users and libertarian) whereas or/and would imply that libertarians and r/thedonald users both exist in the instance
What term would you use to describe their users?
Conservative/MAGA fits the majority of the content a lot better
Comma separation implies a list of traits (users are both r/thedonald users and libertarian) whereas or/and would imply that libertarians and r/thedonald users both exist in the instance
Lol fair enough, thats true.
I honestly thought libertarian was the more flattering descriptor, but sure we can go with Conservative/MAGA
I honestly thought libertarian was the more flattering descriptor
Yeah, so do they - that’s why they try to co-opt the term lol
Ok word. Yeah libertarians usually have some kind of rationale and principles while MAGA people are just walking memes that regurgitate spam.
Honestly most self-described right-libertarians are really differing levels of feudalists. With the uber-feudalists being the “anarcho-capitalists”. Which is the dumbest term ever but that’s not the point.
So I’m always very very suspicious of someone who says they are a libertarian…
Most people who think they are “libertarians” have no clue what they are talking about.
Proudly planting the libertarian flag on top of a few pet peeves.
Then watch them cry foul whenever libertarianism strikes in any of the soft spots they don’t want touched, or don’t understand through lazy ignorance. An extreme cartoonish (yet sadly real) example being something like “Keep your dirty government hands off my Medicare”.
It is as disappointing to see MAGA-types try to co-opt “libertarian” for optics as it is to see the general populace so lacking in critical thinking as to take the bait hook, line, and sinker.
The term had been coopted by feudalists much before that. The term originally referred to anarcho-socialists as opposed to the growing “authoritarian” socialist trend. I put authoritarian in quotes, because that term has also completely lost its meaning.
Anarcho-communists represent.
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I’ve already acknowledged that multiple times.
Your comment is the perfect example of why defederation is even being considered. You’re a sad, confused person who is angry at the world and takes it out on other people. One look at your comment history makes that clear.
We’re trying to build an alternative to reddit and it’s going to be really hard to do that if we have to fucking drag people like you along with us. You seem to enjoy making other people miserable.
That place is gross. They have a parent community that is just trans hate. I can’t imagine spending so much energy being a hateful idiot.
It’s easy: have nothing else going for you in life and making fun of others becomes a super fun way to pass time.
Basically playground bullies who never matured beyond that mentality.
Nazi instances will proliferate and it benefits nobody else to stay in federation with them. It makes the whole fediverse less usable and more dangerous. And whether you like it or not it sends a message to people who are targeted by them that they are not truly welcome here, regardless of whatever moderation rules are espoused.
And in North America, as in many places, these people are acting as a propaganda arm for a literal violent terror movement. Sometimes under a fig leaf of ”irony” but it makes no material difference whether they’re chuckling when they spew shit to me
Thank you for the voice of reason. I have seen so many “but I don’t want an echo chamber” and “just block them bro”. Like thats not the point of this. It’s to deplatform them.
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Moderates: TheDonald@exploding-heads.com
How many Christian Soccer Moms do you think used reddit in the first place? How many do you think are on Lemmy?
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That’s impossible, because all Soccer Moms on reddit are vampires, and vampires can’t be Christian by definition.
Prove my logic wrong.
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I’m also shagging this guys mom
I’m new to the fediverse and im kinda happy that its so easy to defederate from the more over the top instances. I’m in favor of closing the door on those psychos too.
They are just saying whatever to get a rise out of people like 4chan. The goal is chaos they want everyone to react and ban instances.
They don’t magically go away when they are defederated. They will sign up to other open instances and plan their raids from the defederated one which we will have no visibility of. Then they can go from instance to instance causing chaos and breaking up the network as each one defederates.
Then you are back at square one where it is a user problem.
I’m not supporting this particular instance but its a problem that needs to be considered and defederation is a short term fix but will result it bigger problems down the line.
The blueprint is there to kill the network. Make a load of accounts, spam dumb shit until you are defederated… Rinse and repeat.
The blueprint is there to kill the network. Make a load of accounts, spam down shit until you are defederated… Rinse and repeat.
I think the responsibility lies on the owners of each instance to manage trolls on their instance. If they moderate responsibly and shut down the Nazis and trolls, nobody will defederate them. If they don’t moderate effectively and their instance turns into a cesspool, they’ll get defederated by everybody except other trolls.
That’s the whole point of the fediverse. You run your instance, and based on what users on your instance do, other instances decide whether or not to federate with it. And if that results in multiple federated networks that don’t federate with one another, that’s fine too. You can’t keep fascists or tankies from downloading server software and setting up an online forum. But you can keep them out of yours.
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I mean trolls in general, I’m not calling for defederation. I’m trying to point out it won’t solve their problem. I’m playing devils advocate and saying they’re will always be something someone finds offensive and to block problematic individuals not the whole instance.
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I didn’t visit the site, i said I’m speaking in a general sense about trolls.
Not a lot of folks are that vindictive and dedicated to the cause, to make that an issue, I don’t think.
It’s always funny as, non American, to read about this naive anti- censorship slogans. Hateful political groups never stay in their places and play nice everywhere else. They brigade and harass every fucking time. There’s a reason why every place without moderation turns into a absolute toxic cesspit.
Voat failed quickly because of the “no censorship” implemented which allowed garbage to congregate. Of course people left because it was nothing but shit.
Lemmy needs to take out this trash.
voat would have failed regardless. Their servers couldn’t handle the load when the Exodus went there.
you
you get it
all of this “marketplace of ideas” bullshit predicates on the alt-right and fascists cooperating and playing fair, when they historically have always taken advantage of any chance they’re given and then mocking those who wanted to give them a chance
like it’s 2023, I’d hoped that we’d have realized why giving the alt-right and fascists a seat at the table never fucking works out for anyone other than the alt-right and fascists
“Unlimited tolerance must lead to the disappearance of tolerance. If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them.” -Karl Popper
Not the prettiest instance, but have they caused any real trouble outside of their own instance? Not much of a fediverse if we just defederate from instances that lean different politically. Especially seems like a weird move to go defederating on other instances this early given y’know, that we just got defederated from beehaw because of one misbehaved asshole.
Given that no bigotry is one of the stated rules of this instance and that bigotry is pretty rampant over on that instance I think it would be appropriate to disassociate with them.
Seems like something you should block individual users over rather than a whole instance
If the instance lets bigots participate then the problem is with the instance itself.
Nice whataboutism you got there, care to come up with an actual argument instead of trying to deviate the discussion?
So only certain bigots count, got it.
Now you’re putting words in my mouth as well?
You’re totally unable to stay on topic, aren’t you?
I’m not saying we should immediately defederate, but the reason I originally went to check them out was partially because of this comment and the reply from dick@exploding-heads.com
https://sh.itjust.works/comment/207742
When he made that reply, it got rapidly upvoted to +7, while my comment was also sitting at about +7. This morning, several hours later, when a bunch of actual sh.itjust.works users woke up and read the thread, the ratio of votes changed in my favor.
I fear that we are going to deal with a significant level of brigading from that instance, and unlike reddit we don’t really have any tools to combat that.
They also had a good laugh about the troll who posted here about getting us defederated by beehaw. They really don’t like beehaw, or gay people in general.
It’s whatever but we are already defederated with lemmygrad.ml and I feel like this stuff is on that same tier.
this is an interesting post-reddit effect, we have people of all different types and motives seeking new places.
A lot of people seem to think this is an all out battle between a new community and reddit. Like we have to beat them or something. The situation with reddit is not a win-lose, reddit would never go dark overnight. A lot of users are just over reddit and moving on. I personally don’t care about lemmy becoming the next reddit nor do I really care what happens to them.
A big difference to me with this migration is the instances seem to attract like minds. This is going to be a very interesting event to watch how the fediverse grows and changes.
I personally do see this as a war against reddit and the corporate internet. But we are just marshaling the troops, we aren’t about to march into battle.
I think this migration is different for two reasons.
Firstly, because the main users who were alienated were the mods, app devs, and long time redditors. The composition of the exodus is infinitely superior to the voat migration for example.
Secondly, because the platform of Lemmy and the fediverse provides actual value due to the ability to federate. You can’t get the combination of access and protection that this platform might eventually provide on regular social media.
Agree. I think blocking should be done on an individual basis unless it truly becomes a problem for most users and a turn-off for new users
Being openly bigoted isn’t a “political leaning” though, and it’s against lemmy.world’s code of conduct as stated on the sidebar link: https://mastodon.world/about
Provide a friendly, safe, and welcoming environment for everyone regardless of gender identity or expression, sexual orientation, disability, personal appearance, body size, race, ethnicity, age, religion, nationality, political affiliation, or other similar characteristic.
No one is saying let’s ban conservatives. This discussion is about defederating an instance that seems to be crawling with alt-right trolls. I don’t understand why that would be a problem.
Like I’d hope that we wouldn’t follow in Reddit’s footsteps of tolerating alt-right bigotry
Defederating isn’t like being fucking censored or whatever; it’s people deciding that they don’t want to be around you
Basically near-every instance did this for Lemmygrad with zero complaint, so it’s fucking weird that there are so many people complaining now when it comes to an instance teeming with alt-right bigotry
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Agreed, defederation exists for a reason. Maybe if exploding heads admins get their shit together and clean up the instance they can get regenerated but as is nothing us to be gained from this federation.
I support this. Keep Nazis out of my feed.
Defederation is de-platforming. These hate communities are able to recruit because let them. We give them free reign to whisper hateful falsehoods in the ears of the vulnerable, all in the name of free speech. They can be as hateful as they want on their own, but we are under no requirement to give them a platform to spread their ideologies. De-platforming works, so let the nazis chirp in their own little echo chamber. Keep their hateful rhetoric contained to their own little garden so our vulnerable youth need not be exposed. It’s easy to say “just block them yourself,” but that doesn’t cut off the steady supply of misguided incel-larva to fill their ranks. Drown 'em out. De-platform them. Defederate now. No quarter for hate.
The issue with censoring is that as soon as you start censoring people because you think their ideas are harmful, there are those who think your ideas are harmful. yet the group doing the censorship never sees their own views as harmful. it just increases polarization, echochambers, etc. which IMO leads to more harm, not less.
I think the way beehaw goes about things is harmful, so should we defederate from them as well? Or are only the things you think are harmful what should be censored? And if the latter, who made you boss?
sh.itjust.works can decide their federation policies on their own, but defederating over a difference of belief is always odd to me. the mod message that OP shared is clear they don’t allow truly hateful speech, they merely have different views on things. same goes for lemmygrad, they get defederated often but they seem quite civil despite their fringe views?
I wonder if kbin will stay the course and continue federating with everyone or if it’ll eventually defederate. I hope the former, and those who wish for an instance that defederates can go elsewhere.
No one is censoring anyone. They are free to post whatever toxic shit they want. But we, as an instance, have elected NOT to listen. Censorship would be banning their instance from existing, which IIRC is impossible with federated instances. No, this is just de-platforming. We are turning off the loudspeaker connected to their instance. We don’t have to give them a platform. There is no reason to do so. So we defederate.
EDIT: Let me dumb it down further. “We are removing the link to Stormfront from our home page due to their stances.” Would you call that censorship? Is it censorship that I would unfriend someone because they are spewing hateful garbage? Of course not. If you really want to read that hate, there are plenty of ways to find it. We just aren’t going to help you find it anymore.
“we as an instance” you’re on kbin. has kbin defederated? I just woke up so maybe I missed something this morning but… this is the sh.itjust.works community lol.
“I have no argument, so I am going to focus on the person rather than the argument.”
🤓
kbin is still federated with everyone lol. and afaik sh.itjust.works hasn’t defederated exploding-heads.
hun you’re a kbinaut, not a sh.itjust.works user. You’d be unaffected by their defederating if it happens.
Don’t de-federate unless they’re allowing the planning of violence, CSAM material, or actual abuse.
As a leftist I see it like this:
Blocking someone is: “I don’t want to see this”
De-federating is: “I don’t want you to see this”
Blocking someone is: Ignoring a person saying bigoted things.
De-federating is: Jailing a person saying bigoted things.
If you can’t handle people saying shit you don’t like then you need thicker skin. If you can’t engage in a conversation with a person who shares an opinion that you fine distasteful then you need to seek maturity.
If you can’t disagree with someone without physically attacking them, then you don’t deserve to be part of a community. If you can’t exist without abusing another person, then you don’t deserve to be part of a community.
As a leftist you should be familiar with the paradox of tolerance and the dangers of giving a platform to hateful ideas.
I’m familiar with the Paradox of Tolerance and its propensity to be wielded like a cudgel when someone wants to be intolerant of an idea.
Who gets to decide which ideas are the bad kind of intolerance and which are the good kind of intolerance?
I say we should be intolerant of people who use force to spread their message. I say we should be intolerant of people who would shut down a conversation over a disagreement.
We absolutely should not federate with instances who allow for the promotion of violence or other kinds of direct action against groups of people. If Exploding Heads allows that then I agree we should de-federate. From what I can see it’s your standard right-wing instance. I disagree with a lot of opinions expressed there but I can handle blocking people and filtering my own reality. I don’t need someone else to do it for me.
lol, defederating is not anything like jail
- Federating is like sitting at a big table with a bunch of people in a restaurant.
- Blocking is moving a couple seats down from someone who’s being an asshole so you can’t hear them anymore (but meanwhile they’re still harassing your friends, you’re just ignoring it)
- Defederating is separating the group so that you’re no longer at the table with the asshole and their asshole friends
Now, in a tolerant society, we should be tolerant of people who are merely annoying. But not people who are normalizing violence and hate. There are people you fundamentally should not sit at a table with.
It’s important to understand the difference between a good faith disagreement and bad faith propaganda and harassment campaigns, which is what the right wing troll farms deal in.
Defederating is separating the group so that you’re no longer at the table with the asshole and their asshole friends
The issue is that you’re no longer choosing who you interact with you’re choosing who everyone interacts with. You’re walking away with a table that other people are sitting at. This isn’t Reddit you’re not banning their subreddit, they’re not deplatformed, you’re just adding them to the block list of everyone on your instance.
You have no right to tell me what I can see and respond to anymore than I have a right to tell you who you can and cannot block.
You have no right to tell me what I can see and respond to anymore than I have a right to tell you who you can and cannot block.
That’s also not what defederating is. Nobody’s speech or ability to see speech is being restricted, since we are all free to set up accounts on other instances. Users are making a reasonable request to the instance owner for a normal moderation action that is in line with stated community standards and past defederation decisions (i.e., lemmygrad); the instance owner is free to honor it or not.
The basic question, which every fediverse instance has been having to deal with since inception, is how to draw the line on communities that willingly include bad actors. It has to be drawn somewhere, and where you draw it says a lot.
If you blocked everyone on that server, you’d never see them again.
If you de-defederate them then nobody here can see them and you’ve blocked everybody on that instance for everyone on this instance.
If you block them it doesn’t affect what I can read and respond to. If you de-federate this instance from their instance then you are choosing who I can see and who I can read and who I can respond to.
From your point of view there is zero difference between them being de-federated and you blocking their users and communities. From my point of view there is a significant difference between them being de-federated and you blocking their users and communities.
If you were just worried about seeing what they write then you’d block them. If you run a community and are worried about their users posting in your community, you can set up a moderation script that blocks posts coming from their server.
You’re trying to make choices that affect how other people on this instance interact with the entire Fediverse. It is not your role to decide what other users can read and respond to.
you can leave the instance if you don’t like it; this allows you to access the rest of the fediverse; saying “you’re blocked from the entire fediverse” is not a good reason to not defed because it’s fundamentally not true
You have no right to tell me what I can see and respond to anymore than I have a right to tell you who you can and cannot block.
This isn’t Reddit you’re not banning their subreddit, they’re not deplatformed, you’re just adding them to the block list of everyone on your instance.
I can manage my own block list. You can manage your own block list.
You can’t manage my block list, and I can’t manage your block list. Fair?
No. You can start your own server if that’s how you want it. That’s fair as designed.
I’m not the one trying to change the server.
If you’re not happy here then there are other instances for you.
Wait, whats the argument against jailing shitty people? No one’s abusing them or attacking them just nobody wants to hang with them in any way shape or form.
nobody wants to hang with them in any way shape or form
Then each person, individually, makes that choice.
If you choose to not hang out with a person in a cult that’s fine. But you shouldn’t block them off from every other person, what about the people who are trying to deconvert them. What about the people who are keeping an eye on them to make sure they don’t do crazy things?
Your desire to interact with them should only control your actions, you shouldn’t try to impose your desire to block a person or community on everyone who shares an instance with you.
Nah ppl should not stand by and watch literal human garbage thrive. Let them stew in their own hate, alone.
Sounds like you’re painting with a mighty broad brush. Which specific people and posts are you talking about? Because if you find a ‘literal human garbage’ poster you can click their name and click ‘Block User’.
I don’t need you to curate my block list for me.
As I quipped about earlier, based on what a lot of people are saying in here it’s kinda bullshit that we de-federated lemmygrad then. But to your point we just need a short list of things that sh.it will defed over so that policy can be applied consistently.
These big discussion threads on the main community here have actually had a lot of healthy discussion in them which is encouraging. All of these things are just initial growing pains that the broader lemmysphere is going through right now to find its footing. Things will even out.
I don’t know the lemmygrad situation but I’d likely agree. If they’re not spreading violence or CSAM or engaging in abusive activity (doxing, SWATing, targeted harassment, etc) then I think the filtering of communities should be left to the users. Moderation is to ensure that an instance isn’t overran by spam or bot postings so that the users can communicate.
I don’t need a Big Brother deciding who I can and cannot talk to and which opinions I can and cannot be exposed to.
Defederation should be the LAST and FINAL option. From what I understand, this is a small instance that isn’t causing much trouble outside of their instance. Block them on your own! I’m on lemmy.world, but personally I would like to keep up to date on the shit they post. I don’t think we should start goimg around defederating communities that we disagree with, even though their opinions are shit, vile, offensive, and disgusting. Leave it up and block them on your own.
100%
I don’t like how r/conservative handles their moderation but I don’t think their subreddit should be nuked.
But things like Men Going Their Own Way, and The Donald or any other subreddits promoting violence and direct hate deserve removal (or de-federation). De-federation should be used as a tool of last resort. For places who are turning to actual violence or outright hatred.
I cannot stress how strongly I disagree with exploding-head’s stance on Trans rights and racism but if someone has an odious opinion on gender affirming care or trans athletes then they should be met by people who counter their ideas. Simply cutting them off into isolation provides zero chance of changing their minds.
I understand that some people have no interest in debating people who disagree with them, and that is entirely ok. Block any community or poster that you find offensive but defederation is not something that should be used regularly.
I think given their hateful content it is irresponsible to essentially platform their content by remaining federated. Do you really feel the need to stay up to date on the latest transphobic meme and covid conspiracy theories?
I don’t feel a need to stay up to date, no. But reading about what those idiots think doesn’t hurt my ego or ruin my day. I just like to have an idea of what the “enemy” is thinking. I don’t want to live in an echo chamber. The sub isn’t even THAT bad compared to what I was expecting. They’ve got some gross posts, don’t get me wrong. But it’s not NEARLY bad enough to warrant defederating. Most of the posted content is moderate-right. Defederating is silly in this case.
Removing those that wish people were dead for existing doesn’t create an echo chamber.
If they have users calling for violence and those users are not being banned that is one thing. If they have odious opinions on trans healthcare that’s completely different.
De-federation should be used for instances that promote literal violence. Blocking should be used on communities and posters who have opinions that you can’t stand.
We get it, you’re straight.
Is it not a much more powerful message if the fediverse as a whole down votes the stuff into oblivion. If they are isolated it becomes an us vs them game with them playing the victim.
When they see that by and large they are ignored and downvoted they might grow up and realize they are acting like dicks.
Tbh that sounds like how people are pushed into extremism. When an open dialog is kept, there is at least a chance a thought provoking discussion would change a mind, even if it’s just one mind. I don’t really know, I don’t mind defederating in this instance ftmp, nothing of value for me there so whatever.
I guess these ppl are already extremists, so 🤷
I agree with this. Isolating communities that have odious beliefs only lead to those beliefs being echoed and intensified in their small spaces, and hence become more extreme over time. It’s not “nipping the issue in the bud” like many people seem to think it is, it’s the complete opposite. Past a certain line we definitely should cut ties, but I guess it’s debatable where that line should be drawn.
I think that, in these instances, there is a sort of nuance and humanness that is kinda glossed over.
Its not really that hard to imagine ending up like that. Im not apologizing for them, I’m just saying that we are in a constant fight with our own biology and alot of stuff depends on circumstance.
What these people, apparently, need is some lsd or smth cause they are all stuck in their heads. They hate themselves. It’s all projection and protection of something they don’t even understand.
Should we just let them wallow in their own shit? What is our duty to them, if any? I’m not really sure tbh. But I know pretending that it’s not real ain’t gonna fix shit.
It’s not a matter of the opinions being unpopular and thus toothless. By federating with them we are giving them a larger platform to get their message out to those who will believe it.
You don’t see their communities unless you subscribe. If their users are posting in our communities and breaking the rules of the communities then their posts will be deleted and the users banned.
There are moderation options other than de-federation. De-federation is an option of last resort to protect the greater community from violence, abuse and crime. De-federation is not a tool for sending a political message.
You can personally block that entire server and you will never see anything from them.
You see their shit if you sort by new. Are you like a kbin user? Maybe shit works differently for you.
My username shows @Difficult_Bit_1339 to you, so we’re on the same instance. If it had @lemmy.world then I would be a user on the lemmy.world instance.
If you choose ‘All’ instead of ‘Local’ or ‘Subscribed’ then you see everything that exists, yes. I wouldn’t recommend that since it is an incredibly spammy experience. That being said, you can block any community like so:
They know they’re acting like dicks, they’re openly proud and revel in it and it’s a core, fundamental part of who they are. Hateful bigots such as them don’t have any interest in changing who they are or improving their behaviour, they will just shift the goalposts and double down every time they are challenged. It’s been proven time and time again that they are not looking to be reasonable.
“personally I would like to keep up to date on the shit they post”
The shit they post is the gateway to worse things for some. You’re still free to go check what’s going on over there, it doesn’t mean they should have access to our space.
gateway to worse things for some
so you’re basically saying “there’s nothing wrong with this, but let’s ban it anyway because it may be a little wrong in the future”?
Where did I say there’s nothing wrong with what they say?
In the OP you’ve got the perfect example: “I’m not racist but I can point to BLM and criticize it…” that’s exactly how you plant the seed that leads some people to racism, with that “but”.
I’ll share it again and again: https://youtu.be/P55t6eryY3g
Communities keep deciding not to react to alt-right users until it’s too late to get rid of them.
… are you saying you can’t criticize BLM?
also that yt link lol
i probably already watched it but will again cuz i remember liking it.
upon rewatching a few minutes of it, i can see there’s a few fallacies here and there but doens’t mean it’s wrong.
final edit: wow does he make a shitfuckton of assumptions to just say “if we allow jordan peterson to have a youtube channel we’re killing poor black people”
No, I’m saying that it’s exactly the way the alt-right opens doors to more extreme opinions. “I don’t think X but…”. They keep moving the window of what is and isn’t acceptable this way.
Let them participate here and that’s exactly what they’ll keep doing until the problem is too major to control because they’ve taken over (see /r/Canada even before /r/metacanada was banned) or a mod puts their big pants on and say enough is enough and bans their instance, but then you’re still stuck with all the users that got converted.
I see. Maybe I’m biased because the very few times I’ve seen them posting here I found them to be pretty funny and liked their presence. Their tactless way of having fun is somewhat endearing in a sense. I’m their polar opposite in terms of political ideology and completely disagree with all of their political points but that doesn’t make it not fun to see them hopping around being little nodes of comedic angst.
It’s already started:
https://sh.itjust.works/comment/287275
Extremists are very good at “just making jokes” and “just asking questions” and maybe to you that’s what they’re doing, but doing the joke opens the door to “just talk about X for real though” and suddenly people are arguing and you’ll have some regular people that will start believing there might be some truth to what the extremists are saying and the spiral begins. They might never reach the deep end, they’ll take what they’re open to. Someone single and insecure might just adhere to the incel stuff and not the racism, someone who just lost their job when a black person got to keep theirs might adhere to the racism but not to the anti-women stuff…
also the long post on the op is incompatible with my adhd and i have been unable to read it the multiple times i’ve opened it lol. wallatext
Yes exactly. Just like there are idiots in real life, we ignore them and move on. Everyone is entitled to an opinion even if we disagree with it. Sure people can spout some nonsense devoid of facts we can down vote if thats the case .
You might disagree with someone on politics but like the same sports team for example. There are humans on either side so like in real life we can get along and don’t need to agree on everything.
If something is illegal or its hate speech or something like that then report and block the user and the content.
If you don’t like a community you can block it but if we shut off instances all of the time I can guarantee you the fediverse will just turn into isolated echo chambers and we’ll all be forced back to corporate walled gardens.
If we can coexist in real life we can coexist here.
We need our views challenged to grow. Being corrected is a good thing thats how we learn. Life is short at the end of the day let’s not try to take it too serious.
❤️
holy shit, how do I even begin to explain that you can’t just “ignore” Nazis and racists and transphobes and letting them keep their platform
you do understand that they hurt real fucking people, right???
I don’t see why we need to coexist with people who are against coexistence with certain groups of people.
Removed by mod
Yes
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Anarchist, but hey you tried…
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Lol touch grass
I agree all the way.
These guys fucking suck, no doubt, but I really prefer that we put the impetus on users to block communities they don’t like rather than pursue total defederation
Being tolerant without limits not a good way to handle right wing trolls. Trusting right wing trolls to moderate themselves is, imo, not a route to success.
This comic, in my view, does a passable job of summarising the idea of the paradox of tolerance.
I mean we banned lemmygrad and bigotry is against our instance rules.
We banned lemmygrad? I’m not a fan of that either tbh
Tankies can get fucked too. Harmful ideas should not be platformed
Harmful ideas should not be platformed
I think that this is a harmful idea and the moderation team should ban you for it.
See how that can get out of hand? Who gets to decide what is a harmful idea?
I certainly wouldn’t trust you to do it. Would you trust me to do it?
I think this is an incomprehensible idea and the moderation team should ban you for it. It’d be funny. Difficult_Bit_1339 makes the worst argument ever, asked to leave sh.itjust.works
Now you get it.
People being banned for their ideas is a dumb idea because the person who gets to decide what a dumb idea is is often an idiot and will make bad decisions.
You either ban Nazis and similar assholes or your community will be overrun by them, causing the good people to leave.
Prime example: Twitter right now.
The “muh free speech” “argument” doesn’t hold in light of the fact, that this is a privately owned and operated platform at the full discretion of the admins. Free speech is a right to defend people from the government, not to enable every asshole to spew their shit into everyone’s feed.
We should absolutely not turn to defederation as a first action. You know how traditional social media bans opinions that are not acceptable according to themselves?
We must be better than that. It creates a ridiculous otherwise where people think everyone agrees with them and they are never challanged in how they think about things.
I think we should be exposed to different opinions as long as it’s within the rules, meaning people must be polite, not hateful, not breaking the law etc.
Read up on the Paradox of Tolerance, please. “We must be better than them” is a call for total tolerance, which will inevitably lead to the disappearance of tolerance, and that cannot be allowed to happen. It is simply impossible to have a community where transphobes and trans people coexist happily together, and I’ll choose the side that’s not trying to hurt others (trans people, in case that wasn’t clear) every day.
Every censorship-enjoyer loves talking about the Paradox of Tolerance. Here’s the part Popper said that they like to gloss over:
I do not imply, for instance, that we should always suppress the utterance of intolerant philosophies; as long as we can counter them by rational argument and keep them in check by public opinion, suppression would certainly be unwise.
Nobody’s talking about censorship. Anybody who wants to see that kind of stuff can still just go to the defederated instance without any problem, and nobody is arguing for that possibility to be taken away.
Also, no, I’m not glossing over that part. Instead, you seem to be glossing over this part of your own quote:
as long as we can counter them by rational argument and keep them in check by public opinion
In an age where transphobic legislation is passed left and right at an alarming rate, you can not tell me in good consciousness that transphobia and similar intolerant ideologies are actually successfully being kept in check by public opinion right now, and rational argument does jack shit, as evidenced by, well, the whole of public discourse about the topic apparently not having any bearing on said legislation.
But certainly the proposed defederation isn’t the same as suppressing utterance, considering there would remain a publicly accessible instance for that speech. This would be closer to keeping in check by public opinion, since it’s the action of exterior social forces.
Thats an interesting link, thats for sharing it.
I mean sure, I dont have a lot of faith in humanity in general. It seems the majority is unable to act in a mature way, so maybe you and the link is correct.
But I wish we would grow up as a species. We are acting like monkeys.
No, we are acting like humans. But close enough ;-)
social media bans opinions
Hate is not an opinion
How is it not? It may be an opinion stemming from a feeling but it’s still an opinion isn’t it?
it breaks the social contract of tolerance and seeks to end discourse by killing the participants when escalated to its final form. hate groups are no more participants in discourse than fire is an architectural style for building a house.
we don’t have to take seriously the folks that suggest “let’s set it on fire” when discussing whether we want to build a victorian or modern style home because they are not serious people and their poor ideas have been proven idiotic too many times to count.
I don’t disagree with any of that.
However, my comment is about the definition of an opinion, and I still haven’t gotten an explanation why it’s not one.
Definitionally is
You say we should be exposed to different opinions as long as it is within the rules and yet this instances most active communities post anti Trans hate and covid conspiracy shit. Surely this goes against our instances rule of no bigotry. Also paradox of tolerance, etc.
and if it were posted in other instances i would hope itd get dealt with appropriately
them posting it on their own instance is their business, scummy as it is
And so it is permitted to exist but be quarantined in defed.
I’m as leftist as they come and I do not support this action. If you don’t want to see it, mute the instance rather than creating an echo chamber.
you’re leftist but aren’t considering the paradox of tolerance?
like, why? What is the reason you’re not supporting defederation?
How does one mute an entire instance?
deleted by creator
I’m not actually sure, honestly. Maybe mute the users instead if the instance isn’t possible to mute.
This is silly. Just block the users/instance yourself.
Defederation exists for a reason. Shit heads and extremists should not be welcome here.
Given that one of the rules for the server is no bigotry, I would assume that extends to the ones we federate with from what I read.
If I do that does it auto-block it’s users from showing up in other threads for me? Or just it’s content from my feed?
Lemmy or Jeroba just ate my comment so let me try again.
I didn’t initially want to join here, but the instance I did want to join (which is defederated with Lemmygrad, Burggit, and Exploding Heads and I think that’s a fantastic defed list) is having significant growing pains at the moment, while shit just works here. I ran across my first Exploding Heads post in All and it was gross, and it seems like the tools available to me as a user will leave me playing whack a mole to get rid of all of it which I’m not looking forward to. Right now I’m planning on moving to that other instance in a few weeks once they get everything sorted out, but if Burggit and Exploding Heads are defederated here and the issues with Beehaw are sorted out (which I’m optimistic that they will be), I’m open to staying here, it’s certainly the easiest option for me given the lack of account migration options, and the perks of being in a larger instance (the community search feature in Jeroba has worked well for me and I think it’s due to the large user base here). I’m extremely impressed with how The Dude is handling the scaling issues and his communication with Beehaw right now, also I generally like Canadians and green energy, lol.
Mind if I ask what the instance that you’re planning to move to is? That sounds like a great defed list and I’d like to support that sort of behavior.
They’re a regional instance. That should narrow it down a bit but I’m sorry I don’t feel comfortable saying outright. They’ve been having server issues, I’d prefer to try to keep them from having moderation issues too, there’s been a couple of people from shit just works brigading other instances. Most Lemmy instances have defederated from exploding heads at least.
if there are other instances that have defederated instances u want defederated, i recommend joining them, as you yourself seem to be aware of.
I’ve defederated with Lemmygrad and exploding heads on my instance. I haven’t heard of Burggit before, are they also kind of out there like those instances?
