To all of these enlightened centrists in the comments: Just make sure to get down off the fence before the barbed wire goes up.
We are already at the point of campus grounds fenced up against protesting at multiple places,
Nazi germany had grocery stores. We won’t notice democracy ending.
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Says the account with endless far-right commentary while claiming to be “centrist”.
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On lemmy and most other social media, it’s 90% left. (If you don’t realize this, you aren’t even ready for an objective argument). Im also on Truth social, that’s 95% right folks.
No dude, you’re just so absolutely brain poisoned by concentrated fascist propaganda that you see center-right opinions as left. No actual centrist would think Truth Social is a reasonable example of normal right-wing dialogue, that’s a cesspit of far-right extremism. What you think of as left is just normal right.
Okay, I’ll bite, you wanna share some of those left of center opinions? Because as some other commenter pointed out, you comment history makes you look like far right.
Neoliberalism in the early 90s pulled in a few people from the Republican party, cost a shit ton of voters who had been faithfully voting D for their whole lives, and despite never really pulling anymore voters than that initial wave, the DNC still wants to continue the march to Reagan era trickle down economics hoping they can guilt trip voters because Republicans have gone absolutely insane on social issues to differentiate.
Meanwhile a candidate with an actual “centrist” economic policy isn’t something we’ve been able to vote for in a generation, let alone someone that would be described as “leftwing” in any other 1st world country. Because the billionaires donate to both parties to ensure they always win.
The only difference were allowed to have these days is social issues, and apparently it’s so bad now that genocide is one of the things the American public isn’t allowed to have a day in anymore.
Political centrism and moderation in the Democratic party didn’t begin with neoliberals.
Look, centrism is a real thing. There are people who really do like to analyze each and every problem from a more or less unbiased viewpoint and form strong opinions without the influence of ideology, while being ready for a compromise. Anyone who was serious about being a centrist I ever talked to defined their ideology this way.
With that being said there also are right-wingers who like to masquerade as centrist or sometimes moderate left just so they can use their supposed position to more effectively plant their ideas and try and normalize them.
But the thing I’m sick and tired of is when people try and pretend that this is true for every centrist, while ignoring the real problem that there are radical elements that try to masquerade as moderate ones and in doing so are polarizing and actively destroying our society.
Being centrist in America is just being right wing then generally. America is very skewed to the right globally
This view only works in a world where the right and left have a common view of reality and a common agreement on what the outcome should be, they just disagree on how to get there.
Which is why being centre-left or centre-right makes logical sense, since the positions and policies within those halves are consistent with their perception of reality and desired outcomes. And being unbiased about which position to pick within those ideologies is perfectly reasonable.
But being a centrist between the left and right doesn’t make sense, as the view of reality and goals is entirely distinct. There’s no middle ground between “cutting social services for the poor because you believe poor people deserve to be poor, and that hierarchical societies are inherently right”, and that “we should increase social spending to help those that are less fortunate because an equal society is inherently just”.
There is. It goes like this:
Deficit spending is fucking us as a nation. We cannot add new programs that we cannot afford. I neither believe that total equality is a good thing, nor that absolute hierarchy is a good thing. But having a well-structured hierarchy that facilitates movement around the hierarchy is valuable both from a structural standpoint and from a social standpoint.
Poor-specific social programs should be cut, and replaced with a UBI that is pulled from a universal (including stocks, bonds, etc) sales tax.
A federal health insurance that negotiates with medical suppliers to reduce costs, and that requires hospitals to charge the actual costs.
Being ideologically in between the left and right doesn’t mean that the left and right will provide reasonable options to vote for - just that you’ll vote for them if you can.
As you’ve seen with the massive inflation due to bank bailouts and covid spending (money just printed), we literally must stop the deficit spending, or else the economy will grind to a halt - like with covid, but way worse.
But centrism isn’t about finding the geometric mean of the two sides it’s about analyzing each problem separately, making compromises and initiating slow change.
I’m definitely center. There’s a ton of stuff I disagree with the majority of Lemmy on. (At least my home instance .world). That’s because reality is nuanced, not all progressive politics work, or left politicians good.
But I’m not stupid, both sides clearly are not the same. Both bad in unique ways (from an American perspective that is) but one side is so much worse than the other to such a extreme degree that most of their politicians and even to a smaller degree their followers are just not worth the time of day.
I wish we lived in a world where we could all get along and have differing ideas without everyone getting all mad. Sadly we don’t. So I play the line, that way my family can hopefully get the best outcome. It’s all I can do.
The problem with you is Center in America is right wing everywhere else, so you aren’t doing the good you think you are doing
center in america is right wing everywhere else
“everywhere else” is it though? USA center is right wing in many EU countries; most other countries governments are more right wing. Take a look at a map of where gay marriage is legal, or where marijuana use is criminalized.
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This comment is short sighted. As if I, a single person could change the government and slide it left.
Be change you want to see simply doesn’t work in a group setting. I can only work with what I have.
And what you have is a lot more than being a generic centrist- which again is really just being right wing.
Spoken like a true extremist, who can only see the world in terms of extremism.
If centrists are right wing, why would we ever vote left? Oh, it’s because of our right-wing agenda secretly involves voting left sometimes, just to throw you off-balance!
No, wait - it’s because the left can be a bunch of extremist nutbags, just like the right can. They they just think being unrealistic isn’t harmful, because they’re thinking happy equal good thoughts ++ everybody wins, and that can’t be wrong liek evar!
I feel the same. I considered myself just left of center but if the political compass site is to be believed im about halfway from center to the max extreme for both econimic left and social libertarianism. So I guess im fairly over but I still wonder if that site is still effected by current days because I feel like back in the 70’s so much was considered more of a central view.
Alot of this is due to the changes of the times. More people lean harder on both sides nowadays, or so it feels. The political landscape has changed alot since back then.
No idea what to make of all that though. Politics are hard.
Reality is nuances and America is big. Like REALLY big. I don’t think a lot of the policies that are important to big cities make as much sense in rural areas and vice versa.
There are big pictures issues, like women’s rights, gay rights, and trans rights that need to be protected across the country.
Then there are gun control policies that don’t make a lot of sense in towns of 300 people but seem like common sense in cities with millions of people.
Personally, I believe we need to work on cutting out the people and saboteurs who are willfully, vehemently, and incessantly trying to divide us. Those that are doing their damnedest to try and make each other the enemy.
Hard agree.
As someone that grew up most of my life in a tiny, rural Ohio area. There are so many strange laws that extend from the cities, many of which can outright just be bad for the area.
Policy wise, local democrats are rarely liked and seen as weak in rural areas, which in my experience is usually correct, unfortunately. The Republicans are always money grabbers but generally get things done.
Frankly the system sucks.
Honestly, it’s wild when I get into a policy debate and from someone’s stance I can tell whether they live in a city, in the country, in suburbs, or whatever. Its hard to argue policy when people refuse to acknowledge that there are other parts of the country that aren’t like the neighborhood they live in.
From my understanding, which I admit could be flawed, that is why there is the separation of federal, state, and local government.
Federal deals with the big shit across the country but doesn’t get caught up in the small shit that only applies to Montana. It also acts as the check and balance to state laws to prevent them from being too egregious.
Yeah, I think that’s how the separation is supposed to work. That being said, seems like the supreme court keeps poking it’s nose where it doesn’t belong. But all I can really do is complain on a lesser used website and vote.
Also, side note, how is Montana? I live in Texas atm, cause I followed my fiance down here, and it sucks. But we eventually want to get a house and may not stay here.
I recently moved from California to Illinois.
I just used Montana since it’s a low population density state.
I mostly liked California. Other than the CARB restrictions on cars, most of its legislation just let me live my life in peace. But liking to modify cars put me at odds with the emissions laws. It’s not like I was poluting heavily, it’s just that I needed a custom tune to burn fuel efficiently when I had done an engine swap. They won’t even measure the emissions anymore and just have “approved” ECU codes they test for. California is just very expensive, too expensive for buying a home for me right now.
Illinois is good too, at least in the Chicago suburbs. I can hop on a train and go downtown any time I want, I’ve got good schools, good community, and lots to do.
I’ll have to look into Illinois, I’m originally from Ohio, and oh boy let me tell you, I hate Columbus. It’s practically half of the state at this point. And that sucks, the extended area is seriously changing how Ohio looks, so many suburbs, so many factories.
Ewww no. Fuck balance. Go hard when you can, mitigate losses when you can’t.
I’ll count on you to do that.
I mean, damn, I consider myself a centrist but that basically means “not a worthless shitheel asshole traitor in the bag for russia and against doing anything for the American people”. I think gummint should GTFO peoples lives (so fuck off with your shit about gay people and religion and abortion) and pay its fucking bills (so fuck off with your tax cuts and spending). And it’s fucking absolutely asinine that any mentally defective degenerate can get a goddamn semiautomatic weapon, are you fucking nuts?
It doesn’t really sound like you want the government to get out of people’s lives. Fair taxation, defending protected classes, and gun regulation are all very hands-on, and I agree that they’re all important. The real thing right wingers mean when they say “small government” is “no regulation for corporations or states” so they can be as authoritarian as they want locally and the rich don’t need to pay taxes. Banning gay marriage, controlling reproductive rights, and immigration control are not small government tasks, they’re just tasks they want the authority to mandate on a state level since they know they’ll never get the entire country on board.
What I wish more “centrists” would realize is that no one in the country, except anarchists, actually want small government, because they can’t enforce control over the things they don’t like without it. Rules for thee, not for me.
Don’t try to put me into one of your boxes please.
A 2 party system is a bad idea.
I’m not from the US but I would describe myself a a left leaning centrist. The parties I voted for in the last 5 elections where all center left.
If you map the parties based on left/right and progressive/conservative my vote is definitely center left and high progressive.
The US has a political system that sucks, where you only have 2 real options. A system where multiple parties have to form a coalition gives you the voter many options.
The parties I voted for in the last 5 elections where all center left.
Part of the problem with American politics is that you’ve got a set of centrist policies (fund public education and health care, regulate hazardous businesses, guarantee some degree of public safety, high speed mass transit, business friendly borders) that are significantly different from actual policy that the Congressional consensus reaches (privatization of education and health care, business deregulation, privatization of security, mass transit neglect, borders that are hostile to trade and travel for anyone who isn’t a corporate entity).
A system where multiple parties have to form a coalition gives you the voter many options.
I haven’t seen that bare out in the European block. Christian Democrats dominated German politics for decades, despite a multi-party system. The Netanyahu government has built coalitions that lean further and further to the right, until he’s embraced outright fascism to stay in power. Taiwanese parliamentarians openly brawl on the assembly floor, without ever shifting domestic policy in a popular direction. The UK political landscape does not appear to meaingfully improve with the introduction of Scottish Nationals or Liberal Democrats.
You might have more options on paper, but the real policies always seem to favor private corporations and international arms dealers, regardless of which faction or coalition composition wins out.
To be fair, Israel and Taiwan aren’t in Europe, and the UK has the same bullshit FPTP two-party system the US inherited.
Israel and Taiwan aren’t in Europe
Do multi-party systems have a geography limit?
the UK has the same bullshit FPTP two-party system the US inherited.
The UK has twelve seated parties and thirteen independent parliamentarians.
I’m not left or right I’m a secret third thing (Our current system is a complete joke and I’m plagued with dread about my inability to enact meaningful change, I still vote and stuff, but I don’t feel like I’m having much of an effect)
What is the word… I used to hear it all the time but haven’t really heard it much these days. Oh what is that word.
Nuance.
Oh, neat. Propaganda done in the style of Far right facebook boomer humor! Love seeing Lemmy constantly generalize and misrepresent people.
This was me before covid, then I got radicalized to the left.
lol Destiny
You’re right: we should be socialists and have governments like the PRC, North Korea, the ex-USSR, Cuba, Hoxhua’s Albania, or the Stalinists in Spain during their civil war. Say what you will about the Khmer Rouge and Sendero Luminoso, but they weren’t centrists or moderates.
Acting like the US isn’t an oligarchy because Musk and Bezos don’t wear silly green suits with medals
The rich certainly have their influence, but are the assets of those 2 equal to 1% the US GDP?
Does the bottom 70% of individuals in the US control more assets than JPM? Might surprise you
Through their votes, they arguably have almost 70% of government assets, and most of their real assets aren’t paper.
It was a yes/no question and what the fuck is this, exactly? Hold that thought - say ‘yes’ or say ‘no’
I’d say yes they do.
JPM controls over 5% of US wealth while the bottom 50% control ~2.5% so you’re a little off. Top 1% controls a third
Because the only options are North Korea or whatever the fuck you’re doing, I guess
What Asian country has a government that is significantly different from either North Korea or South Korea, and one that’s reasonably good (i.e. not bad)?
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PRC, North Korea, the ex-USSR, Cuba, Hoxhua’s Albania, or the Stalinists in Spain during their civil war
What?
Why are you using rightwing dictatorships that lie about what they are. Instead of the actual socialist countries in Europe?
What actual socialist countries in Europe?
I think part of the problem here, is you don’t understand socialism is an economic system.
And before you say “someone has to enforce it”, yeah, that’s how society works man. People have to enforce capitalism too, if you need examples of that, well…
That’s an article from 1950, perhaps not so relevant anymore today.
Not to say socialism isn’t a strong influence in many European countries, though I wouldn’t go so far as to call a European country as being primarily economically and politically “socialist”. Democratic socialism / Social democratic maybe, but that is much more of a centrist set of policies than the outright goal of a workers-owning-the-means-of-production economy. Just my 2c.
perhaps not so relevant anymore today.
Take your pick:
https://www.lifeinnorway.net/scandinavian-socialism/
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_socialism#Europe
https://www.oxfordbibliographies.com/display/document/obo-9780199756223/obo-9780199756223-0022.xml
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/top-15-democratic-socialist-countries-181857008.html
https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/democratic-socialist-countries
than the outright goal of a workers-owning-the-means-of-production economy. Just my 2c.
https://www.history.com/news/socialism-communism-differences
The simple fact is that Scandinavian countries are not, by any reasonable definition, socialist.
That’s your first link.
Scandinavia and the Nordic countries can be best described as social democracies. Effectively, they’re democratic countries in which its citizens are well cared for.
Some refer to this as democratic socialism, though this is far from correct. Some economists refer to it as cuddly capitalism, contrasting with what is seen as cut-throat capitalism in other Western countries.
And in Germany, Germany is called Deutschland…
What they have in the Nordic countries is described as socialism virtually everywhere else.
In America advocating for a 1/10 of what they have gets jumped straight to communist.
It shouldn’t be a surprise that context is important.
Yet here we are
So you want the US government to own 67% of all US oil companies and have all the profit go into a state fund.
Because it isn’t socialism, you’d vote for the US government to take over the private oil companies, right?
FWIW,
and,
https://chomsky.info/1986____/
The Soviet Union Versus Socialism
Noam Chomsky
Our Generation, Spring/Summer, 1986
In what European country is there a political system where:
1a. let’s say >75% of the means of production is controlled by the state, syndicalists (i.e. the factory has no owner, it is run by the workers), or independent people (and I don’t mean independent contractors that for-profit companies use)
2b. such as system isn’t repressive
Bruh.
You’re talking about communism…
Do you think theyre the same thing or just not know the difference?
I don’t know for sure, but it seems that communists, most who seem to identify as Marxist-Leninists, or pretty much like them, describe themselves as socialists.
What is your definition of socialism?
Yeah. There’s no way someone could be this ignorant and this opinionated without ever putting in the two minutes to google it themselves.
You saying every country to the left of us, and there’s a ton, are basically totalitarian regimes? And please, tell me which countries are more right wing than us that you’d be happy to live in?
probably none,
but IIUC leftism isn’t necessarily socialism.
CINO
