So basically what you are saying is we just need one pvp game with kernel level anti cheat to fuck up somewhere… yeah I’m sure that’s not going to happen.
Probably only on a targeted attack. I don’t see it being a mass target attack like a worm could be.
And in the realm of businesses, how many programs are running in kernel level besides the antivirus/ED(P)R solution?
I don’t see it being a mass target attack like a worm could be.
Why not? Malware that survives a full new install is extremely valuable, and there are loads of games adding vulnerabilities with required kernel level rootkits. It’s only a matter of time until one of these vendors is exploited, and why wouldn’t you permanently own the significant chunk of the market with unpatched serious vulnerabilities while you’re at it?
Again: Mass spread vs target attack.
Remember WannaCry? Yeah, I don’t see that happen.
But (industrial) e-spionage on the other hand? Yup. Will happen 100%
Kernel level game anticheats are a great attack vector, and it’s one that inherently identifies and enables distribution to other vulnerable targets. It’s begging to self replicate.
Industrial espionage does not make sense, because most enterprises have, even if imperfect, restrictions on what can be installed on company computers that contain valuable information. You’re not going to get a game with kernel malware on a managed enterprise computer.
Are you ignoring what I wrote earlier in the same thread?
Probably only on a targeted attack. I don’t see it being a mass target attack like a worm could be.
And in the realm of businesses, how many programs are running in kernel level besides the antivirus/ED(P)R solution?
Anyway. Counter question: Why do you think gamers appear as a more valuable target with the anti cheat as a possible attack vector vs a business running literally the same CPU line-up but with fewer kernel level programs?
My personal opinion: You can’t extract as much money from private folks vs a business through blackmail and other solutions. Not in a wide casted attack.
Targeted individuals can be assumed to be at a higher risk (e.g. hacking their private devices like the gaming pc and then doing home office work in the same network, or misusing trust in the home network between pc and phone and then installing malware like pegasus).
But again: Not in a wide casted net. And you are probably better of using the good exploits for higher value targets.
You’re responding to a post about exploiting kernel level anticheat and saying it would only be a targeted attack, despite that inherently not making sense. When you find a vulnerability in that software, there is absolutely no reason not to spread it en masse. The cost to infect one person is the same as the cost to affect tens of thousands or more. The game is both the vulnerability and the distribution method.
Gamers aren’t more valuable. They’re more accessible. Because there isn’t a kernel rootkit “anticheat” developer on the planet who gives two shits about security in any context, and there are a massive number of systems that their insane hacky bullshit touches. Every single one of them has their security automatically compromised. The goal isn’t just information. You’re getting a massive, distributed, residential IP botnet that you can’t lose unless they throw their systems in the trash.
we just need one pvp game with kernel level anti cheat
Leaving aside that security patches should be done, if you install that kind of game on a system where you have any data worth protecting, you’re a dumb ass mtherfcker. Sorry, but seriously, that’s just how it is.
Despite this being reported on tech news, most people won’t even be aware that it’s a thing because most people won’t actually read about it. And the majority of gamers probably don’t even know what a kernel is or why an anti-cheat with elevated privileges would be a bad thing.
Most people buy their computers with Windows preinstalled and probably couldn’t tell you if the CPU is Intel or AMD.
Okay, fair point, let me rephrase: if someone knows what kernel (admin) level execution means, and installs a game that requires this on a computer where they keep important data, they are a dumbass mtherfcker :)
Generally speaking though: most people shouldn’t be allowed to use technology - humans are unbelievably stupid for the most part.
Kernel level and admin level is not the same thing. For example on windows, you can’t really write your own kernel driver, and on Linux even root can’t do everything if capabilities have been revoked.
For the purpose of protecting important data, the distinction really doesn’t matter. And the good old xkcd comic has a point - for many people, all relevant data is in the user’s accessible storage area anyways. Hence me running almost all internet applications and steam in a jail.
So basically what you are saying is we just need one pvp game with kernel level anti cheat to fuck up somewhere… yeah I’m sure that’s not going to happen.
Probably only on a targeted attack. I don’t see it being a mass target attack like a worm could be.
And in the realm of businesses, how many programs are running in kernel level besides the antivirus/ED(P)R solution?
And with crowd strike we have seen how reliable Antivirus is.
Why not? Malware that survives a full new install is extremely valuable, and there are loads of games adding vulnerabilities with required kernel level rootkits. It’s only a matter of time until one of these vendors is exploited, and why wouldn’t you permanently own the significant chunk of the market with unpatched serious vulnerabilities while you’re at it?
Again: Mass spread vs target attack.
Remember WannaCry? Yeah, I don’t see that happen.
But (industrial) e-spionage on the other hand? Yup. Will happen 100%
For what reason?
Kernel level game anticheats are a great attack vector, and it’s one that inherently identifies and enables distribution to other vulnerable targets. It’s begging to self replicate.
Industrial espionage does not make sense, because most enterprises have, even if imperfect, restrictions on what can be installed on company computers that contain valuable information. You’re not going to get a game with kernel malware on a managed enterprise computer.
Are you ignoring what I wrote earlier in the same thread?
Anyway. Counter question: Why do you think gamers appear as a more valuable target with the anti cheat as a possible attack vector vs a business running literally the same CPU line-up but with fewer kernel level programs?
My personal opinion: You can’t extract as much money from private folks vs a business through blackmail and other solutions. Not in a wide casted attack.
Targeted individuals can be assumed to be at a higher risk (e.g. hacking their private devices like the gaming pc and then doing home office work in the same network, or misusing trust in the home network between pc and phone and then installing malware like pegasus).
But again: Not in a wide casted net. And you are probably better of using the good exploits for higher value targets.
You’re responding to a post about exploiting kernel level anticheat and saying it would only be a targeted attack, despite that inherently not making sense. When you find a vulnerability in that software, there is absolutely no reason not to spread it en masse. The cost to infect one person is the same as the cost to affect tens of thousands or more. The game is both the vulnerability and the distribution method.
Gamers aren’t more valuable. They’re more accessible. Because there isn’t a kernel rootkit “anticheat” developer on the planet who gives two shits about security in any context, and there are a massive number of systems that their insane hacky bullshit touches. Every single one of them has their security automatically compromised. The goal isn’t just information. You’re getting a massive, distributed, residential IP botnet that you can’t lose unless they throw their systems in the trash.
The USB and network stack
Leaving aside that security patches should be done, if you install that kind of game on a system where you have any data worth protecting, you’re a dumb ass mtherfcker. Sorry, but seriously, that’s just how it is.
Ignorance is not stupidity.
Despite this being reported on tech news, most people won’t even be aware that it’s a thing because most people won’t actually read about it. And the majority of gamers probably don’t even know what a kernel is or why an anti-cheat with elevated privileges would be a bad thing.
Most people buy their computers with Windows preinstalled and probably couldn’t tell you if the CPU is Intel or AMD.
Okay, fair point, let me rephrase: if someone knows what kernel (admin) level execution means, and installs a game that requires this on a computer where they keep important data, they are a dumbass mtherfcker :) Generally speaking though: most people shouldn’t be allowed to use technology - humans are unbelievably stupid for the most part.
Kernel level and admin level is not the same thing. For example on windows, you can’t really write your own kernel driver, and on Linux even root can’t do everything if capabilities have been revoked.
For the purpose of protecting important data, the distinction really doesn’t matter. And the good old xkcd comic has a point - for many people, all relevant data is in the user’s accessible storage area anyways. Hence me running almost all internet applications and steam in a jail.