While Roman society was MUCH more sexist than anything we would regard as acceptable in modern society, women had many rights at the height of the Roman Empire that later European societies would not keep. The right of women to own property was so strict that gifts from a wife to a husband were not legally recognized - if they divorced, claims that any property of the wife was a gift to her husband would not be recognized, and would be returned to the newly-divorced wife. Women often held significant amounts of property and ran businesses in their own name, and there is ample evidence for women as independent workers in skilled and semiskilled professions.
There is considerable writing at the time discussing the role of women in society, and while the opinions of Roman men are very far from ‘enlightened’, they also quite clearly regard women as more than breeding stock. The Roman author Musonius Rufus even advocated for women to be trained in the arts of war, and posited than any job a man could do, a woman could do also.
Women could divorce their husbands without need for any deeper cause beyond “I don’t want to stay in this marriage anymore”, and domestic abuse within marriage was grounds for civil lawsuits. All rape of freeborn persons (within the context of Roman governance; foreigners being conquered were less lucky) was subject to the death penalty. Bloodline descent (‘breeding stock’) was considered much less important, as Romans placed a higher value on a cultural/loyalty familial system in which adoption was widely accepted and direct descent was less important (though not nil) to being recognized as part of the descendants of the family. The idea of ‘securing the throne’ was not really applicable until later in Roman society when the norms of the city of Rome began to be eroded in favor of a more ‘cosmopolitan’ and universal imperial culture.
in the mean time i checked which emperor i was thinking of, and apparently i was thinking of about 150 years later, when christianity began to take root there. which apparently is attributed to constantine, but actually it was the guy before him who stopped persecuting christians.
perhaps rome at aurelius’ time was a wee bit more moderate, but i would not expect that to stay true farther away from the capital.
thank you for your time writing all this, it was very interesting.
perhaps i can interest you in the book that triggered my response in the first place?
it tries to shine a light on what happened to drive men away from women, i.e. how the patriarchy came to be (probably)
the english title is “the good book of human nature” … the mind boggles as to why the author shies away from just calling it “the truth about eva” which would be the direct translation from german, i can only assume it’s to not cause to big an upheaval among religious folks…
perhaps rome at aurelius’ time was a wee bit more moderate, but i would not expect that to stay true farther away from the capital.
There were actually drastic changes between Constantine and Marcus Aurelius. The Empire effectively fell apart in the 3rd century AD, and was cobbled back together by warlords. By the time of Constantine, between changing norms and the weakening of Rome’s (and Italy’s) position as central to the Empire led to Constantine being able to push through changes like turning “Death penalty for anyone raping a freeborn person” to “Any woman who is raped is put to death if she doesn’t scream loud enough” (itself a violation of one of the oldest norms of Roman society regarding rape which dates back to the founding of the Republic). Christian values!
The provinces of the 1st and 2nd century AD were still heavily influenced by traditional Roman values, especially in the Western half of the Empire. And some of those provinces were more female-friendly than Roman traditions were. We have evidence of Roman businesswomen acting in their own names as far east as Syria and as far west as Britain.
thank you for your time writing all this, it was very interesting.
Anytime! Rome is a personal obsession of mine, lol.
perhaps i can interest you in the book that triggered my response in the first place? it tries to shine a light on what happened to drive men away from women, i.e. how the patriarchy came to be (probably) the english title is “the good book of human nature” … the mind boggles as to why the author shies away from just calling it “the truth about eva” which would be the direct translation from german, i can only assume it’s to not cause to big an upheaval among religious folks…
I’ve not heard of that book in particular, but I’ve read numerous articles in academic journals about how patriarchy arose in various societies. Ugly stuff.
cant remember what this book said about pre constantine, as it was mostly concerned with how the patriarchy developed beginning about 8000years ago, so nonsurviving cultures arent that interesting, except to highlight that indeed we could have been equal all along, if not for the rise of monotheism and then christianity.
the book also highlights how the teachings of jesus were perverted by the church to suppress women from having a say in anything. not only that, it also changed how i see this no-nut bullshit. i used to see it as a silly practice some silly men would do. but now i see it as the continuation of demonizing sexuality. (granted, if you got a problem then you got a problem, but the solutionis to go seek help, not to maim a beautiful woman, thinking she’s a demon (as was pretty common in the past, thanks to christianity))
and how religion is basically just politics moved into the clouds, and how monotheism fueled tyrants…
it is funny how it was all basically already there, in stories and films, but seeing it all connected hits hard
what
a man talking about how men should behave in a society that only had room for women as breeding stock and only if they secured your throne.
While Roman society was MUCH more sexist than anything we would regard as acceptable in modern society, women had many rights at the height of the Roman Empire that later European societies would not keep. The right of women to own property was so strict that gifts from a wife to a husband were not legally recognized - if they divorced, claims that any property of the wife was a gift to her husband would not be recognized, and would be returned to the newly-divorced wife. Women often held significant amounts of property and ran businesses in their own name, and there is ample evidence for women as independent workers in skilled and semiskilled professions.
There is considerable writing at the time discussing the role of women in society, and while the opinions of Roman men are very far from ‘enlightened’, they also quite clearly regard women as more than breeding stock. The Roman author Musonius Rufus even advocated for women to be trained in the arts of war, and posited than any job a man could do, a woman could do also.
Women could divorce their husbands without need for any deeper cause beyond “I don’t want to stay in this marriage anymore”, and domestic abuse within marriage was grounds for civil lawsuits. All rape of freeborn persons (within the context of Roman governance; foreigners being conquered were less lucky) was subject to the death penalty. Bloodline descent (‘breeding stock’) was considered much less important, as Romans placed a higher value on a cultural/loyalty familial system in which adoption was widely accepted and direct descent was less important (though not nil) to being recognized as part of the descendants of the family. The idea of ‘securing the throne’ was not really applicable until later in Roman society when the norms of the city of Rome began to be eroded in favor of a more ‘cosmopolitan’ and universal imperial culture.
/Romaboo moment over
in the mean time i checked which emperor i was thinking of, and apparently i was thinking of about 150 years later, when christianity began to take root there. which apparently is attributed to constantine, but actually it was the guy before him who stopped persecuting christians.
perhaps rome at aurelius’ time was a wee bit more moderate, but i would not expect that to stay true farther away from the capital.
thank you for your time writing all this, it was very interesting.
perhaps i can interest you in the book that triggered my response in the first place? it tries to shine a light on what happened to drive men away from women, i.e. how the patriarchy came to be (probably) the english title is “the good book of human nature” … the mind boggles as to why the author shies away from just calling it “the truth about eva” which would be the direct translation from german, i can only assume it’s to not cause to big an upheaval among religious folks…
There were actually drastic changes between Constantine and Marcus Aurelius. The Empire effectively fell apart in the 3rd century AD, and was cobbled back together by warlords. By the time of Constantine, between changing norms and the weakening of Rome’s (and Italy’s) position as central to the Empire led to Constantine being able to push through changes like turning “Death penalty for anyone raping a freeborn person” to “Any woman who is raped is put to death if she doesn’t scream loud enough” (itself a violation of one of the oldest norms of Roman society regarding rape which dates back to the founding of the Republic). Christian values!
The provinces of the 1st and 2nd century AD were still heavily influenced by traditional Roman values, especially in the Western half of the Empire. And some of those provinces were more female-friendly than Roman traditions were. We have evidence of Roman businesswomen acting in their own names as far east as Syria and as far west as Britain.
Anytime! Rome is a personal obsession of mine, lol.
I’ve not heard of that book in particular, but I’ve read numerous articles in academic journals about how patriarchy arose in various societies. Ugly stuff.
cant remember what this book said about pre constantine, as it was mostly concerned with how the patriarchy developed beginning about 8000years ago, so nonsurviving cultures arent that interesting, except to highlight that indeed we could have been equal all along, if not for the rise of monotheism and then christianity.
the book also highlights how the teachings of jesus were perverted by the church to suppress women from having a say in anything. not only that, it also changed how i see this no-nut bullshit. i used to see it as a silly practice some silly men would do. but now i see it as the continuation of demonizing sexuality. (granted, if you got a problem then you got a problem, but the solutionis to go seek help, not to maim a beautiful woman, thinking she’s a demon (as was pretty common in the past, thanks to christianity)) and how religion is basically just politics moved into the clouds, and how monotheism fueled tyrants…
it is funny how it was all basically already there, in stories and films, but seeing it all connected hits hard