I run some of those services that people use. 24/7
I have been doing so for years.
That does costs a lot of time and energy, i ask nothing
In return.
Well except they they wont be upset with me
In person when i end up going dark. ( I’ll make sure to opensource provide it all naturally. )
Right now on lemmy, you are using a free service running on someones computer, there are no ads nor subscriptions to support it. If it would then i would be spinning up my own instance quicker then bender can imagine his own themapark.
The alternative isn’t just possible, but the default way people have gotten things done since prehistoric times. Do things because we want to, share resources, providing for others. Lift everyone else up and you too will rise.
What i see when i observe services that complain about not being able to sustain without some form of financing is a lack of motivation and passion. To me they are a red flag that they are disfunctioneel by nature. I lose completely faith in there ability to provide competence or quality.
Of course i do understand that being unwilling to compromise morality under treat of poverty is an exception rather then rule.
But honestly how people do this shit and
Not want to kill themselves in shame is actually weird to me.
Lemmy only survives today because people donate, which I did talk about in my subsequent comments which is exactly my point. It’s not ad supported now (most instances aren’t at any rate) but there are absolutely ad supported fediverse services, and if it gets bigger, it likely will run ads because more users means more content, more bandwidth, more electricity etc. The alternative is possible small scale, when you don’t have billions of users per day. There’s a threshold where the number of users far exceed a what even a group of people can put into a project like Lemmy without needing additional funding.
So either the majority of Lemmy users pays to use the service through subs or donations, or this won’t last either.
I have nothing against having the option to donate, which has worked for many projects.
The idea you are sketching, it is a possible reality but that is the bad future to me.
There’s a threshold where the number of users makes it impossible for your service to still have any real sense of identity or intend and it ought to be broken up in smaller parts.
Some of the larger instances have already passed that threshold in my opinion.
You did mention the solution, “The alternative is possible small scale”
The good future is where every family has their own private instance and every business and service has their own public one, interconnected.
Keep things small, manageable, focused and responsible.
I do agree this (fediverse) likely won’t last, not with so many predators waiting to grab a piece. Web3 is not here yet, as much as meta threads want to believe we are it.
That doesn’t sound reasonable for a lot of reasons. The idea that each family can host their own instance (which still has costs, and as you reasonably pointed out can’t generally be done with a server in the basement because of broadband laws preventing that kind of usage, is kind of ludicrous. That would lead to an internet where only people with money would be able to host a website of any kind. And even then, public services (video hosting, cloud storage, news, any kind of public service or so on) wouldn’t get anything out of the deal so why would they let you connect to them and mirror their content?
Also, if we keep things small scale, social networks die because new people aren’t coming in to replace dead accounts as people leave. So what happens then? Those social networks die. Social network sites like Lemmy and mastodon and so on need people. Without people to post content and people to consume it the site is basically just an empty husk of random 1’s and 0’s.
Keep things responsible? How do we do that? You’ve given me an outline of an idea you have but it’s all broad strokes and no details.
There is a lot to unpack here. I think you misunderstand how the fediverse we’re part of is designed for the dynamic I’m explaining.
First, I never claimed not everyone can afford self-hosting (that does not need to be) in their basement. You might be mixing up someone else’s comment. In many cases its cheaper then joining someone else’s.
Modern modems are already built with similar hardware to what’s needed for self-hosting a small domain. Computers have become so cheap and accessible that it is trivial. For example, a Raspberry Pi can host many things for under $50.
I also discovered yesterday that a public “hackerspace” near me is saving computers from landfills precisely to be given away for free and used for self hosting + sharing the knowledge on how to set it up.
I’m curious where you live that self-hosting is illegal. That’s a law I’d find so repulsive I’d need to break it on principle.
Your ideas about decentralized systems seem contradictory. You say only the rich could host under fediverse, but also believe it’s illegal to self-host?
Dont ask why big centralized services would connect to ours and instead ask what reason we have to connect to centralized systems.
I run my own cloud server; it’s cheaper than a subscriptions. People are designing decentralized video hosting systems like PeerTube where everyone hosts their own videos. The proof is all around you here.
The fediverse operates exactly how you say is impossible. The question isn’t why big servers would allow connections, but why I’d connect to centralized domains with so many decentralized alternatives available.
It’s surprising you’re here without knowing this. Maybe it’s a sign decentralization is going mainstream?
You asked a more detailed explanation of how this works.
Here’s how decentralized social media and web 3 actually works, right here and now.
1. Instead of one central server, there are many independent servers (instances) run by different individuals or groups.
2. You create an account on one instance, but can interact with users on any instance.
3. When you post, it’s stored on your home instance. Other instances your followers are on fetch and display your post to them.
4. If you want to follow someone on another instance, your server connects to theirs to get their posts. (The ability to connect = federated)
5. Each instance owner sets their own rules and can choose which other instances to federate with.
6. You can move your account between instances, taking your followers with you. (Wip)
7. Popular fediverse platforms like Mastodon, Lemmy, and PeerTube all work this way, allowing cross-platform interaction.
This system allows for a social media experience similar to centralized platforms, but with more user control and privacy. No single entity owns all the data or controls the entire network.
Here is video from the Free Software Foundation which is a great source if you want to learn more about the hows and why.
I haven’t read everything in this comment yet because to be honest it’s a lot. But one fundamental thing I think you misunderstood about what is said is the bit about it being illegal to self host. While there’s no law against using residential broadband service for the purposes of a web server, there’s definitely a lot of sections of the TOS for broadband service that prohibit this and those have been deemed to be legal and enforceable.
I claimed everyone can’t afford self hosting, and that’s because it’s true. Not everyone has the kind of Internet setup or computer that would allow it regardless of what you’re saying about older computer’s and raspberry pi, and that doesn’t even take into account the fact that it still requires technical knowledge, not just of running a server or a network, but also of the security measures that would be required to do so to protect yourself.
The thing is, you hadn’t before now, laid out what you assumed that the fediverse in your vision would function as, you just threw some quick terms at me attached sort of tangentially to the fediverse and assumed that I would know what you meant. I’ll continue reading this when I have more time but, I just don’t understand the motivation anyone would have to join Subway’s instance. Or why they’d want to be federated with it.
The way we the internet want to build the better system is called “web3” if you look this up youl find whole sites and even books written about it
(but watch out for crypto scammers framing it)
Pretty much al you appear to be worried about comes from a web2 understanding of the internet.
The fediverse is supposed to be web3 in action. To me its more like a prototype.
I run some of those services that people use. 24/7 I have been doing so for years.
That does costs a lot of time and energy, i ask nothing In return. Well except they they wont be upset with me In person when i end up going dark. ( I’ll make sure to opensource provide it all naturally. )
Right now on lemmy, you are using a free service running on someones computer, there are no ads nor subscriptions to support it. If it would then i would be spinning up my own instance quicker then bender can imagine his own themapark.
The alternative isn’t just possible, but the default way people have gotten things done since prehistoric times. Do things because we want to, share resources, providing for others. Lift everyone else up and you too will rise.
What i see when i observe services that complain about not being able to sustain without some form of financing is a lack of motivation and passion. To me they are a red flag that they are disfunctioneel by nature. I lose completely faith in there ability to provide competence or quality.
Of course i do understand that being unwilling to compromise morality under treat of poverty is an exception rather then rule.
But honestly how people do this shit and Not want to kill themselves in shame is actually weird to me.
Lemmy only survives today because people donate, which I did talk about in my subsequent comments which is exactly my point. It’s not ad supported now (most instances aren’t at any rate) but there are absolutely ad supported fediverse services, and if it gets bigger, it likely will run ads because more users means more content, more bandwidth, more electricity etc. The alternative is possible small scale, when you don’t have billions of users per day. There’s a threshold where the number of users far exceed a what even a group of people can put into a project like Lemmy without needing additional funding.
So either the majority of Lemmy users pays to use the service through subs or donations, or this won’t last either.
I have nothing against having the option to donate, which has worked for many projects.
The idea you are sketching, it is a possible reality but that is the bad future to me.
There’s a threshold where the number of users makes it impossible for your service to still have any real sense of identity or intend and it ought to be broken up in smaller parts. Some of the larger instances have already passed that threshold in my opinion.
You did mention the solution, “The alternative is possible small scale” The good future is where every family has their own private instance and every business and service has their own public one, interconnected.
Keep things small, manageable, focused and responsible.
I do agree this (fediverse) likely won’t last, not with so many predators waiting to grab a piece. Web3 is not here yet, as much as meta threads want to believe we are it.
That doesn’t sound reasonable for a lot of reasons. The idea that each family can host their own instance (which still has costs, and as you reasonably pointed out can’t generally be done with a server in the basement because of broadband laws preventing that kind of usage, is kind of ludicrous. That would lead to an internet where only people with money would be able to host a website of any kind. And even then, public services (video hosting, cloud storage, news, any kind of public service or so on) wouldn’t get anything out of the deal so why would they let you connect to them and mirror their content?
Also, if we keep things small scale, social networks die because new people aren’t coming in to replace dead accounts as people leave. So what happens then? Those social networks die. Social network sites like Lemmy and mastodon and so on need people. Without people to post content and people to consume it the site is basically just an empty husk of random 1’s and 0’s.
Keep things responsible? How do we do that? You’ve given me an outline of an idea you have but it’s all broad strokes and no details.
There is a lot to unpack here. I think you misunderstand how the fediverse we’re part of is designed for the dynamic I’m explaining.
First, I never claimed not everyone can afford self-hosting (that does not need to be) in their basement. You might be mixing up someone else’s comment. In many cases its cheaper then joining someone else’s.
Modern modems are already built with similar hardware to what’s needed for self-hosting a small domain. Computers have become so cheap and accessible that it is trivial. For example, a Raspberry Pi can host many things for under $50.
I also discovered yesterday that a public “hackerspace” near me is saving computers from landfills precisely to be given away for free and used for self hosting + sharing the knowledge on how to set it up.
I’m curious where you live that self-hosting is illegal. That’s a law I’d find so repulsive I’d need to break it on principle.
Your ideas about decentralized systems seem contradictory. You say only the rich could host under fediverse, but also believe it’s illegal to self-host?
Dont ask why big centralized services would connect to ours and instead ask what reason we have to connect to centralized systems. I run my own cloud server; it’s cheaper than a subscriptions. People are designing decentralized video hosting systems like PeerTube where everyone hosts their own videos. The proof is all around you here.
The fediverse operates exactly how you say is impossible. The question isn’t why big servers would allow connections, but why I’d connect to centralized domains with so many decentralized alternatives available.
It’s surprising you’re here without knowing this. Maybe it’s a sign decentralization is going mainstream?
You asked a more detailed explanation of how this works.
Here’s how decentralized social media and web 3 actually works, right here and now.
1. Instead of one central server, there are many independent servers (instances) run by different individuals or groups.
2. You create an account on one instance, but can interact with users on any instance.
3. When you post, it’s stored on your home instance. Other instances your followers are on fetch and display your post to them.
4. If you want to follow someone on another instance, your server connects to theirs to get their posts. (The ability to connect = federated)
5. Each instance owner sets their own rules and can choose which other instances to federate with.
6. You can move your account between instances, taking your followers with you. (Wip)
7. Popular fediverse platforms like Mastodon, Lemmy, and PeerTube all work this way, allowing cross-platform interaction.
This system allows for a social media experience similar to centralized platforms, but with more user control and privacy. No single entity owns all the data or controls the entire network.
Here is video from the Free Software Foundation which is a great source if you want to learn more about the hows and why.
https://www.fsf.org/blogs/community/user-liberation-watch-and-share-our-new-video
I haven’t read everything in this comment yet because to be honest it’s a lot. But one fundamental thing I think you misunderstood about what is said is the bit about it being illegal to self host. While there’s no law against using residential broadband service for the purposes of a web server, there’s definitely a lot of sections of the TOS for broadband service that prohibit this and those have been deemed to be legal and enforceable.
I claimed everyone can’t afford self hosting, and that’s because it’s true. Not everyone has the kind of Internet setup or computer that would allow it regardless of what you’re saying about older computer’s and raspberry pi, and that doesn’t even take into account the fact that it still requires technical knowledge, not just of running a server or a network, but also of the security measures that would be required to do so to protect yourself.
The thing is, you hadn’t before now, laid out what you assumed that the fediverse in your vision would function as, you just threw some quick terms at me attached sort of tangentially to the fediverse and assumed that I would know what you meant. I’ll continue reading this when I have more time but, I just don’t understand the motivation anyone would have to join Subway’s instance. Or why they’d want to be federated with it.
If my explanation is to complex you dont need to take my word for it.
Definitely watch this video: https://www.fsf.org/blogs/community/user-liberation-watch-and-share-our-new-video
The way we the internet want to build the better system is called “web3” if you look this up youl find whole sites and even books written about it (but watch out for crypto scammers framing it)
Pretty much al you appear to be worried about comes from a web2 understanding of the internet.
The fediverse is supposed to be web3 in action. To me its more like a prototype.
It’s not that it’s complex. It’s that before I lacked context and now my brain has moved on to other things for the moment.
Understandable, have a good day.