The Biden administration is asking Congress to provide more than $13 billion in emergency defense aid to Ukraine and an additional $8 billion for humanitarian support through the end of the year.
According to the most cliche liberal line: the US is killing Russia’s soldiers with no loss of American blood and putting old equipment to good use while bolstering domestic military industrial complex to acquire new stockpiles.
It’s a great return of investment.
No, workers staying healthy through preventative care is not a “return on investment.” Stop talking about healthcare.
Yeah, invasions are out of fashion. All the West does is make a country’s development contingent on their willingness to let the West exploit their natural resources and labor and then cut said development if they fund a social program or coup them if the “locals” are uncooperative. All after gutting these countries for hundreds of years via colonialism. You don’t need to do an invasion when you can just put a noose around the neck of a country.
Oh and the West still does invasions look at Libya, Iraq, Afghanistan, and Syria. And UK special forces have been in Syria, the Sudan, Nigeria, and others as recently as last year.
Hey, Space Neoliberalist. If you ever touch some real theory (instead of reading Harry Potter and The Washington Post), like Lenin. You would know that this is an inter-capitalist conflict (you know what that means?). If you think that USA is helping in good faith (and not in the interest of colonialism exploitation in the long run), you are an idiot.
“fashy past grievances reasons”
So denouncing the crimes of the west is fascist now?
-“Hey USA shouldn’t have supported dictatorships in Latin America with their Plan Cóndor, or helped in the coup against the democratic elected Salvador Allende. Or dropped two atomic bombs in two civilian cities, or having the highest incarcerated population doing slave labor, or burn with napalm villages, or puting children in cages in the border, or….”. I could be all night talking about USA crimes. A whole month with the Nato members crimes.
-”Shut up fascist.”
Is always projetion with you liberals. Scrath a liberal, and a bloodthirsty nafo fascist bleeds.
The problem with “both sides” arguments is you tacitly admitting your side is wrong when you do that.
Yeah sure the US shouldn’t have done those things in the past. But these are past grievances, which is the cornerstone of fascist thinking. “Our present day horrible actions are justified because of the horrible things others have done in the past!”
Whatever US and any other NATO members did wrong in the past doesn’t make what Russia is doing today right.
Also, why should Ukrainians suffer so that Russia can expand their empire?
I have no doubt about the ability of fascists to go on and on about past grievances. But what grievance do you have with Ukraine specifically?
You clearly didn’t read the Lenin book I linked and, by seeing your activity in here, you are close to the ban.
So I just want to say that is so fucking funny that you think that the passing of time exonerates USA from their crimes. I mean, how much time has to pass? They are still putting children in cages, invading countries, having the highest incarcerated population, making coups in foreign countries, etc.
But let’s follow your logic, and let’s wait a few years. That way all the Russian crimes will be just past grievances.
Whatever US and any other NATO members did wrong in the past doesn’t make what Russia is doing today right.
It was wrong for the US to coup Ukraine’s government, but also wrong for Russia to intervene to stop the coup government from killing civilians after like 8 years, got it.
Bud I’m begging you read one serious academic text analyzing the rise and system of fascism, before you do something embarrassing like call indigenous people complaining about what the US has done to them fascists for airing past grievances.
Also ‘we haven’t invaded anywhere in the very immediate past (though the genocidal war criminals who perpetrated our last invasion are still important and celebrated public figures)’ is a pretty fucking weak justification from a country insisting on being world police.
Only white countries though, when it comes to black people and brown people you don’t give a rats ass, there’s still dictators all over the world that none of you even give a s*** about
That’s fine but why are they banning socialist parties, integrating fascist paramilitaries into the army, and privatizing land? That all seems a little familiar.
Yeah we’ve really cultivated a lot of prestiege on this one, the west definitely hasn’t absolutely embarrassed itself and unified large swathes of the world against it. And hey, it only took like three rounds of sabotaged peace talks and and multiple generations of Ukranians fed into a big novelty Northrop-Grumman branded meat grinder.
it sends a message to other dictators around the world that we won’t just sit back and let them plough into another country,
You mean like the collective west did to Yugoslavia, Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya? Who’s supposed to send the message to our dictators when it’s time to stop?
For some people, everything has to be a conspiracy. Logical, easily verifiable reasons for things can’t possibly be the truth to them. Especially if it comes from the opposing political party, it is automatically false to them. Even if verifiable.
Honestly I wasn’t sure of the benefit either, but your response makes so much sense. I don’t know why there always has to be conspiracies for obvious stuff.
We’re giving Ukraine our table scraps that are too nice to toss, but too expensive to keep. They’re using them to defeat a long-standing geopolitical foe at no costs to American lives.
Ukraine doesn’t need dirt to get our help, this is the best money the US has spent since Lend-Lease.
It’s sending a message to authoritarians. Don’t invade countries or we’ll send the other country stuff to make it go badly for you. This has a chilling effect on authoritarians, making them refrain from this kind of activity. This improves global security, which results in better trade, which improves the global economy. The US being on the globe benefits from this.
Also, do you like how much you’re paying for groceries? Could it be this war is causing a disruption in grain supply? You know that stuff that goes into bread, the feed that cows eat, etc? Yeah, I know people on the internet are all blaming their own governments (in basically every country, LOL) for high grocery prices, because no one wants to say that’s it’s Putin. Sure there is probably some assholes jacking up the prices more than necessary, but do you think all the corporations and all of the governments got together and decided to do this? Nope the inflation, the high grocery prices, it’s because of Putin’s bullshit.
Not to mention all of the influence campaigns Russia is running on the internet. You know where you’re constantly being influenced by the internet towards burning down the capital of your own country? That’s a disinformation campaign designed to destabilize NATO countries. Taking down Putin will lessen that buillshit. I say lessen because after seeing Russia’s success other countries like China are getting in on that game now too. But one asshole at a time.
Don’t invade countries or we’ll send the other country stuff to make it go badly for you
Man I wish someone sent that message to the US before they invaded Iraq and Afghanistan, carpet bombed Syria and Libya, and funded various forms of jihadist militant groups for the past 20+ years.
There’s exactly one county that’s been toppling democracies and bankrolling dictators for almost a 100 years and it’s baby.
yeah its definitely putin’s fault everything is more expensive and not corporate greedy price-gouging. remember, everything is putin’s fault! the west is perfect!
You know where you’re constantly being influenced by the internet towards burning down the capital of your own country? That’s a disinformation campaign designed to destabilize NATO countries.
Seeing how you NAFO psychos behave has actually completely convinced me that the only path forward is to burn DC (and Langley) to the ground and that NATO must be dismantled if there’s ever going to be lasting peace. Congratulations.
A little secret, don’t tell anyone… I’m a member of NAFO because I bought some stickers from their website. Everything else you got going on is just paranoid delusions that you came to by reading too much glavset propaganda on the internet.
The high energy prices mean its no longer profitable to run heavy industries in europe. So the us is cannibalizing some of german industry. Thats the profit the us gets.
I agree wholeheartedly with supporting Ukraine, but Russia has had a land border with NATO for twenty years at this point. They just pretend they don’t so that they can cry “NATO expansionism!”
The fact that you’re assuming this person is a Fox “News” consumer is emblematic of the overall media’s coverage of the war in Ukraine. A person can be anti-war and still part of the left. But not according to you, or others who immediately jump to things like, “go back to licking Putins boot, watching Fox News, etc.” You are shutting down any sort of constructive conversation.
The media has made the war in Ukraine a moral imperative by making it democratic Ukraine vs authoritarian Russia. War makes everything black and white. So it becomes impossible to say something like, “Russia’s invasion of Ukraine is wrong” while also saying “The US should not support Ukraine with weapons.”
I am anti-war. I do not think the US should support Ukraine with weapons. To me, I am extremely skeptical of the simplistic idea that we are aiding democracy and staunching authoritarianism. I think that kind of of rhetoric pervaded the conflicts in the Middle East, and I think in those cases, it was more accepted by the public that the US was acting in a more imperialistic manner. I think that fits closer to the mark here, too.
For one thing, the US was directly involved in Ukraine’s revolution in 2014, trying to position people in power who had a more EU friendly demeanor. And they helped expand NATO bases closer to Russian borders. These two things, while they certainly do not justify Russia’s invasion, I’m sure made them feel threatened. Now, I don’t have much historical knowledge of Ukraine or Russia, but certainly they’ve had more than just a geographic relationship over the past century or so. If Russia was involved in a Mexican revolution, trying to make them friendlier to Russia rather than the US, I’m sure the US would have a problem with that. Still, the US would not be justified in invading Mexico, as Russia is not justified in invading the Ukraine. This is just to point out the same type of meddling that the US does all across the globe in the name of “democracy” or “free market capitalism”, we were doing here, too.
I think it’s doubtful that this is all purely in the name of democracy. After all, look at what is happening to Palestine. They are a country occupied by the authoritarian state of Israel, and we do nothing. So, to me, there are other factors at play in Ukraine. One, I think, is that war is profitable. “Defense” companies like Raytheon and BAE actually have an interest in perpetuating war, as it brings in profits. So big firms are going to support giant aid packages, as it means they’re going to get business.
Another, I think, is that war is politically profitable. When you can get your party to demonize an individual or country and unite around the noble war effort, it’s just another issue you’ve manufactured to get their vote.
Anyways. I just don’t buy that this war is about democracy or any higher moral value. I think it’s about money, to be honest, and politics. Mostly money. It’s a proxy war between the US and Russia and I think the media has pushed the narrative that it is a morally imperative war between Ukraine and Russia because it is financially interested in perpetuating the conflict. I don’t think the US has an interest in actually ending the war.
And overall, I just think war is one of the greatest evils, and I will almost never support it. Real people are dying for fucking what? If that makes me a Fox News watcher, or conservative, or Putin lover, or whatever name you want to sling my way, I guess so be it. It’s dumb, but so be it.
Edit: if you’re downvoting me without a rebuttal, you’re part of the problem that I’m referring to – a complete dismissal of dissenting opinion on the war. If you disagree with what I’ve said, please comment why because I’d like to hear your viewpoint so that I can adjust mine appropriately. I’m not interested in name-calling, but an actual conversation about this topic would be cool.
Edit: if you’re downvoting me without a rebuttal, you’re part of the problem that I’m referring to – a complete dismissal of dissenting opinion on the war. If you disagree with what I’ve said, please comment why
People on the internet don’t owe you a debate.
Especially when the prompt is a somewhat sanctimonious effort-dump sealioning “we should let Russia have Ukraine” as if its a reasonable liberal imperative, all in response to a stupid one-liner.
Thank you for the insults, I guess the point of my effort dump is moreso that I dont think it’s really as black and white as people make it, I think it deserves some nuance. Which is a little ironic because you summed the whole thing up in six words! Haha
But no, I don’t think it’s very unreasonable to be against a war. You do? I do not support Russia. But I don’t think the US should be sending military aid to Ukraine.
Your entire rant boils down to “I disagree with Russia’s invasion, but since they did it anyway they should have no consequences, even when they commit genocide”. A conversation isn’t required to counter this dogshit position.
No amount of nuance will make your core position tenable to those that think Ukraine deserves outside (e.g. NATO) support to protect them from the Russian invaders. You simply don’t think Ukraine deserves support, condemning them to genocide. Everything else you said is weird posturing to try and disguise your actual point. It’s not our first rodeo, we can all see right through this.
I don’t think they should be condemned to genocide, but I don’t think we should be sending them weapons. I think Biden should be talking to Putin in some capacity, which he is not. Radio silence. I think that exacerbates the war.
I don’t think this weird moral imperative is real, like we’re America so we ought to do something. I don’t think that it’s real because, just like in Russia, where you’ve got an active conflict and you’ve got some Russian propaganda calling for the denazification (what you’ve correctly referred to as genocidal) you also have, in Israel, active conflict of genocidal nature between Israel against Palestinians, but we do nothing.
So you’re saying, we, America should condemn Palestine to genocide? Or how about the Uhygur peoples? Should we engage in a proxy war with China? Certainly, according to your claims that otherwise we are dooming them to genocide by their occupying country.
That moral imperative you’re talking about is fabricated, because if the US government actually cared about these people – Ukrainians, Palestinians, or Uhygur – we’d be sending military aid to all of them, or else we’d be “condemning them to genocide,” as you say.
This aid is not going to Ukraine to help them endure genocidal forces. It’s going there to perpetuate our constant war economy that is reliant on conflict. It’s going there to unite the political party against an outside evil and to further the US geopolitical and global free-market goals.
I already don’t watch any of that drivel so you got yourself a deal buddy. You just go ahead and let me know when you want to uphold your end and dump fox news.
You said you’d consider dumping fox news when I stopped watching the programs you mentioned. That sounded like a pact to me.
The problem with all news media these days is it no longer gives you the facts without it also telling you how you should feel about the facts based on their particular biases. If you only look to the sources that confirm your bias you’re not getting properly informed on the issues, you’re simply existing in an echo chamber having your views reaffirmed by the others that share them without ever hearing or considering there might be more to the story.
I never claimed to be above being affected by this myself, but I am consciously aware of how serious a problem it is. I do the best I’m able to see all sides of an issue, from multiple sources, the more non-biased the better (though this is getting increasingly more difficult), and then I make up my own mind as to what I think without allowing the media to tell me how I should feel.
Fox news is one of the worst sources for biased news as it is the only news network that was started with the agenda of specifically appealing towards a conservative audience. They have even won defamation lawsuits by arguing their shows are performances and shouldn’t be taken as fact. They’ve always cared more about ratings than the truth… MSNBC is a close second on spewing drivel catering to liberals. I wouldn’t trust anything either of them say without first doing some independent research on my own.
Removed by mod
Draining the resources of geopolitical rival without dead troops, weapons exports and lucrative contracts for reconstruction.
You should read war is a racket https://ratical.org/ratville/CAH/warisaracket.html
The guy who wrote it, smedley butler, was a highly decorated major general
Capital loves war which is why the US has been at war for something like 92% of its miserable existence. Of course the average person gets fucked
Removed by mod
Sadly yes, the US benefits WE don’t
Buy stocks and join the cynic train.
Being a communist and a war profiteer are incompatible
But what if I want dead US troops?
Be the change you want to see in the world
We all do
well it’s making europe reliant on US energy, for one (with all the ramifications that entails)
And getting NATO to ‘pay their fair share’
to Northrop on top of it
According to the most cliche liberal line: the US is killing Russia’s soldiers with no loss of American blood and putting old equipment to good use while bolstering domestic military industrial complex to acquire new stockpiles.
It’s a great return of investment.
No, workers staying healthy through preventative care is not a “return on investment.” Stop talking about healthcare.
deleted by creator
Maybe you should stop plowing into other countries yourselves, you bloodthirsty psychos.
deleted by creator
Yeah, invasions are out of fashion. All the West does is make a country’s development contingent on their willingness to let the West exploit their natural resources and labor and then cut said development if they fund a social program or coup them if the “locals” are uncooperative. All after gutting these countries for hundreds of years via colonialism. You don’t need to do an invasion when you can just put a noose around the neck of a country.
Oh and the West still does invasions look at Libya, Iraq, Afghanistan, and Syria. And UK special forces have been in Syria, the Sudan, Nigeria, and others as recently as last year.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/may/23/uk-special-forces-have-operated-secretly-in-19-countries-since-2011
Average neoliberal Pirate. Your bloodthirsty country should return all the gold and art that was stolen from all around the world.
PD: Read about neocolonialism.
deleted by creator
Yeah neocolonialism the thing Russia is attempting right now. If you oppose neocolonialism you should oppose Russia.
Or do you just hate western countries for fashy past grievances reasons?
Hey, Space Neoliberalist. If you ever touch some real theory (instead of reading Harry Potter and The Washington Post), like Lenin. You would know that this is an inter-capitalist conflict (you know what that means?). If you think that USA is helping in good faith (and not in the interest of colonialism exploitation in the long run), you are an idiot.
So denouncing the crimes of the west is fascist now?
-“Hey USA shouldn’t have supported dictatorships in Latin America with their Plan Cóndor, or helped in the coup against the democratic elected Salvador Allende. Or dropped two atomic bombs in two civilian cities, or having the highest incarcerated population doing slave labor, or burn with napalm villages, or puting children in cages in the border, or….”. I could be all night talking about USA crimes. A whole month with the Nato members crimes.
-”Shut up fascist.”
Is always projetion with you liberals. Scrath a liberal, and a bloodthirsty nafo fascist bleeds.
The problem with “both sides” arguments is you tacitly admitting your side is wrong when you do that.
Yeah sure the US shouldn’t have done those things in the past. But these are past grievances, which is the cornerstone of fascist thinking. “Our present day horrible actions are justified because of the horrible things others have done in the past!”
Whatever US and any other NATO members did wrong in the past doesn’t make what Russia is doing today right.
Also, why should Ukrainians suffer so that Russia can expand their empire?
I have no doubt about the ability of fascists to go on and on about past grievances. But what grievance do you have with Ukraine specifically?
The
are strong in this one.
You clearly didn’t read the Lenin book I linked and, by seeing your activity in here, you are close to the ban.
So I just want to say that is so fucking funny that you think that the passing of time exonerates USA from their crimes. I mean, how much time has to pass? They are still putting children in cages, invading countries, having the highest incarcerated population, making coups in foreign countries, etc.
But let’s follow your logic, and let’s wait a few years. That way all the Russian crimes will be just past grievances.
Let’s just do that.
Fascist idiot
Why should ukranians suffer so that the us can expand its empire?
It was wrong for the US to coup Ukraine’s government, but also wrong for Russia to intervene to stop the coup government from killing civilians after like 8 years, got it.
Bud I’m begging you read one serious academic text analyzing the rise and system of fascism, before you do something embarrassing like call indigenous people complaining about what the US has done to them fascists for airing past grievances.
Holy shit at least look the fucking word up in a dictionary before you try to turn it around on someone else you buffoon
Even if you were going to butcher the term ‘colonialism’ THAT’S the one that’s relevant if a country is being occupied militarily.
WHY DO YOU SPEAK AT ALL. YOU NEED SO MUCH READING AND LISTENING BEFORE YOU STOP SPEAKING NONSENSE. INVESTIGATE WHAT YOU SAY AAAAAAAA
Neocolonialism understander has logged on
How dare you call me a murderer? I haven’t killed anyone in almost two years!
Except that in this case they are saying that while killing someone.
AKSHULLY right now I’m just repeatedly stabbing a man. We can’t know for certain if he’s actually dead until I’m done.
Tell that to Yemen.
Also ‘we haven’t invaded anywhere in the very immediate past (though the genocidal war criminals who perpetrated our last invasion are still important and celebrated public figures)’ is a pretty fucking weak justification from a country insisting on being world police.
Absolute brain worms claiming this as a talking point
Removed by mod
deleted by creator
Noticing you didn’t defend the other two instances
We were literally in Libya bombing civilians and training al quaeda cells just 12 years ago
They were in Afghanistan until 2014
https://www.nam.ac.uk/explore/war-afghanistan
huh, i see comments like yours and i think “lib moron” and then i don’t give it another thought.
No the message to other dictators is ‘be useful to us, or else’
yeah exactly
This would be a great emoji
Probably a two part emoji or it’s too small.
https://hexbear.net/post/310898
What message is America sending to the dictators that we bankroll while they perform genocide using US equipment and training?
Those are the other dictators. There’s also our dictators - those are the good ones!
Do you think the west has a genuine interest in consistently enforcing this or do you just not care when people you like do it?
Only white countries though, when it comes to black people and brown people you don’t give a rats ass, there’s still dictators all over the world that none of you even give a s*** about
That’s fine but why are they banning socialist parties, integrating fascist paramilitaries into the army, and privatizing land? That all seems a little familiar.
Yeah we’ve really cultivated a lot of prestiege on this one, the west definitely hasn’t absolutely embarrassed itself and unified large swathes of the world against it. And hey, it only took like three rounds of sabotaged peace talks and and multiple generations of Ukranians fed into a big novelty Northrop-Grumman branded meat grinder.
You mean like the collective west did to Yugoslavia, Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya? Who’s supposed to send the message to our dictators when it’s time to stop?
only WE plough into other countries USA! USA! USA!
You could say the same thing but with putin sending the message and it would be more acurate.
For some people, everything has to be a conspiracy. Logical, easily verifiable reasons for things can’t possibly be the truth to them. Especially if it comes from the opposing political party, it is automatically false to them. Even if verifiable.
Honestly I wasn’t sure of the benefit either, but your response makes so much sense. I don’t know why there always has to be conspiracies for obvious stuff.
This is giving “the UN is an effective international governance body” energy.
*Except if that country is Palestine. They can get ploughed
We’re giving Ukraine our table scraps that are too nice to toss, but too expensive to keep. They’re using them to defeat a long-standing geopolitical foe at no costs to American lives.
Ukraine doesn’t need dirt to get our help, this is the best money the US has spent since Lend-Lease.
When Russia is defeated.
It’s sending a message to authoritarians. Don’t invade countries or we’ll send the other country stuff to make it go badly for you. This has a chilling effect on authoritarians, making them refrain from this kind of activity. This improves global security, which results in better trade, which improves the global economy. The US being on the globe benefits from this.
Also, do you like how much you’re paying for groceries? Could it be this war is causing a disruption in grain supply? You know that stuff that goes into bread, the feed that cows eat, etc? Yeah, I know people on the internet are all blaming their own governments (in basically every country, LOL) for high grocery prices, because no one wants to say that’s it’s Putin. Sure there is probably some assholes jacking up the prices more than necessary, but do you think all the corporations and all of the governments got together and decided to do this? Nope the inflation, the high grocery prices, it’s because of Putin’s bullshit.
Not to mention all of the influence campaigns Russia is running on the internet. You know where you’re constantly being influenced by the internet towards burning down the capital of your own country? That’s a disinformation campaign designed to destabilize NATO countries. Taking down Putin will lessen that buillshit. I say lessen because after seeing Russia’s success other countries like China are getting in on that game now too. But one asshole at a time.
Man I wish someone sent that message to the US before they invaded Iraq and Afghanistan, carpet bombed Syria and Libya, and funded various forms of jihadist militant groups for the past 20+ years.
There’s exactly one county that’s been toppling democracies and bankrolling dictators for almost a 100 years and it’s
baby.
And people were worried when CatholicSocialist got banned that we wouldn’t hook any more whales
We should keep this one around, he’s kinda funny, when he’s not dropping the epic chungus racism one-liners
I just noticed that this is an away game lol
Not really our call here if they stick around or not
The posters crusades
Imagine being an unironic NAFO loser.
yeah its definitely putin’s fault everything is more expensive and not corporate greedy price-gouging. remember, everything is putin’s fault! the west is perfect!
Snowball ruined the windmill!
Seeing how you NAFO psychos behave has actually completely convinced me that the only path forward is to burn DC (and Langley) to the ground and that NATO must be dismantled if there’s ever going to be lasting peace. Congratulations.
Not Langley! That’s where I live! LOL
A little secret, don’t tell anyone… I’m a member of NAFO because I bought some stickers from their website. Everything else you got going on is just paranoid delusions that you came to by reading too much glavset propaganda on the internet.
Comical levels of projection from the person who is incapable of anything beyond regurgitating propaganda you’d find on CNN
Help i fucked up, I accidentally sent the stuff to the Saudis not the Yemenis who being invaded.
The high energy prices mean its no longer profitable to run heavy industries in europe. So the us is cannibalizing some of german industry. Thats the profit the us gets.
Supporting free and democratic Ukraine is preferable to letting fascist Russia become neighbors with NATO.
I agree wholeheartedly with supporting Ukraine, but Russia has had a land border with NATO for twenty years at this point. They just pretend they don’t so that they can cry “NATO expansionism!”
Go touch yourself to a printout of shirtless Putin on a horse. Jesus.
Removed by mod
The fact you can’t see that you’re the sucker isn’t a surprise to anyone but you. Stop watching fox news, it’s rotting your brain.
The fact that you’re assuming this person is a Fox “News” consumer is emblematic of the overall media’s coverage of the war in Ukraine. A person can be anti-war and still part of the left. But not according to you, or others who immediately jump to things like, “go back to licking Putins boot, watching Fox News, etc.” You are shutting down any sort of constructive conversation.
The media has made the war in Ukraine a moral imperative by making it democratic Ukraine vs authoritarian Russia. War makes everything black and white. So it becomes impossible to say something like, “Russia’s invasion of Ukraine is wrong” while also saying “The US should not support Ukraine with weapons.”
I am anti-war. I do not think the US should support Ukraine with weapons. To me, I am extremely skeptical of the simplistic idea that we are aiding democracy and staunching authoritarianism. I think that kind of of rhetoric pervaded the conflicts in the Middle East, and I think in those cases, it was more accepted by the public that the US was acting in a more imperialistic manner. I think that fits closer to the mark here, too.
For one thing, the US was directly involved in Ukraine’s revolution in 2014, trying to position people in power who had a more EU friendly demeanor. And they helped expand NATO bases closer to Russian borders. These two things, while they certainly do not justify Russia’s invasion, I’m sure made them feel threatened. Now, I don’t have much historical knowledge of Ukraine or Russia, but certainly they’ve had more than just a geographic relationship over the past century or so. If Russia was involved in a Mexican revolution, trying to make them friendlier to Russia rather than the US, I’m sure the US would have a problem with that. Still, the US would not be justified in invading Mexico, as Russia is not justified in invading the Ukraine. This is just to point out the same type of meddling that the US does all across the globe in the name of “democracy” or “free market capitalism”, we were doing here, too.
I think it’s doubtful that this is all purely in the name of democracy. After all, look at what is happening to Palestine. They are a country occupied by the authoritarian state of Israel, and we do nothing. So, to me, there are other factors at play in Ukraine. One, I think, is that war is profitable. “Defense” companies like Raytheon and BAE actually have an interest in perpetuating war, as it brings in profits. So big firms are going to support giant aid packages, as it means they’re going to get business.
Another, I think, is that war is politically profitable. When you can get your party to demonize an individual or country and unite around the noble war effort, it’s just another issue you’ve manufactured to get their vote.
Anyways. I just don’t buy that this war is about democracy or any higher moral value. I think it’s about money, to be honest, and politics. Mostly money. It’s a proxy war between the US and Russia and I think the media has pushed the narrative that it is a morally imperative war between Ukraine and Russia because it is financially interested in perpetuating the conflict. I don’t think the US has an interest in actually ending the war.
And overall, I just think war is one of the greatest evils, and I will almost never support it. Real people are dying for fucking what? If that makes me a Fox News watcher, or conservative, or Putin lover, or whatever name you want to sling my way, I guess so be it. It’s dumb, but so be it.
Edit: if you’re downvoting me without a rebuttal, you’re part of the problem that I’m referring to – a complete dismissal of dissenting opinion on the war. If you disagree with what I’ve said, please comment why because I’d like to hear your viewpoint so that I can adjust mine appropriately. I’m not interested in name-calling, but an actual conversation about this topic would be cool.
People on the internet don’t owe you a debate.
Especially when the prompt is a somewhat sanctimonious effort-dump sealioning “we should let Russia have Ukraine” as if its a reasonable liberal imperative, all in response to a stupid one-liner.
Thank you for the insults, I guess the point of my effort dump is moreso that I dont think it’s really as black and white as people make it, I think it deserves some nuance. Which is a little ironic because you summed the whole thing up in six words! Haha
But no, I don’t think it’s very unreasonable to be against a war. You do? I do not support Russia. But I don’t think the US should be sending military aid to Ukraine.
Edit: or, I mean against this war
Your entire rant boils down to “I disagree with Russia’s invasion, but since they did it anyway they should have no consequences, even when they commit genocide”. A conversation isn’t required to counter this dogshit position.
Well, I actually didn’t say any of that, but thanks for stripping any nuance from what I said, creating a strawman, and then attacking that, instead.
No amount of nuance will make your core position tenable to those that think Ukraine deserves outside (e.g. NATO) support to protect them from the Russian invaders. You simply don’t think Ukraine deserves support, condemning them to genocide. Everything else you said is weird posturing to try and disguise your actual point. It’s not our first rodeo, we can all see right through this.
I don’t think they should be condemned to genocide, but I don’t think we should be sending them weapons. I think Biden should be talking to Putin in some capacity, which he is not. Radio silence. I think that exacerbates the war.
I don’t think this weird moral imperative is real, like we’re America so we ought to do something. I don’t think that it’s real because, just like in Russia, where you’ve got an active conflict and you’ve got some Russian propaganda calling for the denazification (what you’ve correctly referred to as genocidal) you also have, in Israel, active conflict of genocidal nature between Israel against Palestinians, but we do nothing.
So you’re saying, we, America should condemn Palestine to genocide? Or how about the Uhygur peoples? Should we engage in a proxy war with China? Certainly, according to your claims that otherwise we are dooming them to genocide by their occupying country.
That moral imperative you’re talking about is fabricated, because if the US government actually cared about these people – Ukrainians, Palestinians, or Uhygur – we’d be sending military aid to all of them, or else we’d be “condemning them to genocide,” as you say.
This aid is not going to Ukraine to help them endure genocidal forces. It’s going there to perpetuate our constant war economy that is reliant on conflict. It’s going there to unite the political party against an outside evil and to further the US geopolitical and global free-market goals.
Removed by mod
I already don’t watch any of that drivel so you got yourself a deal buddy. You just go ahead and let me know when you want to uphold your end and dump fox news.
Removed by mod
You said you’d consider dumping fox news when I stopped watching the programs you mentioned. That sounded like a pact to me.
The problem with all news media these days is it no longer gives you the facts without it also telling you how you should feel about the facts based on their particular biases. If you only look to the sources that confirm your bias you’re not getting properly informed on the issues, you’re simply existing in an echo chamber having your views reaffirmed by the others that share them without ever hearing or considering there might be more to the story.
I never claimed to be above being affected by this myself, but I am consciously aware of how serious a problem it is. I do the best I’m able to see all sides of an issue, from multiple sources, the more non-biased the better (though this is getting increasingly more difficult), and then I make up my own mind as to what I think without allowing the media to tell me how I should feel.
Fox news is one of the worst sources for biased news as it is the only news network that was started with the agenda of specifically appealing towards a conservative audience. They have even won defamation lawsuits by arguing their shows are performances and shouldn’t be taken as fact. They’ve always cared more about ratings than the truth… MSNBC is a close second on spewing drivel catering to liberals. I wouldn’t trust anything either of them say without first doing some independent research on my own.
Removed by mod
Ok what rational motive is there for supporting Putin? I’ll wait.