I have been seeing plenty of guillhotine and mollotov jokes here, and as the title says, punching nazis.

I’ve been reading a book about nonviolence and anarchism, and he basically shows how we shouldn’t use violence, even in extreme cases (like neo nazis).

The main argument is that the means dictates the ends, so if we want a non violent (and non opressing) society, punching people won’t help.

And if it is just a joke, you should probably know that some people have been jailed for decades because of jokes like these (see: avoiding the fbi, second chapter of the book above).

Obviously im up for debate, or else I wouldn’t make this post. And yes, I do stand for nonviolence.

(english is not my first language, im sorry if I made errors, or wansn’t clear.)

(if this is not pertinent, I can remake this post in c/politics or something)

(the book is The Anarchist Cookbook by Keith McHenry, if you are downloading from the internet, make sure you download it from the correct author, there is another book with the same name.)

  • xorEnglish
    2·
    2 days ago

    Because in your scenario they are not a threat of imminent violence, and by being a vigilante you prevent society from enforcing consequences in the way the social contract defines - through the justice system.

    Now, in a scenario where they are about to commit violence, or the justice system has failed, the balance may be different.

    • PotatoKat@lemmy.world
      3·
      2 days ago

      The social contract only applies to the tolerent. By allowing the intolerant to spread their hate you allow them to spread their ideas. Physical violence isn’t the only kind of violence. Allowing the intolerant to speak intolerance you are being tolerent of the intolerant.

      • xorEnglish
        1·
        2 days ago

        But there’s an important difference between allowing intolerance, and letting the legal system be the arbiter of how it should be disallowed.

        Vigilante justice not only deprives the perpetrator of their right to a fair trial and proportionate punishment (yes, being intolerant does not deprive you of your human rights) but also denies the victims their right to see the perpetrator receive justice.

        YOU do not get to be the arbiter of justice, just because you think someone is a terrible person. Maybe they’re mentally ill. Maybe they have dementia. Maybe they’re also a victim of abuse.

        Document the incident, protect and comfort the victim, contact the police and allow actual justice to take place.

        • PotatoKat@lemmy.world
          3·
          2 days ago

          contact the police and allow actual justice to take place

          And when the police are KKK? When the police are the Nazis? This is such a privileged perspective it’s not even funny. “Cawl the poweeeeccee” as if they haven’t historically sided with the intolerant. You have so much faith in the justice system. Law isn’t morality it’s an enforcement of what those in power want.

          This is also ignoring that intolerance isn’t illegal. So cops won’t do shit and might even arrest you for wasting their time. Fucking libs I swear. Don’t worry about it someone will do the punching for you while you stay back and call the cops for them to shoot a nearby dog or arrest the black person in the situation.

          Also I said why other than law because I assumed you knew that law doesn’t function to enforce tolerance. Clearly I overestimated you.

          • xorEnglish
            1·
            2 days ago

            Now, in a scenario where they are about to commit violence, or the justice system has failed, the balance may be different

            Left your reading comprehension at home?

            The argument I was supporting is that you don’t have carte blanche to do whatever you want to intolerant people. The argument I am making is that you have a moral obligation to rely on the law first because that IS the social contract. Not because the law would punish you for it.

            Not all police are the same everywhere, but regardless, you can’t just stab people who are being racist.

            • PotatoKat@lemmy.world
              3·
              2 days ago

              The justice system is failing by allowing them to spew and spread their intolerance. They are creating a society that make minorities fear (look at Springfield with literal kkk fliers going around). We should create a society where the intolerant are fearful of spreading their message.

              And nobody suggested carte blanche except you and the person you’re supporting (aka a strawman). A punch isn’t a gunshot, it isn’t a stabbing, and it isn’t torture. Their violent rhetoric should be met with violence to make them fear spreading their message.

              When the law doesnt align with what’s right then relying on the law is pointless. The law will defend their ability to spread intolerance because the law is tolerant of the intolerant.