- cross-posted to:
- technology@lemmy.ml
- cross-posted to:
- technology@lemmy.ml
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Please don’t give kids smartphones period. A smart watch is far less addictive and just as valuable to parents and kids (parents can track location, kids can still make phone calls and txt.) other suggestions are a dumb phone (think t9 txting), or just let them go phoneless.
I don’t think going phoneless would be a great idea because emergencies happen and people need to communicate but society would probably be better if kids weren’t glued to smartphone apps and social media from a young age. The smart watch or dumb phone idea makes sense to me though.
The emergency argument can be managed by not giving kids a smart phone with internet aceess. Easy
Those watches with tracking built in are certainly popular in my area, but I absolutely refuse to use it. Kidnapping just isn’t a thing (the majority of kidnappings is by a trusted family member/friend), and I don’t think kids should get accustomed to someone constantly looking over their shoulder. I’ve gotten my kids “smart” watches (fun Minecraft watches with built-in games and whatnot), and there’s no tracking or internet access whatsoever.
If kids need to call, they can ask a trusted adult to borrow a phone. If I trust my kid, they can borrow my spare. Kids don’t need a phone of their own until they can at least get around on their own (e.g. driver’s license or parental permission to leave the neighborhood on their own), and for me, that’s like 14yo. I have a 10yo, and there’s no way I’m giving them a phone now or in the next year. They’re really responsible, but they don’t need it at all.
Curious, what smart(-ish) watches did you get? Product recommendations appropriate in this discussion imho
This Minecraft watch. There’s no network access whatsoever, but it feels like a smart watch with a camera, apps, games, etc. They really liked it, but it seems to not be very durable, and battery life is pretty poor (like a day or so). But if your kids want to feel like having a smart watch, but you don’t want to have all of the internet access stuff, I think it’s pretty good.
Don’t they require smart phones to work though? All the ones I have had are all just BT devices which require a phone to do anything beyond tell the time
There are several cellular capable watches.
My Samsung watch works without a phone on Google Fi network. Watches get a free line.
On Google Fi the watch data “piggy backs” on the phone’s data. You still need a phone + phone plan.
Anyone have a recommendation for a decent kids smartwatch with cell service? I got my son a Garmin Bounce and the text and the service sucked so we returned it.
You can find older Apple Watches for fairly cheap, I paid 10 bucks a month on T-Mobile for just the watch plan.
You would need to have an iPhone in order to manage it but you can manage a watch for a kid that way. They have school mode for them so it just acts as a watch with emergency contact action at school.
Scrolling to find out what “EE” is… I can’t find anything. Can someone fill me in?
EE (formerly Everything Everywhere) is a British mobile network operator, internet service provider and a brand of BT Consumer, a division of BT Group. Supposedly the #1 network in the UK similar to Verizon in the US.
A telecom company with the hubris and arrogance to call themselves “Everything Everywhere”.
Electronics Enonymous.
Electrical Engineers.
I will argue smartphones or any electronic is not the problem. The problem is lazy parents.
My kids all have had phones since before 10 and they’re all well adjusted but to be clear I monitor their usage and I check in with my kids regularly.
I cannot hold back society or technology at the fear of my kids being left behind. What I can do is help them navigate both as they grow.
I love how quick we are to lay the blame anywhere but parents.
I strongly believe that a large part of the reason China is so strict with underage phone and game restrictions is because the parents are at work for too long to do any real parenting. Ideally parents should be the ones making those choices and actually monitoring their kids, but since I don’t have kids I can’t really say for myself.
the parents are at work for too long to do any real parenting
This 100%.
I’m always sus of anything the Chinese government does. I feel that governments restricting Internet usage is just a way to indoctrinate people with the media you (the state) shows them instead.
The problem here is that the systems you have to monitor usage aren’t great, and kids are known for lying or omitting details to their parents.
Giving kids open-ended access to technology doesn’t have to involve giving them access to the Internet without constant guidance. I would rather my kid have less digital access than their peers, than get sexually exploited because they were a child publicly online.
More and more I am seeing that the places kids go online are places I don’t fully understand, but a cursory review reveals is also a hotspot for sexual predators. This seems like the perfect place for a predator to stalk my child. I don’t know enough to stop them, and my kid doesn’t know enough not to get exploited. By the time I find out about it, it’ll probably be too late.
Giving a child an internet-connected camera and screen can become such a horrific nightmare, I think that good parenting actually has to involve being realistic and telling your kids “just because your friends have TikTok and Instagram doesn’t mean you won’t get grounded for it in this house”, and letting kids use technology when I am in the room with them. I have seen what kids are posting online, and it’s easy to assume that their parents don’t care, but it’s a lot more realistic to accept that kids are good at keeping secrets, and their parents don’t know what they’re up to.
If they want to learn about computers on their own, I’ll buy them what they need to learn about all sorts of stuff that doesn’t expose them directly to capitalist or sexual exploitation online. When they are old enough to defend themselves, then they can be given the trust in accessing the Internet on their own, but until then they need to explore under my watchful eye.
Giving a smartphone to a <10 year old child, and trusting that the limited monitoring tools available, and your child’s honesty is enough to keep them safe from vicious exploitation is delusional and irresponsible.
This is an extremely reactionary take. I hear what you are saying but I draw the line as delusional and irresponsible unless you apply that to pretty much all parents that don’t completely smother their children.
We make mistakes as we grow. We lie. We get hurt. Technology is always Pandora’s box. I’d argue we have better knowledge of our kids now than we ever used to and stats show the world is safer now than it has ever been.
If you live in fear you will form your decisions from a place of fear.
This is an extremely reactionary take.
How the fuck is this Reactionary?
I recognize a threat and I want to avoid my child being exploited.
At one point in history, the car was a new form of technology growing in popularity, and we eventually agreed that kids shouldn’t drive.
Ah yes. A phone is a car. Got it.
Also, who tf is exploiting kids because they have a phone? Do you also remove all TVs from your house? What about the radio? Can’t have Lady Gaga singing about “poke her face” to my kids! Lol
This is actually a good take. Kids aren’t miniature adults, they’re kids. They’re not helpless or useless, but neither are they fully morally and emotionally developed. They need guidance. Plenty of adults can’t responsibly handle internet access. I survived early onilne porn and gore and social media, but it’s not like any of it benefited me in a meaningful way.
Some folks have an attitude that’s like “I touched hot stoves and I learned better”, but that’s far from ideal.
Get the kids a dumb phone instead. Calls and texts are more than enough in an emergency
When I went to price it out at the store, the line for a dumb phone was going to cost $30/mo more than a smart phone. It was dumb.
I’m in the US and can get a simple plan for $6/month for no data, 300 minutes, and unlimited texting. Unlimited minutes is $8. There’s no contract, so this isn’t some kind of family deal, this is just the regular price at Tello for a single line.
I personally have 1GB and 300 min for $7/month.
If the new dumb phones also came with Google Family Link for tracking then it would be a win. But they don’t. As a parent, having the ability to track my kids when I know they’re heading to or from somewhere is a big deal. And no, it’s not an issue of trust.
Give them a phone with no play store or browser. If they get apks over mms or adb I think they’ve earned them
I’d argue that is still an issue of trust, but maybe more concerning society / the local neighborhood.
My kids are around that age and it’s a real struggle when all of their friends have one.
There is a growing tide of data suggesting the fight is worth it, but understand it is a serious struggle.
Much like trying to get kids to eat healthy when they are surrounded by so much awful food in the US.
Is it the phone, or the social media? The article only really mentions social media as the real issue.
Subsequently, does that mean social media on a computer is 100% A-OK? (this is a mobile phone carrier so it makes sense that they’d only focus on phones)
Both.
You definitely see a difference in children who are regularly given phones to keep them occupied. They’re just so much more hyper active. I know a lot of teachers have been complaining about phone use in the classrooms. In Canada they just started rolling back against rules saying teachers can’t confiscate phones.
In my opinion, social media is a bigger problem than smartphones in general. For me a smartphone is a just a tool that can be both incredibly useful but also very harmful.
With a bit of knowhow, you can neuter a smartphone so kids can’t access social media, games, and other distracting mediums. No social media apps, no browser access, no YouTube, no games. But they can still access useful functions like calculators, the torch, phone calls and messages, etc. Android and iOS both have features allowing parents to do this.
I think that this is somewhat besides the point. Give a smartphone to a teenager, and block all social media, and one of two things is going to happen:
- They don’t use the phone, because the only reason they wanted it was social media.
- They find a way around your social media block, because the only reason they wanted it was social media.
What age is a good age to give them one?
When they need one. And no, that’s not when they say they need one, but when you decide they need one.
I’m planning on having a loaner phone when my kids are teenagers that they can share. It’ll stay home unless they leave the house, and they’ll be limited to how much time they can spend on it. If they earn my trust, maybe they’ll get their own (again, subject to limitations). I don’t see a reason why they’d need one before they can drive, but I’ll play it by ear.
That said, I refuse to do any sort of tracking on their devices. If I trust them with a phone, I’ll respect their privacy with it. If they violate my trust, they lose the phone. If they don’t like it, they’re free to get their own once they’re 18, and not a day before.
Yikes.
Yeah, yikes for being a parent that wants to teach their kids prudence. While they’re living in my home, a phone is a privilege, not a right, and they need to prove they can be trusted with it. If they break that trust, they lose the phone.
I’m not giving them a phone because their friends have phones, I’m giving them a phone because I trust them with it and there’s a reasonable reason for them to have it. I don’t need to know where my child is 24/7, I just need to know that they’ll be home at a given time and not break our rules when I’m not around, and I need trust for that to happen, not a tracking device.
As a 17 year old who has 3 phones (somewhat strange story behind it), giving a child a phone should be either when they need it, such as when they go out more often or other events where they need a specific use, but if not, I believe 18 to 20 is not a bad age to receive one, since young adults are more likely to need to travel to schooling such as UNI more often and generally need more info about travel routes and to be able to message parents/siblings/etc.
As for my 3 phones, one is a galaxy S4 my dad gave me as a hand-me-down, pretty much used to text my parents exclusively, then I received an oppo Reno z from a friend who didn’t need it, which I currently use as a games and social media phone, then the third is one is a galaxy a20 my dad brought home and said I could take if I wanted, since there were a few of those unused at his workplace, so I now just use that as a flashlight.
You can’t exist in this world without a phone anymore.
Any meaningful school relationship builds on things like messaging groups.
Just because we could do it in the early 2000s doesnt mean it’s applicable today.This would today socially cripple a student.
I guess it lands differently in other parts of the world and is more nuanced than I previously anticipated, since, where I live we are quite agnostic between devices to message with, some use phones, some use tablets, some use laptops, and it goes on. As for my friend group, none of us communicated using phones until mid 2022, two years into our friendships.
Since we all moved to our senior campus, we are just now emphasising smartphones as a daily method of communication, compared to our previous default, laptops and desktops, but we normally use the same apps/sites we used to, specifically discord and Instagram.
Again, I believe it depends on the area, maybe in other parts they use phones much more often compared to us, or some may never use phones at all.
Oh certainly!
I would say my take would more or less apply to most of west Europe and north America and maybe some parts of heavily urbanized parts of Asia. But that is only guessing.
My location is in Germany so take that information for what it is :)I definitely agree, though I’d also add the Australia/New Zealand region as well, since we are also reasonably heavy users of phones too. Also I’m from Victoria, Australia by the way, it’s pretty fascinating how diverse the internet is :)
IMO 16, if you can trust them to be responsible enough to drive you can trust them to have a smartphone. If you can’t trust them to drive then yeah they probably shouldn’t have a smartphone lol
I’d say 13-14 under tighter supervision but 15 is the range where they will be made fun of for heli parents.
And they will quickly find a way around it like resetting the whole phone if nothing else.
I feel like I had a problem socially starting jr high without a phone at all in late 00s. All your friends communicate/plan/etc over phones so not having one you’re missing out on all of that.
Smartphone is debatable, but I feel like 6/7th grade kinda needs a phone of some sort in current society
Just don’t do it people. Me and so many parents have horror stories. Even without social media these phone numbers get out one way or another. For us it was much more trouble than it was worth.
I haven’t had a problem.
iPhone with Screen time and communication limits means I can control how much time they spend in the device and in which apps and I control who they can contact.
Don’t approve any apps that allow social features.
Talk to them about the realities of the internet and the wider world.
All of this has to happen at some point. If you just hand off a phone to an 11 year old or even a 14 year old workout doing any of the above, you’re still going to have issues.
Much of what is being said about tech is the same as was said about tv and video games. The only studies you’re going to hear about this are the ones that confirm the societal biases.
If you don’t seek counter opinions of this topic you’re playing into the same fear mongering every generation of parents has had about the new thing.
Dancing, rock and roll, tv, video games, and now phones. Every time, everyone thinks this time is different and every time it hasn’t been.
Dancing, rock and roll, tv, video games, and now phones. Every time, everyone thinks this time is different and every time it hasn’t been.
- Dancing (with other children at dances)
- Rock and Roll (just listening to it)
- TV (just watching it, and maybe seeing objectionable content)
- Video Games (Addiction / Inappropriate content)
- Internet-connected camera-equipped smartphones (Direct access to scammers, bullies, and child pornographers)
One of these things is not like the other.
No, you don’t get. Or didn’t live it. Or are being purposely obtuse.
None of those qualifiers were attached to those things at the time the applicable fear mongering luddites were vilifying them. What we have right now are 21st century Tipper Gores. People engaging in moral public freakouts over tangentially related things which affirm a much larger fear of the whole (technology in this case). You see it also with how people violently and emotionally react to “AI.”
Remember when D&D would turn you into a Satanist who’d go on to sexually abused children, maybe even engage in ritualist murder? Remember when similar was said for merely listening to even the radio edits of Marilyn Manson?
People pearl clutch over hypotheticals. Parents who engage with their kids and set healthy boundaries which are enforced don’t often run into these problems. Hell, the arguments people make about tech right now could also apply as reasons not to let them play outside. Never know where a predator is lurking. I mean, we actually do: in your church and in your house. The two most statistically likely places for children to be preyed upon.
But let’s blame the internet. Apple makes it trivial to lock things down and monitor it all. No kid is able to outsmsrt those restrictions because adults can’t either.
No, what’s happening is yet another hype cycle. The entire reason all these schools are banning devices this year is due to a marketing effort from Haidt’s publisher. They put copies of his book into the hands of higher ranking faculty with purchasing authority for their districts. And they talk with each other. What a brilliant way to weaponize ignorance and make a buck doing so.
And it magically doesn’t make bad parents into even mediocre ones. Who or what will they blame next? Definitely not the person looking back at them in the mirror every morning.
Don’t give them a phone until they are prepared to see everything the Internet has. Kids can be smart and will find ways around the blocks you put in place.
The thing I tell people is that as a parent, you are going to put maybe a few hours into blocking them from getting to stuff. They are then going to spend as much time as they want trying to get through it. You can dig through concrete with a spoon if you’re patient enough.
Educate them, and give them access when they’re responsible enough
That’s the real problem, kids being able to spend unlimited time unsupervised because they have horrible absent parents. Parents shouldnt let their kids have unrestricted time like that. That is one reason why kids suffer in school not because of phones; because their parents aren’t involved to guide them in making good choices and forcing good habits.
So we take away the phones as the luddites demand. What fills the gap? Definitely not independent learning. Most definitely not suddenly mindful and present parents.
There is a lot of fear mongering and blaming, but no actual effort to fix it. Banning or removing doesn’t fix it. There is a reason that, when absent parents for latchkey kids were huge problems, they didn’t simply decree gangs illegal and pat themselves on the back. Communities offered alternatives. But no alternative is being offered here. All the woes are shifted onto the unholy smartphone and internet.
Ya know why predators can find success online? Because shit parents don’t parent. A better use of resources would be forcing the parents to sacrifice their phones contingent on spending time with their kids, right?
They are probably smart enough to find a phone if they want one…
Smartphones cost enough that a parent can control the finances and I don’t believe kids can aquire a large enough fund by themselve without at least some assistance by the parents.
And if, usually as a gift and that is probably taken in by a parent anywayYou can buy an Android Tracphone on Amazon for $25: https://a.co/d/5Xb3DqX
You can buy an unlocked Android phone for $44: https://a.co/d/0hTu3Me
On Amazon you either need to buy gift cards or have a working bank account/credit card.
If your kid works around those road blocks you have more serious problems…
And btw: Are they really usable?They sell these same cheap phones at the store, and yeah, they work fine. I assume you live way out in the suburbs somewhere where it is unheard of that a young teen might end up at a store with dozens of dollars in their pocket, but I’m being realistic. You have to be vigilant about what your kids are up to.
In many ways, I am more comfortable with my kid going to the store on their own than I am of them using TikTok, given what I know about TikTok.
If you call the outer rim of the main city “way out in the suburbs”… Sure
https://maps.app.goo.gl/vPoEP3hS1yGNsfSH9
And buying that requires knowledge of amazon, knowledge of what phone is useful, knowledge to avoid a scam or faulty product, an email address, a credit card, and a device to order from.
Children are surprisingly clever and have all the time in the world, but they aren’t professional pen-testers and don’t have the experience needed to use online services before having access to them.
It’s far more likely they get a hand-me-down device from a friend and keep it at school, especially if they know such a thing would be confiscated immediately upon discovery. Preventing this interaction would require control over the child’s life nearing Amish levels, or prison levels.
They sell these at Walmart, too. It really only requires a chance sighting of it and a couple weeks allowance for a young teen or kid to end up with one of these cheap smartphones.
See that’s more realistic. Sneaking off to walmart is still a bit of a stretch in sprawl-hell, but I can see how a cheap locally available phone might make it’s way into anyone’s hands, especially as a hand-me-down.
Phone maybe, but not a SIM card with data. Although you can do a lot without a SIM card if your school has public WiFi I guess
Yes, don’t do it. It’s a bad idea. Phones are addicting and one day when we all realize this, we will have laws to prevent it.
Because all of our current laws work so well at preventing access to addictive things. /s
Last time I checked, minors are orders of magnitude less likely to be smokers or drinkers than adults. Seems like the current laws we have for age-restricting things do, in fact, work.
The rate of marijuana use went up in recreationally legal states, while the rate of marijuana use amongst minors went down, because dispensaries enforce minimum age laws that dealers don’t.
The current laws allowing 13 year olds to sign a the TOS for a social media site need to be raised to match every other expectation of consent under contract law: 18 years old. For everyone saying that the parents are the ones that are supposed to be responsible, make them sign the TOS for their kids accounts, and then throw the book at them when they fail to protect their kids.
If anyone in the future ends up going to prison or losing custody of their children because they bought them a cellphone or let them use social media, we will have officially failed as a society. That is dystopian as all hell.
It is not the government’s place to parent people’s children for them, much less the dysfunctional government we have.
If anyone in the future ends up going to prison or losing custody of their children because they bought them a cellphone or let them use social media, we will have officially failed as a society.
I agree entirely, but do you have a response to what I said.
It is not the government’s place to parent people’s children for them, much less the dysfunctional government we have.
If you let a pedophile into your house, and let them rape your children, you shouldn’t be allowed to have children. If it happens digitally on your watch because you didn’t police your child’s access to the Internet like it actually matters, you were a bad parent.
So the argument boils down to it being due to bad parents rather than evil technology, yes?
That’s not the main arguments being used to ban these devices and advocate for more radical plans. Removing access to these doesn’t make someone a good parent. Kids turn to other methods.
And to an earlier point in another comment: guess which cohort has explosive growth in smoking at the moment? Not people our age. Teens and young adults of legal age. Gen Z, in particular, is a huge market for that industry now. Cigars and pipes in particular. Vapes are counted separately but are wildly popular.
Banning the sale of highly regulated goods where the state is the official and only legal seller of said good in many states is one thing. We are talking about the internet here, though. And cell phones. And computers. And tablets. May as well put TVs and connected devices on the list, and definitely console platforms.
Let’s go one step further…
VRChat on the Quest is not a babysitter!
Is that a step further though? I feel like not giving kids access to VR Chat comes way before not giving them a smartphone in terms of restrictiveness or severity. It’s a far more reasonable suggestion.
Both… but a Quest is mainly designed for gaming, where a smartphone is designed to do everything. The smartphone restriction is an easy one to recommend.
I don’t follow. Wouldn’t a limited-purpose device be easier to restrict than a general-purpose device?
Look at the Nintendo Switch. If there was ever an Internet-connected device to give your kids, it’s a Switch. I have never heard of anything untoward happening to a child on Nintendo’s online platform.
A Quest is an overpowered smartphone strapped to your face, with all the capabilities of such. You can restrict a smartphone too, but how many parents actually have that level of technical inclination? It’s better to limit the youngest minds’ times on these devices until they’re a bit older, and you’ve had more time to teach them important life skills. Also, parents teach your kids important life skills from an early age, please.
I think we actually agree, maybe just a misunderstanding.
I don’t believe that parental controls actually stop most kids from doing things they shouldn’t, and I think these devices are bad for a growing mind compared to real world human experiences.
I think I misunderstood you earlier thinking you said that smartphones were easier to agree to giving children over a VR headset, because a VR headset is only for gaming. I think we both agree that they are bad.
Children will be raised initially by an expanded roomba with arms amd a babysitting AI.
The first (and only) time I played VRChat, my takeaway was, “What kind of adult would want to play a game with this many preteens in every room?”
Then I answered my own question…
Yeah, public worlds are cancer. It’s best to get in with friends or groups.
That’s not my point. Kids congregate in public worlds, and predatory adults know where to find them.
…and that is my original point.
Make parents less entitled. Problem solved.
ME and CE warn against children under 16 handling firearms.
