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Yup, kind of like when we torture people and they call it ‘enhanced interrogation’.
Give something a sanitized term and people will run with it.
IDK, NYT has it’s issues but I don’t see anything wrong with their headline on this. They’re pretty explicit (possibly even skeptical given the other coverage of this…) that that’s what israel is calling these strikes. What else should they have said?
Oh wait hang on, “Israel assures west that IDF are ‘working closely’ with amrrican appointed DEI council to ensure no demographic group is unfairly left out of genocidal campaign”. They probably could have gone with that. Fucking hell, the only thing that makes my blood boil more than this
limpwristededit: wrist slap-y journalistic coverage is the literal cauldron of blood the IDF keeps scooting out of frame every time biden facetimes them…deleted by creator
If referring to a male, having effeminate qualities or characteristics perceived to be homosexual in nature.
Oh for… thanks. I’ve been using that one to mean ‘weakly slapped’ for the better part of my life.
Another one for the list of “Wait, that’s a slur?” “Always has been”
Oily Josh, why are so many idioms based in bigotry?
The word pre-emptive implies self-defense.
Israel is “preemptively attacking” the entire region.
“Casting attacks as” implies they are reporting on what the IDF is claiming though, and doesn’t confer additional editorial meaning beyond that. Of those four it’s the only one with a semblance of journalistic integrity.
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You’re blaming them for malice in what should be fairly attributed to the stupidity and laziness of the general population, though. If you seriously think they should be writing their headlines with the idea of summarizing the Lebanon/Israel situation in one sentence, you’re either an absolutely incredible writier, not their target audience or a straw man made up to illustrate my disagreement with your point.
Including a reference to the statements made by israel in the headline of an article about what israel has said is not unreasonable, regardless of your personal opinion about how that might reflect their bias. It stands that the NYT, of all those headlines, is the only one that doesn’t openly bias themselves towards israel by directly quoting the IDF, and even reflects reasonable skepticism on the statements made by the IDF. If you don’t understand that, it’s not really their fault.
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Clearly I’m not the one failing to understand anything
Pretty ironic that you would accuse me of constructing a strawman in the same sentence wherein you just constructed one yourself, however hypothetical you might have dressed it up.
Yes, that was me discrediting my own argument with self deprecating humor, a common literary device used to highlight the doubt I have in my own outlandish claim and imply that a less hyperbolic take is probably correct. Look, I’m going to be honest here: a huge point by point breakdown is the #1 sign of someone not arguing in good faith - it’s basically just a Gish-gallop. I read through everything, but you did nothing to engage with the substance of my comment, you just went through and presented opinions derived from anecdotally lived experience as though they are founded and incontrovertible fact.
My opinion, while clear to anyone paying attention, has nothing to do with the fact that including the official IDF version of events in the headline shows clear bias.
It stands that the NYT, of all those headlines, is the only one that doesn’t openly bias themselves towards israel by directly quoting the IDF
The simple truth is that, due I suspect to unfamiliarity, you do not understand the usage of passive voice or quotation in journalism. You keep demonstrating that, in your vigor to present your own perspective as though it’s somehow anathema to my point and will ward off understanding or introspection with the billowing fumes of vacuous crap, you are more eager to fight the good fight than you are to put in the effort to affect a change in yourself or another. To clarify: Having a conversation with you is pointless, and I am quite sure you’re aware of that. You are not attempting to influence me, you’re just attempting to rebut me and any other poster that presents a point counter to the one you hold, and that is tedious.
And yes, I am aware that my words aren’t going to sway you here, doubtlessly doing nothing but to drive you further into the defensive enclave we all retreat to when the Specter of Error looms nigh over our opinions, so perhaps presenting your own words in a new light will get through to you:
I don’t think it works that way
It does.
… Now just how in hell is this a constructive way of responding to someone?
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It’s true that it’s biased in favor of Israel, but I’d say a biased headline isn’t as bad as a misleading one which isn’t as bad as a lie.
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I don’t think it works that way, it can be at different places on the scale. The other OP headlines are worse than the NYT one because they directly imply the “pre-emptive” claim is true, as opposed to indirectly implying it by choosing to reference the perspective of the IDF.
I don’t think it works that way
It does.
The other OP headlines are worse
That’s irrelevant. Things don’t magically go from bad to good just because a worse version of the same thing exists.
they directly imply the “pre-emptive” claim is true, as opposed to indirectly implying it by choosing to reference the perspective of the IDF.
Only difference is how sneaky they are about it. The bias they’re deliberately trying to spread is the same.
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I’m not sure if you’ve genuinely misunderstood me, or if you are commenting to pick a fight. Assuming good faith: Casting is not a vague term, although you are correct that it does not imply they are quoting the IDF (who they are not quoting here. Yes, you can use the same words as someone you’re referring to without quoting them). It’s meaning is quite explicit in this context. That people may not understand is more the fault of the dire state of literacy in this country than it is of the person who wrote this fairly reasonable headline. I would prefer the headline be more critical, but it disappointingly isnt. That is my issue with it.
My comment was a bit poorly worded i’m taking the L on this one. NYT did indeed have a small disclaimer.
No. No it doesn’t. Preemption - in the military sense - could be used both offensively and defensively. If you are about to invade a country you could preemptively attack their parliament and barracks’ to make your invasion easier.
Hezbollah started firing missiles at Israel on October 7th and hasn’t stopped since. Of course Israel has a right to defend itself against these and attack their infrastructure.
Do you want Israel to just accept incoming rocket fire from Lebanon?
israel was bombing Lebanon and Gaza far before October 7 where history magically starts.
Furthermore israel assasinated a Hezbollah top leader in Beirut. That was an escalating attack. Lebanon is defending itself right now.
You expect a military force to sit tight, not move, not shoot, while they know the enemy is about to attack?
Because, the enemy “is defending itself”?
I’d love to hear that rally speech with which you would motivate your soldiers to just eat incoming rockets without using the tools they have to prevent being attacked.
I expect headlines to say “israel strikes Lebanon”. Not “israel pre-emptively self defences in Lebanon”.
You expect a military force to sit tight, not move, not shoot, while they know the enemy is about to attack?
I’d expect israel to accept a ceasefire in Gaza which is a condition given by Iran and Hezbollah to prevent retaliation. That is, if israel wanted to achieve peace. Which it doesn’t.
The only reason ever for Israel to fight in Lebanon was, that it was attacked from its territory. Hezbollah has prepared for this war for over a decade. Destroying Israel is pretty much the only purpose of Hezbollah.
Defensing against israel is the only purpose of Hezbollah.
Hezbollah was created as a response to israel terrorism.
Yikes who’s upvoting this homophobic racist? Zero surprise they’re defending genocidal propaganda. Fash support fash.
Homophobic I get (sorry, did not know about ‘limpwristed’, was genuinely unintentional) but racist?
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A homophonic racist fascist? Wow. How can somebody be that stoopid? You misused a phrase that you assumed meant weak - and let’s be honest - I can see how you could arrive at that conclusion. For all I know English could be your fourth language… then you had the absolute audacity to think there’s any complexity at all to a generations long war; and not a simple one-size-fits-all approach to geopolitical crises. You brought it on yourself, blud. Ignore the prOpAGanDa and BELIEVE EVERYTHING THAT INTERNET STRANGER HAS TOLD YOU. Ffs. Smh. /s
I cherish you.
Right back at ya, babe.
Nyt and Guardian seem fine, (in)directly quoting the idf.
It’s “strange” how imperial propaganda is always quoting the IDF but never the resistance.
I see a lot of articles quote the Gaza health ministry about casualty statistics
He said the resistance not the doctors.
The Gaza health ministry is run by the government of Gaza
The israeli ministry of health is ran by israel.
Officially. In reality, the vast majority of the Gazan hospitals* from where they count the dead are controlled by the UN through UNRWA.
*Of which there’s none fully functional, which is why we haven’t gotten up to date counts for at least a couple months. Which is 50% of the reason why the IDF specifically targets hospitals and healthcare workers, of course.
The problem isn’t them quoting it. The problem is passing along the blatant misinformation as truth. Why are you using their words when it’s very clearly wrong?
Israel attacks Lebanon is the correct headline.
Anything else is propaganda.
The strikes - whether you agree with them or not and regardless of your political posture - are genuinely seen as militarily preemptive. Israel apparently expected a large Hezbollah attack and tried to get in there first. They “preempted” any such attack. The Guardian employs actual speech marks - so it’s not an opinion but a quote. Newspapers can report what people say, even if the editorial policy is contrary to what gets reported. Linguistically the headli(n)es are correct. (I haven’t taken sides in the Israel-Gaza conflict as I know both sides are currently led by scum who have no qualms about slaughtering innocent people for their own personal gain and have no interest in any meaningful peace.)
The strikes are only pre-emptive if we put on white-nationalism glasses and take away Lebanon’s right to defend itself. Israel attacked Beirut first. TheGuardian quotes IDF propaganda but Hezbollah just “fires rockets”.
I haven’t taken sides in the Israel-Gaza conflict
…
Can I borrow your “white-nationalism glasses” and reread my OED? Perhaps the text will read differently… Whilst I applaud your passion and presumably heartfelt desire for this conflict to stop you can’t just redefine words on a whim. Language doesn’t generally work like that.
If you haven’t picked a side after 10 months of Genocide I can understand you’re not very passionate about the conflict. For more info see
To reiterate: both sides are led/ruled by murderous scum. I “picked my side” over twenty years ago when I traveled with an NGO in the area. The side I picked back then? The civilians. Both Israeli and Palestinian. Forget you and your holier than though attitude. If you think genocide has only been going on for ten months then you are so out of the loop regarding the entire region that your opinion has now become worthless.
Every party wants a peace solution except israel for the past 75 years. You’re talking like a school director which gets mad at the bullied kid when he finally fights back against the bully. While doing nothing while the kid was being bullied.
The West Bank has been trying to do peace with israel for many years. Even Hamas has stated they are open to a 2 state solution. Who isn’t open to peace? Only israel.
“While doing nothing while the kid was being bullied.”? Uh… not exactly. I’ve lost friends and colleagues to both sides and you have the fucking audacity to accuse me of taking the Zionist point of view? You’re just pissed-off that your bullshit making up meanings to pre-existing words was called out. That’s all I did. I made a simple linguistic observation and without you having any idea who I am, who I’ve worked with, where I’m from and where my family are from you’ve jumped to the most inaccurate assumption you could have. Well done, genius. Round of applause for you, you absolute doughnut.
The strikes are only pre-emptive if we put on white-nationalism glasses and take away Lebanon’s right to defend itself. Israel attacked Beirut first.
I guess as always with language, there are many possible interpretations. Yours is one, that’s right.
To me, it came somewhat surprising to see you connected “pre-emptive” to moral judgements, or to the question who attacked “first” (which is a controversial and potentially infinite topic to track the actual honest true ‘first’ origin).
Another interpretation is just military doctrine. The best defense is a good offense. Who cares who started the fight.
In this interpretation, the IDF felt there might be an attack incoming, and prevented it’s adversary from doing so by striking first.
Much like Hezbollah (or any other military force) would gladly pre-emptively strike their foe to protect their own troops. Doesn’t say anything about who started the overall conflict or even who’s right.
You still have a point; by highlighting the reasons behind the strike, and painting it as a protective measure, it probably makes it easier for the reader to sympathize.
In this interpretation, the IDF felt there might be an attack incoming, and prevented it’s adversary from doing so by striking first.
The idf assasinated top general Fuad Shukr in Beirut, far from the Lebanese border.
This is like if Hezbollah bombed Yoav Gallant in Tel Aviv. And then Hezbollah starts bombing israeli airports “pre-emptively” because “an israeli attack” (retaliation) is coming.
Hitting someone and then hitting them again because you expect them to hit back does not seem very " self defensy" or “pre-emptive” te me.
This is like if Hezbollah bombed Yoav Gallant in Tel Aviv. And then Hezbollah starts bombing israeli airports “pre-emptively” because “an israeli attack” (retaliation) is coming.
Yes, exactly. They had good reasons to assume the other side is angry and might do something violent, because they themselves just did something very violent to them! So to protect themselves, they deprive their opponents of means of retaliation. Pre-empting the retaliation.
Hitting someone and then hitting them again because you expect them to hit back does not seem very " self defensy" or “pre-emptive” te me.
I get you. I would totally agree if this was about a school dispute. However in war, there are a number of things which can be done in self defense or to pre-empt an enemy attack which might seem counterintuitive at first, like for example destroying your own infrastructure, or investing in weapons with the intent to never use them.
In war, an attacker can very well attack again to defend themselves and/or to pre-empt the enemy reaction.
If you could hire one of two generals to protect your country; one which considers pre-emptive follow-up attacks and one who would rather let the other side strike back because it seems fair, who would you hire?
Words like “defense” are used for israel. Words like “attack” are used for people defending themselves against israel.
This is because “defense” looks noble and “attack” looks violent and is associated with the aggressor of a conflict. Our media purposely chooses these words to subconsciously brainwash people. It is no coincidence these words are never swapped.
There’s a good reason the “ministry of War” is called the “ministry of Defense” now.
Of course these propaganda outlets also regularly make up lies for israel and let IDF soldiers write articles for them.
A fair take by the newsmedia would have been to use the word “retaliatory” for Hezbollah’s attack just like they used “preemptive” for Israel’s.
Both attacks have causes, so if one is mentioning the causes for one set of attacks (which makes it seem less senseless) one should also mention the causes for the other set of attacks.
The manipulativeness here is not the use of “pre-emptive” for Israel’s attacks, it’s in the systematic framing of Israel’s attacks as having “a reason” (in this case pre-emption) whilst the other side’s attacks are portrayed without mentioning the reason and hence sound senseless to anybody less well informed.
What they’re doing here is called “spin” or “framing” and it’s a Propaganda technique meant to project a more favorable impression about one of the parties involved.
Quality comment, well said.
I’m not sure (take that literally, please) wether both causes deserve to be treated as equals, but I can very much vibe with the general spirit of your comment. That’s what I had in mind when writing the last paragraph of my previous comment.
The Guardian is clearly quoting. Judging an article by its title is like judging a book by its cover: clearly misguided.
So is the NYT title
The rocket attacks Hezbollah did launch shortly afterwards lends a lot of credibility to Israel’s claim it was preemptive.
If I walked up and started punching you in the face because I said you looked like you were about to punch me…
Would you just let me beat you up to prove you weren’t gonna punch me?
Especially knowing there’s no one that would stop me from beating you up if you didn’t defend yourself?
What if after the fight I said I punched you for something you did last week?
I’d think what would have worked best was an immediate response, which is what you’re criticizing Hezbollah for doing…
But it sounds like you didn’t understand who was who in that metaphor
About as much as you punching somebody on the face could, after they punched tyouback, be claimed by you to be a preemptive punching of their face: i.e. it’s complete total bullshit.
And here we have the press from nations with heavily pro-Zionist governments and power elites spinning that bullshit into their stories whilst !World@lemmy.world moderator’s beloved “trust gatekeeper” has their own bot telling readers they’re totally trustworthy and even in some cases that those media sources spinning the-ethno-Fascists-are-the-real-victims-here takes on their stories were they’re the ones initiating violence, are lefties.
I’m not quite sure what’s the bullshit power in this, but it’s at least square.
PS: It’s funny how me and somebody else seem to have independently come up with the same metaphor, even if I worded it in a reversed way so as not to come out as aggressive.
If attacked they attack, that’s shitty evidence because they would have struck back anyway.
If Hezbollah rockets had fired first, would this have meant they were responding pre-emptively to Israeli airstrikes?
Since a lot of users don’t seem to have caught on yet:
The Intercept collected more than 1,000 articles from the New York Times, the Washington Post, and the Los Angeles Times about Israel’s war on Gaza and tallied up the usages of certain key terms and the context in which they were used. The tallies reveal a gross imbalance in the way Israelis and pro-Israel figures are covered versus Palestinians and pro-Palestinian voices — with usages that favor Israeli narratives over Palestinian ones.
The term “slaughter” was used by editors and reporters to describe the killing of Israelis versus Palestinians 60 to 1, and “massacre” was used to describe the killing of Israelis versus Palestinians 125 to 2. “Horrific” was used to describe the killing of Israelis versus Palestinians 36 to 4.
Only two headlines out of over 1,100 news articles in the study mention the word “children” related to Gazan children. In a notable exception, the New York Times ran a late-November front-page story on the historic pace of killings of Palestinian women and children, though the headline featured neither group.
Overall, Israel’s killings in Gaza are not given proportionate coverage in either scope or emotional weight as the deaths of Israelis on October 7. These killings are mostly presented as arbitrarily high, abstract figures. Nor are the killings described using emotive language like “massacre,” “slaughter,” or “horrific.” Hamas’s killings of Israeli civilians are consistently portrayed as part of the group’s strategy, whereas Palestinian civilian killings are covered almost as if they were a series of one-off mistakes, made thousands of times, despite numerous points of evidence indicating Israel’s intent to harm civilians and civilian infrastructure.
While I acknowledge that the MBFC does have some right wing bias, I think it serves its purpose. Aka to flag literal propaganda “news” sites.
The titles are literally accurate in the image. Israel is (unethically) launching preemptive strikes.
If you look at the .ml news communities that don’t use MBFC you will see that way too many news stories are from literally Russia Today, Southern China Morning Post, and other extremely biased to a very particular agenda publications.
I think people are trying to tie MBFC to being Zionist just so the bot will be dropped and it will be easier for them to normalize things like Russia Today outside of .ml spaces.
MBFC is ran by Zionists and rates Zionist propaganda outlets as accurate.
Example: https://unwatch.org/
that’s quite the theory… does the bot somehow prevent posts from those places? were there more instances of popular posts from those places before the bot?
I wouldn’t say it’s a theory. Just my thoughts / speculation. I would speculate that people who are pushing out RT / Alex Jones level content would be more hesitant to do so if there would be a big “this is not a reliable news source” sticker next to it.
I would speculate that people who point Alex Jones / RT stuff just hope people read the article without thinking about where it comes from.
Aka to flag literal propaganda “news” sites.
Why do I need MBFC to do this when I can just read someone in the comments who claims “This was posted by a Russian bot farm”?
If you look at the .ml news communities that don’t use MBFC you will see that way too many news stories are from literally Russia Today, Southern China Morning Post, and other extremely biased to a very particular agenda publications.
I don’t see any of that on their local front page. In fact, most of lemmy.ml’s front page is reposts from lemmy.world. The only other sources I see are the BBC, BoingBoing.Net, and TheConversation.Com.
I think people are trying to tie MBFC to being Zionist
The agent flags virtually every mainstream news source as Left or Center-Left. The AP, the Guardian, Reuters, CNN, you name it. The very concept of Left/Right seems to boil down to “Do American Conservatives hate you?” If they’re Zionist on top of that, it’s likely only because these corporate media outlets tend to track with the American foreign policy position of any given moment.
But don’t actually bother to ask why mainstream news gets consistently flagged as “Left Wing” despite mapping neatly to a right-wing government’s enthusiastic endorsement of various fascist middle eastern state leaders. Hell, don’t ask why mainstream news habitually runs gushy positive news stories about Saudi monarchs and North African military dictatorships.
To even raise the question… you must be getting your news from all the Russia Today articles on lemmy.ml.
The requirements of quality, fairness, honesty, transparency and bias-minimization of their process for a “trust gatekeeper” such as MBFC claims to be should be far higher that those for mere newspapers, not the other way around - the former wants to control your interpretation of everything you read on the Internet whilst the latter only controls what you read in their site.
One thing is when a guy you’ve seen a lot in your local pub asks you to “lend me a fiver”, a whole different thing is when a some random guy down the pub whom you don’t really know well keeps unpromptedly telling you “go talk to this guy, he is a great investment advisor” and then the second guys asks you to “give me all your life savings and I’ll make sure you’ll be rich”.
Not only is the level of proof any half way intelligent would demand to trust somebody with “a fiver” totally different from that to trust somebody with all of one’s life savings, but the second setup even stinks of funny business due to the whole hard-push by a 3rd party whom I don’t even know well enough to trust.
Just because you’re seeing more of the “complete total bollocks” style of propaganda from places like Russia and China in communities without MBFC doesn’t mean what you see in those that have MBFC is not propaganda-heavy: I actually lived in Britain for over a decade and also in other countries in Europe (and speak those languages so can follow their news) and certainly the BBC and The Guardian systematically - as exemplified here - spin their reporting, a far more subtle style of propaganda which is based in Marketing, PR and Politics methods to shape people’s impressions of specific actors (unlike the outright lying of the newsmedia from authoritarian countries) and which is especially common in Anglo-Saxon countries.
They’re just as much out to make up your mind for you rather than merely inform you (and at least the guys at The Guardian have very openly stated they’re “opinion formers”) as the Russian and Chinese media - they just use different techniques for their manipulation of people’s opinions.
MBFC activelly re-inforces the “spin” style of propaganda of very specific news outlets with specific politican biases by claiming they are highly trustworthy and even (laughably) left-of-center, and yet compared to the newsmedia from many European non-English Speaking countries this stuff is clearly and consistently massaged to manipulate the reader into feeling in a certain way towards one side and a different way towards another side.
News reporting using the same kind of techniques to manipulate people as Car Adverts, Investing Scams and Politicians isn’t Journalism.
Had I grown up reading and watching on TV all my life this kind of spin portrayed as “news”, I would have trouble noticing it, but I was born in Southern Europe and beyond Britain also lived in Northern Europe, so this style of spin used for “opinion forming” in most mainstream newsmedia in the English-speaking World really stands out for me because it’s always “loaded” in the same direction.
I never saw “pre-emptive” as an absolving term. You just decided to strike first: it’s relatively free from any connotations of propriety in my mind.
it has been said many times before, but, remember the USS Liberty
Miscommunication and and mistakes happen in every war.
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It was a chaotic situation during a war In a war zone, which are usually chaotic.
If it is as you say, why didn’t Israel sink the ship?
Why do I even ask. For people like you Israel is always the devil regardless of facts.
If it is as you say, why didn’t Israel sink the ship?
Because they did.
It’s pretty obvious you’re just here to defend israel without knowing what you’re talking about. If you want to learn something there’s a video in my previous comment.
You just linked to YouTube’s homepage, and a claim like that really needs a good source.
Cuz like, to be a false flag, they’d have had to try and blame it on someone else…
Israel didn’t try to hide the fact they did it, or blame it on anyone else. They just said they thought it was Egypt’s and tried to destroy it.
That’s just not a false flag
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Corrected the video.
Bruh…
Look at the title of the video, a fucking 4chan meme popped up as the thumbnail even…
That’s not a good enough source for a claim like that. It’s just shitty YouTube videos some random person made. And as bad as Israel is, you still have to be careful because lots of people dislike Israel because they dislike people who are Jewish, they don’t have a problem with the genocide of Muslims.
I’m not comfortable leaving those video links up, because it seems like that’s the type of people that made them.
Look at the title of the video, a fucking 4chan meme popped up as the thumbnail even…
Yes it’s called making a Youtube video. Thumbnails and Memes get people to click on video. Not "History review #495
The video is filled to the brim with direct quotes from people involved in the matter. Such as the CIA Director Richard Helms
The video is filled to the brim with direct quotes from people involved in the matter. Such as the CIA Director Richard Helms
And if you linked to a decent article or direct source with that information, that would be better.
But Israel would have still have needed to try and blame it on someone else for it to be a false flag.
Israel intentionally attacking an American ship isn’t a false flag. It’s fucked up, but that’s not what “false flag” is.
A screenshot of a YouTube video that has a screen shot of an unsourced document ain’t proof of anything.
Is a ‘massive strike’ bigger or smaller than a ‘large-scale attack’?
fuck hamas
It’s understandable, in an environment where they don’t control all the information that readers have access to, propagandists have to use framing techniques from PR, Marketing and Politics to push out a certain impression of trustworthiness and maximizing empathy towards one side, since they can’t just use outright lies without getting caught like propagandists in places like Russia can (mind you, the NYT has definitelly been caught repeating IDF lies).
At least this time around they didn’t use the trick of the Passive Voice (for example: “Massive strikes land in Lebanon”).
That propaganda trick is a pretty common one in the “reporting” of these news sources when they talk about Israeli bombings of civilians in Gaza (which are generally reported as “deaths in Gaza” as if they were just due to natural causes rather than being murders).
Mind you the “verbatum” and undisputed quoting of IDF claims on the title as exemplified here is also a pretty commonly used propaganda techniques by these newsmedia outlets.
