Ten Chinese air force aircraft entered Taiwan's air defence zone on Wednesday accompanying five Chinese warships engaged in "combat readiness" patrols, the island's defence ministry said, the second such incursion this week.
You are so far right that you call anything and everything to your left astroturfing. You’ve been in a bubble for so long that it’s a culture shock when you meet actual leftists.
Oh, yes. Actual leftists that somehow support every action of a particular nation. Actual leftists who don’t mind government control of information and gives incentives for supporting them publicly. Actual leftists that are ok with some people being removed from society because of the groups they belong to. Yep, totally sounds like actual leftists to me…
Actual leftists who don’t mind government control of information
Yes, actual leftists. I’m going to quote to you some Marx. This is from Chapter 2 of the Communist Manifesto which is basically a 30 page pamphlet, I suggest you read it. I want you to pay particular attention to number 6.
The proletariat will use its political supremacy to wrest, by degree, all capital from the bourgeoisie, to centralise all instruments of production in the hands of the State, i.e., of the proletariat organised as the ruling class; and to increase the total productive forces as rapidly as possible.
Of course, in the beginning, this cannot be effected except by means of despotic inroads on the rights of property, and on the conditions of bourgeois production; by means of measures, therefore, which appear economically insufficient and untenable, but which, in the course of the movement, outstrip themselves, necessitate further inroads upon the old social order, and are unavoidable as a means of entirely revolutionising the mode of production.
These measures will, of course, be different in different countries.
Nevertheless, in most advanced countries, the following will be pretty generally applicable.
Abolition of property in land and application of all rents of land to public purposes.
A heavy progressive or graduated income tax.
Abolition of all rights of inheritance.
Confiscation of the property of all emigrants and rebels.
Centralisation of credit in the hands of the state, by means of a national bank with State capital and an exclusive monopoly.
Centralisation of the means of communication and transport in the hands of the State.
Extension of factories and instruments of production owned by the State; the bringing into cultivation of waste-lands, and the improvement of the soil generally in accordance with a common plan.
Equal liability of all to work. Establishment of industrial armies, especially for agriculture.
Combination of agriculture with manufacturing industries; gradual abolition of all the distinction between town and country by a more equable distribution of the populace over the country.
Free education for all children in public schools. Abolition of children’s factory labour in its present form. Combination of education with industrial production, &c, &c.
As you can see, nothing here is at odds with that.
Actual leftists that are ok with some people being removed from society because of the groups they belong to.
What groups? If you’re about to use Adrian Zenz as a source you are a joke. If you’re instead claiming that working to abolish the existence of the bourgeoisie is a bad thing you are a clown.
I don’t understand how people don’t understand that control of the means of communication in the hands of the proletariat is a MUST to create a DOTP. Who the fuck do they think owns the media? The proles? Fuck no, the bourgeoisie own the media. It’s ALL their media.
To empower the proletariat in the transitionary socialist state you MUST remove the advantages of the bourgeoisie. This is one of the biggest of them.
Ah but don’t you see that removing the knife from your throat before fighting The Caped Throatstabber makes you just as bad as him, because of human nature or something?
These measures will, of course, be different in different countries
Also note this part:
Of course, in the beginning, this cannot be effected except by means of despotic inroads on the rights of property, and on the conditions of bourgeois production…
Notice, “in the beginning.” Is China socialist or not? It is not the begining. The need to control the means of communication, as well as most of the rest of the goals, is to gain power over the bourgeoisie and place the power into the hands of the people. The means of communication must be seized in order to empower the people to communicate without their interference. How is the control that China has over communication providing for that and not the bourgeoisie itself controlling the media to prevent the people from communicating?
Socialism is the transitionary state between capitalism and communism. It exists in a state of warfare between the proletariat and the bourgeoisie.
We are very far away from defeating capitalism and such measures will remain in place until we have defeated it globally. What the fuck are you thinking? “Yes I want to give billionaires the ability to own media in my proletarian state so they can spew garbage propaganda until their counter-revolution succeeds”. Are you out of your mind? What exactly do you gain from this? Nothing. Absolutely nothing. All you are advocating for is empowering the bourgeoisie to crush and re-exploit you.
Ah, yes. China is definitely trying to defeat capitalism globally by opening and expanding special economic zones. If anything, China has become more capitalist (because it makes the current bourgeoisie who control the “communist” government more money). Xi Jinping seems to have an estimated value of at least $1 billion USD. He’s not of the working class. He’s from the political class.
“Freedom of the press” is another of the principal slogans of “pure democracy”. And here, too, the workers know — and socialists everywhere have admitted it millions of times — that this freedom is a deception while the best printing presses and the biggest stocks of paper are appropriated by the capitalists and while capitalist rule over the press remains, a rule that is manifested throughout the world all the more strikingly, sharply, and cynically, the more democracy and the republican system are developed, as in America for example.
The first thing to do to win real equality and genuine democracy for the working people, for the workers and peasants, is to deprive capital of the possibility of hiring writers, buying up publishing houses, and hiring newspapers. And to do that the capitalists and exploiters have to be overthrown and their resistance suppressed.
The capitalists have always used the term ‘freedom’ to mean freedom for the rich to get richer and for the workers to starve to death.
In capitalist usage, freedom of the press means freedom of the rich to bribe the press, freedom to use their wealth to shape and fabricate so-called public opinion.
In this respect, too, the defenders of ‘pure democracy’ prove to be defenders of an utterly foul and venal system that gives the rich control over the mass media. They prove to be deceivers of the people who, with the aid of plausible, fine-sounding, but thoroughly false phrases, divert them from the concrete historical task of liberating the press from capitalist enslavement.
Yes, this is exactly what I said. The control needs to be taken away from the capitalist class who control it in most places. The goal after the bourgeoisie are removed from control is for the people to have control though, not some new bourgeoisie.
Actual leftists that are ok with some people being removed from society because of the groups they belong to.
Some people should be removed from society based on the groups they belong to. Nazis, for example. Pedophiles, probably. And definitely people who put pineapple on pizza.
No, they should be removed from society based on what they want to do. I don’t think the children of nazis should be removed just because they’re a part of that group.
Ideological belief is not a trait that is automatically passed on to children. Children of Liberals aren’t automatically liberals. Children of conservatives aren’t automatically conservatives.
The topic at hand is Western media drumming up support for the US’s next foreign policy disaster. The same way they did for Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya, Syria, Vietnam and so, so many others. I would have called this bullshit before I became a communist. You don’t need Marxist theory to see through the bullshit, just object permanence.
Yes it is. Your failure to understand China’s structure and its goals is a personal failure on your part to seek that information, the information is out there.
If reading is too much for you (I suspect it is or you wouldn’t hold this opinion) then here is a very brief video by Professor Richard Wolff where he cites China as responsible for the globally rising interest in marxism.
If alternatively your position is that marxism is not leftist, you are a right wing clown and politically illiterate.
I am not near left or right, a 1 line axis is not enough to put all the political positions into account.
After reading the first link, socialism is kindof interesting at its core, but in china you have a person that controls eveything, China is a totalitarian state capitalist system. While Socialism would give people freedom, China is doing the opposite. I am not fully invested into this topic but you can’t tell me that stealing Money from bank accounts, allowing companies to do stupid investments that will become waste just to rise some numbers. Generally forbiding the fact that you have issues (disabled) or are different (religion or sexuality) is really just showing how similar this is to Hitlers time.
In Germany we have the Bundestag and its neither leftist or rightist as you elect the group you like which can be left-ist or right-ist, a group of multiple groups will be build for the few years that have together 50%. So if there is onr far-right group or far-left one, they won’t be able to actually do all the harm except people elect that group 50%.
Besides having every few years either same or slight different groups that regime, there is also the Grundgesetz which protect the Human rights at its core and is not changable except all 2 buildings and 1 person allow for this. With this, everthing should be possible while having freedom.
But for China I really don’t know what is the right thing. Its no different than America with capitalism at many levels because both intoxicate the human rights and nature environment. Somethinf like a Bundestag for China doesn’t seem like a great idea if it would be the main thing, because China wants to grow and the Bundestag is too slow for direct and instant changes. But without, you can see corruption at many corners in China.
So you are ignorant. Its ok we have all been there. To live is to learn. I would have an essay very similar to yours a couple years ago. Then I started doing some reading.
Essentially leftism v rightism boils down to either you think people all all equals and should be treated equally regardless or you believe some people are superior to others and should get to treat others as lesser. Its simple as that.
You also said “Its ok” and included that “all” have been there but its only you and the bubble community you live in like you are some superior peace of ****
If you say something is simple, then you are actually ignorant,
I didn’t say all of politics is simple. I said right vs Left is simple. Its an classification system made for the sole purpose of making a complex thing simple.
Its like you are getting hostile at me for saying “using google translate is simple” and saying “Translation is super hard. Learning a new language takes years and even then the subtleties of idioms and the nuance of culture play a significant role in how people speak. bridging the gap between two languages is super complex”
You also said “Its ok” and included that “all” have been there but its only you and the bubble community you live in like you are some superior peace of ****
I’m sorry if my tone came off as condescending but is Understanding not superior to ignorance? Ignorance is a natural state. We naturally transition from ignorance into understanding on many subjects through out our lives. There is no shame in that. clinging to ignorance however is shameful. Realizing you are ignorant is the first step to understanding. The next step is finding more information. I was just trying to encourage you. No need to be so defensive.
The part that you see me ignorant is the problem. Just because I don’t believe in socialism or capitalism or left vs right doesn’t mean I am ignorant. You somehow had an exam about leftism and rightism which did not include more standpoints because your exam topic was just left vs right. It feels like you are literally stuck in this one knowledge and can’t accept other statements. Its also called Dunning Kruger effect.
I guess you missed the point that one person has the decision to control everything, of course there will be different groups controlling the details, but this is the person who is able to change. Just saying that I should read is pretty much stupid to say, you also just could say nothing, the message would be equal.
But i just gonna be you for a moment: If you do not believe this, you need to do a lot more reading.
Just send me your articles or whatever to justify whatever you mean and don’t be a dick.
Expressing how you feel about China is fine. Calling someone else a “paranoid weirdo” is not. That’s just plain rude and disrespectful.
Edit: I feel like I should make it extra clear that I am not defending myself because several people think that I’m whining for myself. The one called a “paranoid weirdo” was not me.
Insisting that everyone who disagrees with you is a paid agent of spooky foreigners is being a paranoid weirdo. Not to mention, plain rude and disrespectful.
What do you mean by “me”? I wasn’t even the one being disrespected. I was merely speaking out for someone else. BTW no one on this thread was ever disrespectful to the 1.3 billion Chinese people. They were disrespectful to their government.
me , thomas muntzer ,pastor 1489 – 1525 , you shouldnt be disrespectfull to me , i am not chinese , i am white ! dont forget your social conditioning , reddit would not approve of this behaviour…
There’s 1.3 billion people in this thread who are supporting the PRC? There aren’t even 1.3 billion people in China supporting China. How is talking about all the nonsense in this thread being disrespectful to anyone, let alone 1.3 billion people?
Chauvinism? Wrong word choice. It’s chauvinism when you go around supporting one group from a position of prejudice, not when you attack some group, which wasn’t happening anyway. Questioning if something is happening organically isn’t the same as saying it’s bad. Skepticism is usually a virtue. Don’t accept everything you see and are told, and don’t accept that it’s happening by accident.
For the survey team, there are a number of possible explanations for why Chinese respondents view the central government in Beijing so favorably. According to Saich, a few factors include the proximity of central government from rural citizens, as well as highly positive news proliferated throughout the country.
This result supports the findings of more recent shorter-term surveys in China, and reinforces long-held patterns of citizens reporting local grievances to Beijing in hopes of central government action. “I think citizens often hear that the central government has introduced a raft of new policies, then get frustrated when they don’t always see the results of such policy proclamations, but they think it must be because of malfeasance or foot-dragging by the local government,” said Saich.
Compared to the relatively high satisfaction rates with Beijing, respondents held considerably less favorable views toward local government. At the township level, the lowest level of government surveyed, only 11.3 percent of respondents reported that they were “very satisfied.”
Again, the U.S. reveals quite a different story. “American trust surveys over time show a clear distinction between low levels of trust towards the federal government, but a strong belief and faith in the power of local government — at the most local level, those positions may be filled by part-time volunteers who are a part of your everyday life,” said Cunningham. This dichotomy is highlighted by a 2017 Gallup poll, where 70 percent of U.S. respondents had a “great” or “fair” amount of trust in local government.
Saich contends that the lack of trust in local governments in China is due to the fact that they provide the vast majority of services to the Chinese people. This trust deficit was compounded by the 1994 tax reforms, which garnered a substantially larger share of total national tax revenues for the central government. Local governments, despite being faced with declining revenues, were still on the hook for providing the bulk of public services throughout China.
“Local governments were caught between dropping tax revenue and rising expenditures,” Cunningham said. “Many local governments then had to turn to ad-hoc extra budgetary fees to close the budget gap. I think that has consistently undermined trust at the local level.”
The national government leaves the local government responsible for providing services, fucks them over, then convinces the people that it’s the local governments fault because they control the media. Of course they approve of the national government, though not the local at all so…
Also, a large part of the approval that this article states is because most of the people of China “are only a generation removed from an era of chronic food shortages and significant social and economic instability.” Its easy to improve people’s lives if they’re starting from a shitty position. We’ll see how that changes now that they’re playing in the big leagues.
Its easy to improve people’s lives if they’re starting from a shitty position. We’ll see how that changes now that they’re playing in the big leagues.
When’s capitalism planning to do that for everyone in the global south then? If you remove china from the statistics on poverty alleviation poverty has been almost stagnant for the last 50 years. China is responsible for almost all of the vaunted “improvement” in poverty. And they’ve done it without bombing dozens of countries per decade!
So you were really going to tell someone they’re cherrypicking and quoting a survey that said only 11% of people were “very satisfied” and just hope no one looked through your wall of text, huh?
China just went through a period where in a single generation they eliminated more poverty than any other country in history (save the USSR). Why is it so hard for you to believe that children born subsistence farmers would have a positive view of their government when they’re middle classed and middle aged?
You said there weren’t 1.3 billion people in China who supported the PRC. Harvard says you were wrong. We’re not talking about the minutiae of Chinese governance here, we’re talking about foreign policy.
PS: If you dig into the numbers (page 3 of the report, aka page 6 in the PDF), 70% of people are fairly or very satisfied with their township governments, so don’t be taken in by the Harvard cope–it really is bullshit.
I advise you to not waste your time arguing with these people. It’s a total waste of time. You can’t win an argument with stubborn people. Don’t be like me who wasted hours arguing with hexbear tankies. Just downvote them then go somewhere else on Lemmy.
Unless you have investigated a problem, you will be deprived of the right to speak on it.
Isn’t that too harsh? Not in the least.
When you have not probed into a problem, into the present facts and its past history, and know nothing of its essentials, whatever you say about it will undoubtedly be nonsense.
Unfortunately they’re probably real people. Most of Lemmy was full of tankies before the reddit migration so any post involving China or Russia brings them out in force.
Possibly, I didn’t look where they’re all from, nor do I know what hexbear is or why it’s significant. Sounds like some kind of intra-Lemmy drama which I’m not too interested in. Just noticed a fair amount, lets say…not totally organic, seemingly agenda pushing comments.
Edit: Forget my previous comment. I now see the problem with Hexbear.
No it’s when there’s mysteriously dozens of comments just magically showing up that are contrary to the vastly popular opinion on only one contentious issue, that serve the best interests of an entity with the time, resources to try to sway public opinion through fake grassroots posting. Also that entity has a fragile ego and a long history of online manipulation…oh and also coincidentally they are all coming from the same server
entity with the time, resources to try to sway public opinion
why would any foreign political entity waste its valuable english proficient resources on astroturfing an online backwater filled with politically illiterate nobodies? peak liberal solipsism
It would appear that way yes…and as mentioned, they have a history of having extremely thin skin and doing exactly that. So do I expect some group to do the exact thing they have always done? Yes. Yes I do.
And by “have a history of it” you mean "I’ve been told it so many times in the western echo chambers I hang out it that I just implicitly believe it.
Mate, you’ve already had it explained to you where we’re coming from, but apparently the idea of people who genuinely disagree with you is so fucking foreign to you that your redditor brain literally cannot process it, so you continue to descend into paranoid delusion.
I would like to ask you to employ some critical thinking here. Setting aside that the people responding to you have much better English than even a pretty high-level English speaker coming from Mandarin, most of these accounts have months or years of post histories spent almost entirely talking to each other on their previously un-federated instance, including in some cases very harsh arguing, as well as talking about the US on a personal level with intimate detail (and/or whatever other country they say they are from). Do you really believe the most simple answer is that this is all kabuki theater by the CPC to astroturf an obscure collection of websites by wasting a ridiculous amount of resources and the time of highly English-fluent actors? vs just “some people think differently from you”?
If you concede this point, then I would like to ask you to just consider for a moment the implications of the fact that you took the much more absurd and flimsy explanation as though it was just the common-sense explanation. What does that say about the way that you conceptualize the world and what people believe?
Again, learn what federation is, and while you’re at it, learn that racist white westerners like you are not actually “the vast popular opinion”. You’re just used to reddit, where disagreement is suppressed, so now that you’re in a space where genuine different opinion is allowed, you’re desperate into paranoia.
You’re the only one who has brought up race and are speculating what mine must be. I’m not the racist one in this conversation and I’m not the reddit-y one either. I’m not a refugee, I left that shitty site years ago bot.
There are non-white people who don’t like China because of their aggression and obvious leanings towards imperialism. I’ve got friends and family all over Eastern Asia and their countries are constantly getting into territorial spats with China, including in Japan, the Philippines, and even communist Vietnam, not to Taiwan.
You guys just love China because they represent an alternative to the western US order. Maybe if they nationalized more industries, taxed their rich more, helped their workers with universal health care, and helped their oppressed neighbors instead of shooting at them and trying to take their territory, they would be more exciting to root for. Basically, if they were more like Cuba.
No it’s when there’s mysteriously dozens of comments just magically showing up that are contrary to the vastly popular opinion on only one contentious issue, that serve the best interests of an entity with the time, resources to try to sway public opinion
Yes, anyone with half a brain can see that people from a leftist instance are contributing leftist opinions to a space they just federated with. What were you expecting?
Least deranged response after being confronted with the existential horror that capitalism causes within us and being asked to cast it aside, choosing instead to bathe in the waters of the imperial core like the river of Styx, forgetting anything else exists, freeing oneself of responsibility for their fellow human, untethered by compassion and hope for the future
Insult that has no tether to the topic at hand, inline with your other comments that just make vague allusions that could be applied to any topic. Found the bot.
I love how liberals think anybody who’s outside of their echo chamber must be a paid shill. It’s absolutely inconceivable to them that there is a significant amount of people who have contrary opinions.
I don’t know if the server you are talking about is hexbear, but they recently federated and are one of the oldest lemmy instances. Lemmygrad also has been existing a long time before lemmy became as popular as it is today.
we federated , so now the stupid Imperialsit lies show up in Hexbear , they obviously can not stay , whats you proplem with beeing Corrected ? Do you want to live in Lies Mr. Jesus ? Because you can not be Bothered to do a ideum of research before running wild with the Mob Mr. Jesus ? , you want to forbide our ?
You sound very Priveldged , trying to impose your ignorance on others , whos your Dad ?
You sound just like every other idiot that says that. Trumpers, anti-vaxxers and the like. If you have to look around for yOur Own rEsEaRcH that lines up with what you want it to say, it’s because it’s not based in facts. You guys seem to honestly think you sound smart…smh
also like every other Iraq war Opponents , Vietnam war opponents, Imperialism Opponents ,Julian Assage loyalist etc… dont forget them !
Do you accept “Dissent” at all ? and are you Capable of Processing new information ?
this is REALLY Taiwans Air identification Zone . it is NOT the Taiwanese Airspace , this is a Factuall basis. Please Just Process this new Information , the Article is really missleading , the babycrying will stop after a while , trust me . You are really wrong and most people can comprehend that after a while.
Hexbear is a large, leftist instance, that just recently federated, and most of us are pro-China. We’re not bots and we’re not getting paid, but we’re not shy about our political views. That’s the reason you’re suddenly seeing a bunch more comments defending China.
I know right! How come there are so, so many people defending China here? I thought they were the minority. Ugh. When I was back on Reddit comments like those would always be downvoted to hell.
It’s a shock to find out that the world view instilled in you as common and sensical is neither.
It’s tough to face up to that conditioning, but you can do it if you try, and if you don’t take it personally. It’s not your fault you were filled with imperialist lies, but it will be your fault if you don’t reflect
When I was back on Reddit comments like those would always be downvoted to hell.
It might be worth keeping in mind that Reddit has, for several years now, biased its moderation policy against the sort of voices who would object to OP, creating a neoliberal echochamber across most of the website.
you left a Astro Turfed , hardcore censored Faschist Imperialistic Place that spends its time telling you US lies about its enemies … things are Diffrent when you leave your hole , because You changed location , you now meet “non Rediitors” and Communist and all else thats forbidden on Reddit… , thereby you are Accuring an new Perspective …
If its Scary for you then you need to run back where you came from … where the Yellow Peril rules …
The issue is there are a much higher percentage here because brigading wasn’t allowed on reddit so they’d be banned for this type of activity. They come here and can do what they want, which is fine as long as it doesn’t hurt other people doing what they want, which in this case is arguably happening because it clutters the comments with the same thing repeated over and over, and they are organized so it’s all up voted. This doesn’t make them the majority opinion though. It makes them the organized opinion. They are not the majority by any means, but they will make sure to come to China’s defence whenever it’s mentioned, where others won’t bother.
Brigading was very much allowed on Reddit as long as it didn’t push the neoliberal imperialist status quo. Since the biggest leftist subs were banned or quarantined the shitheap of a website has seen an unceasing drumbeat of “China bad” and Cold War 2.0 propaganda, with any dissenting opinion piled on and follows across subs and threads. Often for weeks.
Rules only exist to the extent they are enforced. Words aren’t magical. Only the directed use of power gives rules reality, everything else is just so much pablum.
Yeah! It’s kind of sketchy how most hexbear.net comments here have >10 upvotes
edit: it’s also sketchy that over 95% of comments on this post are from hexbear.net, while on the average Lemmy post (not on lemmy.world) there would only be less than 20%
It may be hard to fathom for someone who’s so used to Reddit, but Hexbear users really do have a deep love for each other. Also we are really really ridiculously online.
This is kind of analogous to the “CCP is falsifying all of its own data” allegation. You can cling to some sort of dogmatic narrative like Hexbear inflating its stats à la r/the_donald, that’s exceedingly difficult to prove or draw anything conclusive from, or you can take a close look at it and see the reality that lines up with the stats.
I was curious what you were talking about as there are only 10 comments through Beehaw so I checked out the original. It’s overwhelmingly coming from hexbear.net which we’ve defederated from.
Yea, it feels like 4chan suddenly saw the light and then turned far-left all at once. They act like what the far right imagines the left to be like, but just looks like really bad anti-leftist propaganda, or they’re just tankies :/ some hexbears are ok, though, but most here are just discrediting themselves by throwing the propaganda handbook at the passersby.
This isn’t debate club nerd. Nobody is required to be nice to you. We can both offer well intentioned arguements, and also engage in the simple pleasure of calling people dipshits.
Ok when the word “shitlib” is used here we’re referring to smug, rude, arrogant, reddit-brained imbeciles who functionally support imperialism, right wing apologia, and casual bigotry. They also operate in bad faith from the get go.
Uneducated progressive “liberals” who are nonetheless openminded and empathetic are not the people who this term refers to.
Uneducated progressive “liberals” who are nonetheless openminded and empathetic are not the people who this term refers to.
This still feels a little
smug, rude, arrogant
But I’ll take it, I’m certainly not an expert on Marxism. It’s a useful method of inquiry oftentimes, but there are other worthy worldviews and subjects to spend time on that hardly make me uneducated.
I wasn’t referring to you in particular, I was referring to describing types of “liberals” in general. I am not implying that there is something inherently wrong with being uneducated. Everybody is uneducated in a variety of fields outside of their own expertise, such as nuclear physics, foraging, farming, etc. Similarly, most american progressives simply do not know what the terms “left” and “right” mean in a political context, therefore, they are uneducated. Rather, I was implying that these progressives are well meaning, good-hearted people who just need a bit more knowledge as to where they could direct their energy towards political change. I apologize if it came off as condescending, maybe I should have used the term “unactivated” or “new to politics”.
but there are other worthy worldviews and subjects to spend time on that hardly make me uneducated
Thats good, keep reading. If you are interested in politics then I would recommend reading the works of Micheal Parenti.
Yeah, mostly agree, people are kept from thinking and complaining too much by being overworked, stressed, distracted, manipulated, demotivated, denied access, captured by cults, etc :/ sooo … fuck IP law and let’s get pirating, books ain’t gonna read themselves :D
Yea, it feels like 4chan suddenly saw the light and then turned far-left all at once
Exactly this. They’re running around spewing barely-sensical insults acting like they’re dunking on people, but all their really doing is turning off anyone who was ever possibly sympathetic to their cause. And are completely un-informed on top of that
Yes. You’re starting to get it. Being willfully uninformed and forcefully pushing that uninformed view in an organized way is suspicious. Ergo the comparison to the Maga’s and anti-vaxxers. 🤦
Lots of suspicious comments in this thread. Seems like political astro-turfing has already arrived on Lemmy
We have a lot of pro empire shills here after the reddit migration.
They’re laughable. I’ve gotten like 30 replies to 1 comment and then they say “You seem mad” Yes…I’m the mad one. 🙄
You seem upset
your Jesus , you have to forgive them…
Here is an alternative Piped link(s): https://piped.video/watch?v=M4DkZ3CWFOk
Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
I’m open-source, check me out at GitHub.
Please calm down, I’m worried about your mental health please
deleted by creator
You are so far right that you call anything and everything to your left astroturfing. You’ve been in a bubble for so long that it’s a culture shock when you meet actual leftists.
Oh, yes. Actual leftists that somehow support every action of a particular nation. Actual leftists who don’t mind government control of information and gives incentives for supporting them publicly. Actual leftists that are ok with some people being removed from society because of the groups they belong to. Yep, totally sounds like actual leftists to me…
Yes, actual leftists. I’m going to quote to you some Marx. This is from Chapter 2 of the Communist Manifesto which is basically a 30 page pamphlet, I suggest you read it. I want you to pay particular attention to number 6.
As you can see, nothing here is at odds with that.
What groups? If you’re about to use Adrian Zenz as a source you are a joke. If you’re instead claiming that working to abolish the existence of the bourgeoisie is a bad thing you are a clown.
You didn’t just dunk him, you folded him into a ball and threw him into the sun
I don’t understand how people don’t understand that control of the means of communication in the hands of the proletariat is a MUST to create a DOTP. Who the fuck do they think owns the media? The proles? Fuck no, the bourgeoisie own the media. It’s ALL their media.
To empower the proletariat in the transitionary socialist state you MUST remove the advantages of the bourgeoisie. This is one of the biggest of them.
Ah but don’t you see that removing the knife from your throat before fighting The Caped Throatstabber makes you just as bad as him, because of human nature or something?
Must?
Also note this part:
Notice, “in the beginning.” Is China socialist or not? It is not the begining. The need to control the means of communication, as well as most of the rest of the goals, is to gain power over the bourgeoisie and place the power into the hands of the people. The means of communication must be seized in order to empower the people to communicate without their interference. How is the control that China has over communication providing for that and not the bourgeoisie itself controlling the media to prevent the people from communicating?
Socialism is the transitionary state between capitalism and communism. It exists in a state of warfare between the proletariat and the bourgeoisie.
We are very far away from defeating capitalism and such measures will remain in place until we have defeated it globally. What the fuck are you thinking? “Yes I want to give billionaires the ability to own media in my proletarian state so they can spew garbage propaganda until their counter-revolution succeeds”. Are you out of your mind? What exactly do you gain from this? Nothing. Absolutely nothing. All you are advocating for is empowering the bourgeoisie to crush and re-exploit you.
Ah, yes. China is definitely trying to defeat capitalism globally by opening and expanding special economic zones. If anything, China has become more capitalist (because it makes the current bourgeoisie who control the “communist” government more money). Xi Jinping seems to have an estimated value of at least $1 billion USD. He’s not of the working class. He’s from the political class.
—Lenin, Congress of the First Comintern
Yes, this is exactly what I said. The control needs to be taken away from the capitalist class who control it in most places. The goal after the bourgeoisie are removed from control is for the people to have control though, not some new bourgeoisie.
Some people should be removed from society based on the groups they belong to. Nazis, for example. Pedophiles, probably. And definitely people who put pineapple on pizza.
I was with you until the pineapple slander. It’s good on pizza folks, put it on there.
No, they should be removed from society based on what they want to do. I don’t think the children of nazis should be removed just because they’re a part of that group.
Ideological belief is not a trait that is automatically passed on to children. Children of Liberals aren’t automatically liberals. Children of conservatives aren’t automatically conservatives.
ck2 brain
edit: i mean 3 whatever
Yes, which is why they shouldn’t be removed for being a part of a group. They are a part of it as children though.
Do you share 100% of the ideological beliefs of your parents? Have you done so from birth?
No, but when I was a child I would still consider myself part of their social group. Children don’t have the autonomy for anything else.
The topic at hand is Western media drumming up support for the US’s next foreign policy disaster. The same way they did for Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya, Syria, Vietnam and so, so many others. I would have called this bullshit before I became a communist. You don’t need Marxist theory to see through the bullshit, just object permanence.
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China is not leftist
Yes it is. Your failure to understand China’s structure and its goals is a personal failure on your part to seek that information, the information is out there.
I recommend reading this article, from Vijay Prashad’s organisation the Tricontinental Institute. It will give you a good run down on China’s movement through stages of production and its current goals. If you want to argue Vijay Prashad and his organisation are not leftist you’ll have to take that up with Noam Chomsky as well since they work together on practically everything now.
If reading is too much for you (I suspect it is or you wouldn’t hold this opinion) then here is a very brief video by Professor Richard Wolff where he cites China as responsible for the globally rising interest in marxism.
If alternatively your position is that marxism is not leftist, you are a right wing clown and politically illiterate.
I am not near left or right, a 1 line axis is not enough to put all the political positions into account.
After reading the first link, socialism is kindof interesting at its core, but in china you have a person that controls eveything, China is a totalitarian state capitalist system. While Socialism would give people freedom, China is doing the opposite. I am not fully invested into this topic but you can’t tell me that stealing Money from bank accounts, allowing companies to do stupid investments that will become waste just to rise some numbers. Generally forbiding the fact that you have issues (disabled) or are different (religion or sexuality) is really just showing how similar this is to Hitlers time.
In Germany we have the Bundestag and its neither leftist or rightist as you elect the group you like which can be left-ist or right-ist, a group of multiple groups will be build for the few years that have together 50%. So if there is onr far-right group or far-left one, they won’t be able to actually do all the harm except people elect that group 50%.
Besides having every few years either same or slight different groups that regime, there is also the Grundgesetz which protect the Human rights at its core and is not changable except all 2 buildings and 1 person allow for this. With this, everthing should be possible while having freedom.
But for China I really don’t know what is the right thing. Its no different than America with capitalism at many levels because both intoxicate the human rights and nature environment. Somethinf like a Bundestag for China doesn’t seem like a great idea if it would be the main thing, because China wants to grow and the Bundestag is too slow for direct and instant changes. But without, you can see corruption at many corners in China.
So you are ignorant. Its ok we have all been there. To live is to learn. I would have an essay very similar to yours a couple years ago. Then I started doing some reading.
Essentially leftism v rightism boils down to either you think people all all equals and should be treated equally regardless or you believe some people are superior to others and should get to treat others as lesser. Its simple as that.
If you say something is simple, then you are actually ignorant, literally. Its like saying: “There are only white and black people, simple as that.”
Politics is way more complex and diverse, if you are only able to think in one direction then just don reply to me wtf.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_spectrum
You also said “Its ok” and included that “all” have been there but its only you and the bubble community you live in like you are some superior peace of ****
I didn’t say all of politics is simple. I said right vs Left is simple. Its an classification system made for the sole purpose of making a complex thing simple.
Its like you are getting hostile at me for saying “using google translate is simple” and saying “Translation is super hard. Learning a new language takes years and even then the subtleties of idioms and the nuance of culture play a significant role in how people speak. bridging the gap between two languages is super complex”
I’m sorry if my tone came off as condescending but is Understanding not superior to ignorance? Ignorance is a natural state. We naturally transition from ignorance into understanding on many subjects through out our lives. There is no shame in that. clinging to ignorance however is shameful. Realizing you are ignorant is the first step to understanding. The next step is finding more information. I was just trying to encourage you. No need to be so defensive.
The part that you see me ignorant is the problem. Just because I don’t believe in socialism or capitalism or left vs right doesn’t mean I am ignorant. You somehow had an exam about leftism and rightism which did not include more standpoints because your exam topic was just left vs right. It feels like you are literally stuck in this one knowledge and can’t accept other statements. Its also called Dunning Kruger effect.
You need to do a lot more reading if you believe this
I guess you missed the point that one person has the decision to control everything, of course there will be different groups controlling the details, but this is the person who is able to change. Just saying that I should read is pretty much stupid to say, you also just could say nothing, the message would be equal.
But i just gonna be you for a moment: If you do not believe this, you need to do a lot more reading.
Just send me your articles or whatever to justify whatever you mean and don’t be a dick.
Again, not true.
Sorry mister “trust me bro” I also love to say that you are again, not right.
Yeah because when all these “lefts” come from seemingly one instance (maybe two) they are totally not “living in a bubble” on their own.
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Expressing how you feel about China is fine. Calling someone else a “paranoid weirdo” is not. That’s just plain rude and disrespectful.
Edit: I feel like I should make it extra clear that I am not defending myself because several people think that I’m whining for myself. The one called a “paranoid weirdo” was not me.
Insisting that everyone who disagrees with you is a paid agent of spooky foreigners is being a paranoid weirdo. Not to mention, plain rude and disrespectful.
Bruh when did I ever say that anyone is a “paid foreigner”?
Did you even read the comment you replied to?
I did. But I just re-read that comment and apparently you were talking about the other guy who called the pro-China comments astroturfing. My bad.
Yes, exactly.
beeing disrespectfull to 1,3 billion people , no problem
Beeing DISRESPECTFULL TO ME ??? WHAT THE FUCK ? YOU THINK I AM ? CHINESE ?
What do you mean by “me”? I wasn’t even the one being disrespected. I was merely speaking out for someone else. BTW no one on this thread was ever disrespectful to the 1.3 billion Chinese people. They were disrespectful to their government.
me , thomas muntzer ,pastor 1489 – 1525 , you shouldnt be disrespectfull to me , i am not chinese , i am white ! dont forget your social conditioning , reddit would not approve of this behaviour…
Chinese Goverment you can Insult on Reddit , it approves of this Behaviour … whats you problem with it Tho… do you not approve of them bringing Wealth ,Progress and Development to the Chinese Nation ?
fix your grammar first
FTFY.
thanks
There’s 1.3 billion people in this thread who are supporting the PRC? There aren’t even 1.3 billion people in China supporting China. How is talking about all the nonsense in this thread being disrespectful to anyone, let alone 1.3 billion people?
Chauvinism? Wrong word choice. It’s chauvinism when you go around supporting one group from a position of prejudice, not when you attack some group, which wasn’t happening anyway. Questioning if something is happening organically isn’t the same as saying it’s bad. Skepticism is usually a virtue. Don’t accept everything you see and are told, and don’t accept that it’s happening by accident.
Treating the opinions of non-westerners as invalid is absolutely chauvinism.
lol try again
You are cherry picking.
The national government leaves the local government responsible for providing services, fucks them over, then convinces the people that it’s the local governments fault because they control the media. Of course they approve of the national government, though not the local at all so…
Also, a large part of the approval that this article states is because most of the people of China “are only a generation removed from an era of chronic food shortages and significant social and economic instability.” Its easy to improve people’s lives if they’re starting from a shitty position. We’ll see how that changes now that they’re playing in the big leagues.
When’s capitalism planning to do that for everyone in the global south then? If you remove china from the statistics on poverty alleviation poverty has been almost stagnant for the last 50 years. China is responsible for almost all of the vaunted “improvement” in poverty. And they’ve done it without bombing dozens of countries per decade!
So you were really going to tell someone they’re cherrypicking and quoting a survey that said only 11% of people were “very satisfied” and just hope no one looked through your wall of text, huh?
China just went through a period where in a single generation they eliminated more poverty than any other country in history (save the USSR). Why is it so hard for you to believe that children born subsistence farmers would have a positive view of their government when they’re middle classed and middle aged?
Wall of text? Why link an article if you aren’t going to read it? The wall of text was a quote from the article.
I literally included your reasoning in my comment. Why did you comment?
What I see is a lot of
You said there weren’t 1.3 billion people in China who supported the PRC. Harvard says you were wrong. We’re not talking about the minutiae of Chinese governance here, we’re talking about foreign policy.
PS: If you dig into the numbers (page 3 of the report, aka page 6 in the PDF), 70% of people are fairly or very satisfied with their township governments, so don’t be taken in by the Harvard cope–it really is bullshit.
I advise you to not waste your time arguing with these people. It’s a total waste of time. You can’t win an argument with stubborn people. Don’t be like me who wasted hours arguing with hexbear tankies. Just downvote them then go somewhere else on Lemmy.
I like how you admit that you were just trying to “win” an argument and closed to the idea of changing your mind at all from the outset.
I fixed it for you
oh no, someone was mean to me on the internet.
😔
Did you read the thread carefully? I wasn’t the one called a “paranoid weirdo”
I’m pointing out that
is dumb
😤
Unless you have investigated a problem, you will be deprived of the right to speak on it.
Isn’t that too harsh? Not in the least.
When you have not probed into a problem, into the present facts and its past history, and know nothing of its essentials, whatever you say about it will undoubtedly be nonsense.
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no more half measures walter
Why would anybody astroturf this shitty fucking website lmfao
They are watching, to think otherwise is foolish
Yea watching me post
who do you think the ppb emotes are really aimed at?
Clearly, we’ve graduated from shitty fucking to just shitty.
A specter haunts the Lemmyverse. The specter of differing opinions 😱😱😱
The specter of Hexbear
:
it’s just liberalism. it permeates the very air we breath.
Unlike Reddit, where the news pieces and opinions that are the most prominently featured are not influenced in any way, shape, or form by powerful institutions who want to push an agenda
Lots of these people were on lemmy long before you showed up. Maybe you’ve just been sheltered from the real posters of Lemmy.
The irony of someone whose baseline for opinion making was
leaving that place and feeling all of a sudden as if the discussion is being manipulated 
Unfortunately they’re probably real people. Most of Lemmy was full of tankies before the reddit migration so any post involving China or Russia brings them out in force.
lemmygrads leaking, i guess
It’s like porn to them
Well, I must admit that things are starting to get interesting in the comments section.
Don’t forget to collect your college credits on the way out!
Yes very interesting what things people will place in their anus
You mean the ones from hexbear aka lemmygrad-lite?
Excuse you, Lemmygrad is Hexbear-lite
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where’s “more tanky hexbear”?
It’s tomorrow’s Hexbear
Well, more like the kids meal version, but yeah
communists are able to see weak lies like these, shocking! WowWEEEEEEEEEEEEE
Possibly, I didn’t look where they’re all from, nor do I know what hexbear is or why it’s significant. Sounds like some kind of intra-Lemmy drama which I’m not too interested in. Just noticed a fair amount, lets say…not totally organic, seemingly agenda pushing comments.
Edit: Forget my previous comment. I now see the problem with Hexbear.
agenda pushing is when people have an opinion that doesn’t align with my own
No it’s when there’s mysteriously dozens of comments just magically showing up that are contrary to the vastly popular opinion on only one contentious issue, that serve the best interests of an entity with the time, resources to try to sway public opinion through fake grassroots posting. Also that entity has a fragile ego and a long history of online manipulation…oh and also coincidentally they are all coming from the same server
why would any foreign political entity waste its valuable english proficient resources on astroturfing an online backwater filled with politically illiterate nobodies? peak liberal solipsism
It would appear that way yes…and as mentioned, they have a history of having extremely thin skin and doing exactly that. So do I expect some group to do the exact thing they have always done? Yes. Yes I do.
And by “have a history of it” you mean "I’ve been told it so many times in the western echo chambers I hang out it that I just implicitly believe it.
Mate, you’ve already had it explained to you where we’re coming from, but apparently the idea of people who genuinely disagree with you is so fucking foreign to you that your redditor brain literally cannot process it, so you continue to descend into paranoid delusion.
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I would like to ask you to employ some critical thinking here. Setting aside that the people responding to you have much better English than even a pretty high-level English speaker coming from Mandarin, most of these accounts have months or years of post histories spent almost entirely talking to each other on their previously un-federated instance, including in some cases very harsh arguing, as well as talking about the US on a personal level with intimate detail (and/or whatever other country they say they are from). Do you really believe the most simple answer is that this is all kabuki theater by the CPC to astroturf an obscure collection of websites by wasting a ridiculous amount of resources and the time of highly English-fluent actors? vs just “some people think differently from you”?
If you concede this point, then I would like to ask you to just consider for a moment the implications of the fact that you took the much more absurd and flimsy explanation as though it was just the common-sense explanation. What does that say about the way that you conceptualize the world and what people believe?
In all fairness, a big part of my posting history is just reacting with emotes to shit. Maybe I am a bot?
Are you sure you’re not talking about another country?
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Again, learn what federation is, and while you’re at it, learn that racist white westerners like you are not actually “the vast popular opinion”. You’re just used to reddit, where disagreement is suppressed, so now that you’re in a space where genuine different opinion is allowed, you’re desperate into paranoia.
You’re the only one who has brought up race and are speculating what mine must be. I’m not the racist one in this conversation and I’m not the reddit-y one either. I’m not a refugee, I left that shitty site years ago bot.
I ❤ dehumanizing people with different opinions
Then you should know how federation works. And yes, believing that only the opinion of white westerners counts makes you racist as hell.
There are non-white people who don’t like China because of their aggression and obvious leanings towards imperialism. I’ve got friends and family all over Eastern Asia and their countries are constantly getting into territorial spats with China, including in Japan, the Philippines, and even communist Vietnam, not to Taiwan.
You guys just love China because they represent an alternative to the western US order. Maybe if they nationalized more industries, taxed their rich more, helped their workers with universal health care, and helped their oppressed neighbors instead of shooting at them and trying to take their territory, they would be more exciting to root for. Basically, if they were more like Cuba.
Silence, drone
I am a posting robot and I am hiding in your walls
maaaaybe we weren’t federated until this week. but nah, paid bots makes more sense.
The thick palpable fucking irony…
Vastly popular opinion held by whom?
Anyone with half a brain can see what’s going on. I’m not playing these silly obfuscation games. You’re bad at what you do.
Yes, anyone with half a brain can see that people from a leftist instance are contributing leftist opinions to a space they just federated with. What were you expecting?
From the largest lemmy instance before reddit did the thing. Weird, huh.
Least deranged response after being confronted with the existential horror that capitalism causes within us and being asked to cast it aside, choosing instead to bathe in the waters of the imperial core like the river of Styx, forgetting anything else exists, freeing oneself of responsibility for their fellow human, untethered by compassion and hope for the future
Your chauvinism is showing brah
Yes, anybody with half a brain can see that you have paranoid delusions.
you seem mad, what’s the issue?
Insult that has no tether to the topic at hand, inline with your other comments that just make vague allusions that could be applied to any topic. Found the bot.
if I had 1/8th a brain I could think like you
my brain is medically broken right now and even I can see that you’re a paranoid weirdo.
lol, so your issue is that people with similar opinions happen to be on the same server? truly the most obvious evidence of agenda pushing!
I love how liberals think anybody who’s outside of their echo chamber must be a paid shill. It’s absolutely inconceivable to them that there is a significant amount of people who have contrary opinions.
:sad-in-the-corner:
Damn wish my fragile ego could manipulate you into not being such a flaming
I don’t know if the server you are talking about is hexbear, but they recently federated and are one of the oldest lemmy instances. Lemmygrad also has been existing a long time before lemmy became as popular as it is today.
hmmm
hmmmm
hmmmmmm
we federated , so now the stupid Imperialsit lies show up in Hexbear , they obviously can not stay , whats you proplem with beeing Corrected ? Do you want to live in Lies Mr. Jesus ? Because you can not be Bothered to do a ideum of research before running wild with the Mob Mr. Jesus ? , you want to forbide our ?
You sound very Priveldged , trying to impose your ignorance on others , whos your Dad ?
dO yOur OwN rEseArcH
You sound just like every other idiot that says that. Trumpers, anti-vaxxers and the like. If you have to look around for yOur Own rEsEaRcH that lines up with what you want it to say, it’s because it’s not based in facts. You guys seem to honestly think you sound smart…smh
also like every other Iraq war Opponents , Vietnam war opponents, Imperialism Opponents ,Julian Assage loyalist etc… dont forget them !
Do you accept “Dissent” at all ? and are you Capable of Processing new information ?
this is REALLY Taiwans Air identification Zone . it is NOT the Taiwanese Airspace , this is a Factuall basis. Please Just Process this new Information , the Article is really missleading , the babycrying will stop after a while , trust me . You are really wrong and most people can comprehend that after a while.
lol
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Hexbear is a large, leftist instance, that just recently federated, and most of us are pro-China. We’re not bots and we’re not getting paid, but we’re not shy about our political views. That’s the reason you’re suddenly seeing a bunch more comments defending China.
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You guys have been getting paid!? The whole time??
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Plz tell Xi I have not received my payments this month I need it for buying Estrogen please Xi
What the fuck did you expect? Lemmy has a Marxist Leninist developer named Dessalines. If you want, critique his ass for letting this happen…
I made an account with lemmy.world and I don’t see them anymore.
Bout to do the same
You won’t be missed
(when there are political views i disagree with) hmm, seems like theres some astroturfing going on
I know right! How come there are so, so many people defending China here? I thought they were the minority. Ugh. When I was back on Reddit comments like those would always be downvoted to hell.
If you can’t cope with people with different political beliefs to you being allowed to post, maybe you should go back to reddit.
I’m fine with people with different opinions than my own posting. It’s just the number of such people surprises me.
ps. I will not go back to reddit
No you just brought the
with you
You had it explained where they came from, and just ignored it so you could continue with your paranoid conspiracy theory.
Why not go back to reddit? You’ll like it there, they also have the extreme solipsism to think anyone who disagrees with them is a paid foreigner
I don’t even have a theory.
Clearly
I never had a “paranoid conspiracy theory” to begin with.
Alright, it just really seemed like you were agreeing with the ‘paid Chinese bots’ guy.
It’s a shock to find out that the world view instilled in you as common and sensical is neither.
It’s tough to face up to that conditioning, but you can do it if you try, and if you don’t take it personally. It’s not your fault you were filled with imperialist lies, but it will be your fault if you don’t reflect
It might be worth keeping in mind that Reddit has, for several years now, biased its moderation policy against the sort of voices who would object to OP, creating a neoliberal echochamber across most of the website.
you left a Astro Turfed , hardcore censored Faschist Imperialistic Place that spends its time telling you US lies about its enemies … things are Diffrent when you leave your hole , because You changed location , you now meet “non Rediitors” and Communist and all else thats forbidden on Reddit… , thereby you are Accuring an new Perspective …
If its Scary for you then you need to run back where you came from … where the Yellow Peril rules …
The issue is there are a much higher percentage here because brigading wasn’t allowed on reddit so they’d be banned for this type of activity. They come here and can do what they want, which is fine as long as it doesn’t hurt other people doing what they want, which in this case is arguably happening because it clutters the comments with the same thing repeated over and over, and they are organized so it’s all up voted. This doesn’t make them the majority opinion though. It makes them the organized opinion. They are not the majority by any means, but they will make sure to come to China’s defence whenever it’s mentioned, where others won’t bother.
Brigading was very much allowed on Reddit as long as it didn’t push the neoliberal imperialist status quo. Since the biggest leftist subs were banned or quarantined the shitheap of a website has seen an unceasing drumbeat of “China bad” and Cold War 2.0 propaganda, with any dissenting opinion piled on and follows across subs and threads. Often for weeks.
It was explicitly not allowed. You can argue about enforcement if you want, but it wasn’t allowed.
Rules only exist to the extent they are enforced. Words aren’t magical. Only the directed use of power gives rules reality, everything else is just so much pablum.
federating
Brigading is when you organize to send people to a specific post/comment.
Federating is different groups organizing together to share functionality.
They are not the same thing and federation has nothing to do with what is being discussed.
this thread is at the top of active. no one needs to organize anything for lots of people from hexbear to see it.
lying is when you make things up on the internet. show some evidence for this claim.
Are you acting dumb on purpose?
Honey the only organization that’s bringing us here is sort by activity
Lol, just making shit up now.
Yeah! It’s kind of sketchy how most hexbear.net comments here have >10 upvotes
edit: it’s also sketchy that over 95% of comments on this post are from hexbear.net, while on the average Lemmy post (not on lemmy.world) there would only be less than 20%
It’s actually quite easy to achieve, simply have better opinions
Its on account of those being the only good posts.
Our instance makes us literally incapable of downvoting you and yet look what we’ve achieved
Edit your username to have pronouns if you want us to upvote you
no
It may be hard to fathom for someone who’s so used to Reddit, but Hexbear users really do have a deep love for each other. Also we are really really ridiculously online.
This is kind of analogous to the “CCP is falsifying all of its own data” allegation. You can cling to some sort of dogmatic narrative like Hexbear inflating its stats à la r/the_donald, that’s exceedingly difficult to prove or draw anything conclusive from, or you can take a close look at it and see the reality that lines up with the stats.
I think it’s going to be up to the users to run them out.
I was curious what you were talking about as there are only 10 comments through Beehaw so I checked out the original. It’s overwhelmingly coming from hexbear.net which we’ve defederated from.
There’s a good number coming from Lemmygrad as well.
…which we are also defederated from.
So glad I chose this instance.
Got into an argument last week with somebody from Hexbear. Good to see the tankie trash being taken out.
Yea, it feels like 4chan suddenly saw the light and then turned far-left all at once. They act like what the far right imagines the left to be like, but just looks like really bad anti-leftist propaganda, or they’re just tankies :/ some hexbears are ok, though, but most here are just discrediting themselves by throwing the propaganda handbook at the passersby.
We keep throwing books at you because we desperately wish you’d read.
nah, I got better books than yours to read, go preach your sermon to another parish.
Least anti-intellectual shitlib.
There are some cool Socialists worth learning from, but you are not one of them, with that language, bye.
“Cool socialists” here meaning YouTube streamers I assume.
Then persist in ignorance and wander blind upon this fading world.
Good, they should be terrified.
No, it is not good, it’s sabotage, it feels like the lefty version of r/The_Donald. Supposed leftists bragging about “dunking on shitlibs” lol
Then maybe the shitlibs shouldn’t be so dunkable.
This isn’t debate club nerd. Nobody is required to be nice to you. We can both offer well intentioned arguements, and also engage in the simple pleasure of calling people dipshits.
“Im not owned! Im not owned! I shriek as I shrink and slowly turn into a corncob”
Ok when the word “shitlib” is used here we’re referring to smug, rude, arrogant, reddit-brained imbeciles who functionally support imperialism, right wing apologia, and casual bigotry. They also operate in bad faith from the get go.
Uneducated progressive “liberals” who are nonetheless openminded and empathetic are not the people who this term refers to.
This still feels a little
But I’ll take it, I’m certainly not an expert on Marxism. It’s a useful method of inquiry oftentimes, but there are other worthy worldviews and subjects to spend time on that hardly make me uneducated.
I wasn’t referring to you in particular, I was referring to describing types of “liberals” in general. I am not implying that there is something inherently wrong with being uneducated. Everybody is uneducated in a variety of fields outside of their own expertise, such as nuclear physics, foraging, farming, etc. Similarly, most american progressives simply do not know what the terms “left” and “right” mean in a political context, therefore, they are uneducated. Rather, I was implying that these progressives are well meaning, good-hearted people who just need a bit more knowledge as to where they could direct their energy towards political change. I apologize if it came off as condescending, maybe I should have used the term “unactivated” or “new to politics”.
Thats good, keep reading. If you are interested in politics then I would recommend reading the works of Micheal Parenti.
Yeah, mostly agree, people are kept from thinking and complaining too much by being overworked, stressed, distracted, manipulated, demotivated, denied access, captured by cults, etc :/ sooo … fuck IP law and let’s get pirating, books ain’t gonna read themselves :D
Exactly this. They’re running around spewing barely-sensical insults acting like they’re dunking on people, but all their really doing is turning off anyone who was ever possibly sympathetic to their cause. And are completely un-informed on top of that
Are we uninformed or in the pay of sinister Anti-American forces?
Easy one. You’re uninformed
So why are the comments suspicious
Is being uninformed suspicious?
Yes. You’re starting to get it. Being willfully uninformed and forcefully pushing that uninformed view in an organized way is suspicious. Ergo the comparison to the Maga’s and anti-vaxxers. 🤦
you initially confused the words “un-informed” and “dishonest”. Most literate liberal
I see, that explains all the drooling liberals like yourself ITT. HOW MUCH IS WASHINGTON PAYING YOU TO PRETEND TO BE A
Forcefully pushing our views by uhhhhbhhhh… Shitposting.
Political power grows out of the barrel of cumposting.
political power grows out of the asshole of a pig, then falls onto its testicles.
uninformed about what?
China is the high-water mark of human governance!!