I’m bisexual and an atheist. Do you honestly expect me to have cohesion with the alt right, who would like to see me assaulted/deported/dead? This is a ridiculous suggestion.
I’m not saying be friends of the right, I’m saying that both sides demonizing each other only pushes the left farther left and right farther right. Until it becomes untenable and the country unravels, which is where it is going. See trevors axiom.
Ranked choice would certainly be better (approval and star would be best), but there is no way that a change like that fixes the problem on its own. This is a cultural problem, a problem with election financial regulations, it’s a problem with the media, etc. You don’t cure fascism with ranked choice voting.
Really? I believe you do fix facism with ranked choice. Allowing us actual representation with multiple parties would allow for things like trump to be forced to make their own party, which would have zero real power, because the majority of people wouldnt have rallied behind him, the only reason he has as much sway as he does now is because moderate republicans felt forced to vote for him purely through 2 party tribelism.
I’m saying that both sides demonizing each other only pushes the left farther left and right farther right. Until it becomes untenable and the country unravels, which is where it is going. See trevors axiom.
So are you saying we should just not point out that they are fascists? Because calling them (rightfully) fascist is demonizing.
Allowing us actual representation with multiple parties would allow for things like trump to be forced to make their own party
And that would be great, but ranked choice alone doesn’t get us to actual representation. As long as lobbying is still legal, the problem will persist. As long as SCOTUS remains an unelected political position, the problem will persist. And so on.
There are a million reasons why our elections and political system is fucked. Disproportional voting systems is only one of them.
So are you saying we should just not point out that they are fascists? Because calling them (rightfully) fascist is demonizing.
Great question, Lets try not calling every single person who votes republican a facist (even though we know thats were its going, a majority of the voters are truly victims of rhetoric), because then you force them to only be allowed to associate with facists.
Make sure to keep it clear that trump and his chronies are the facists, and remember that the republican voters are victims (of their own ignorance? yes, but also from the hands of the biollionaire media moguls, and a country that has been cutting back education for this exact reason).
And that would be great, but ranked choice alone doesn’t get us to actual representation. As long as lobbying is still legal, the problem will persist. As long as SCOTUS remains an unelected political position, the problem will persist. And so on.
So in my first post i mentioned that ranked choice voting is only the first step, i believe abolishing the two party system is the only way we can ever achieve the next goals youve mentioned. ESPECIALLY when its clear if u read every post here that both sides of the aisles refuse to work together, so we cant affect any of those changes. A two party system will naturally bring both extremes of the aisle back in and then we can actually fix the other problems plaguing us.
Lets try not calling every single person who votes republican a facist
I don’t. But I will still call republicans/GOP voters fascist sympathizers, because at a bare minimum if you’re still voting red, you’re sympathetic to Trump and therefore sympathetic to fascism. That’s still demonizing language, and it is deserved.
And for those of his supporters who are fervent, and genuinely believe in his messaging, they’re clearly fascists. Nazis didn’t get a pass for falling victim to rhetoric, neither do fervent Trump supporters.
i believe abolishing the two party system is the only way we can ever achieve the next goals youve mentioned.
And better voting systems will never be achievable until the two party system is abolished. The DNC and GOP establishment are both married to the two party system. We either take over the DNC with reformists, or things will continue to degrade until the point where people have nothing left to lose and take to the streets violently.
So in my first post i mentioned that ranked choice voting is only the first step, i
I’d recommend you look into approval and star voting, as RCV has a number of critical weaknesses.
I don’t. But I will still call republicans/GOP voters fascist sympathizers, because at a bare minimum if you’re still voting red, you’re sympathetic to Trump and therefore sympathetic to fascism. That’s still demonizing language, and it is deserved.
Yes keep pushing people closer to the middle farther to the right, dont try to meet them in middle in ideology, tell them theyre facists sympathizers so they go farther right.
And for those of his supporters who are fervent, and genuinely believe in his messaging, they’re clearly fascists. Nazis didn’t get a pass for falling victim to rhetoric, neither do fervent Trump supporters.
Yeah i agree with the fervant supporters, theyre fully in a cult now, nothing will bring them out of it.
And better voting systems will never be achievable until the two party system is abolished. The DNC and GOP establishment are both married to the two party system. We either take over the DNC with reformists, or things will continue to degrade until the point where people have nothing left to lose and take to the streets violently.
Yeah ive said about the same thing in other comments on this thread, its a pipe dream, but i can see no other way the country doesnt slip into destruction, so ill keep advocating for it.
I’d recommend you look into approval and star voting, as RCV has a number of critical weaknesses.
I will take anything that removes our 2 party system, i dont care what it is. But RCV has name recognition at this point.
Yes keep pushing people closer to the middle farther to the right, dont try to meet them in middle in ideology, tell them theyre facists sympathizers so they go farther right.
I never said anything about the middle. I was specific to the GOP/Trump supporters.
If you vote for a fascist, or support a fascist, you are a fascist sympathizers at a bare minimum. We’re not getting out of this situation by shielding fascist sympathizers from criticism. We didn’t stop racists from being racist by shielding them from criticism.
Dealing with this requires criticism, and forcing them to see the error of their ways whether they like it or not.
The germans didn’t change their minds until they were forcibly marched to the camps to see the death and destruction they wrought upon the jews and other prisoners.
Yeah i agree with the fervant supporters, theyre fully in a cult now, nothing will bring them out of it.
I’m glad we can agree on this.
I will take anything that removes our 2 party system, i dont care what it is
If we are going to put effort into fixing this problem we should fix it right, we shouldn’t take half measures.
But RCV has name recognition at this point.
So does McDonald’s but that doesn’t mean it is a good choice.
I never said anything about the middle. I was specific to the GOP/Trump supporters.
But there are moderate republicans that have voted red for so long they cant vote blue because of habit and endless rhetoric. While they are facist sympathizers in that they vote red with their ehad in the sand, wether they know it or not, what do you gain by calling them that? Nothing really, its just inflammatory, and it will drive them farther towards the facist ideology as it will be the only place that will accept them.
Dealing with this requires criticism, and forcing them to see the error of their ways whether they like it or not.
Hard disagree. You should look into how to change peoples minds, because if you start by calling them a facist sympathizer its over. This is the biggest reason I’m against this kind of speech, while true, that person wont identify as such, but they will recognize the attack on them, put up their guard, and then its done. If you want to convince people of stuff, you have to find middle ground with them first and then broach topics from your point of view without speaking in antagonizing labels, or find a way to show how you both actually want the same thing, its a slow process, but it requires finding common ground to approach the topics you really want to convince them on from.
The germans didn’t change their minds until they were forcibly marched to the camps to see the death and destruction they wrought upon the jews and other prisoners.
This just shows how people need proof to accept things sometimes, the conversation is about changing minds and reducing polarization though, so I don’t know what point you’re trying to make with this. If its that they need to be called facists to learn, you are mistaken. Personal attacks never lead to a change of mind. You are better off showing (note: not calling, but showing) how the republican party are facists, than by calling the voters facists. In fact even using the word facist wont help, you may have better progress by getting them to agree the constitution is a marvelous document we should protect, they will agree, this is common ground, then you say something like “its a real shame it doesn’t hold the supreme court accountable for bribes though” or maybe “its a real shame that they are trying to give the executive branch unchecked power” as this is definitely not what the framers ever had in mind, its the exact opposite,. But this is how you argue stuff to affect change.
If we are going to put effort into fixing this problem we should fix it right, we shouldn’t take half measures.
Great is the enemy of good, anything that gets rid of the 2 party system while allowing multiple parties can and should be supported whole heartedly. You cant get hung up on finding the best solution when the solution presented helps us not steer off of the cliff. But yes, we should fight for the best system, but rally behind whichever one is chosen in the end, much like every election, you wish the candidate was inline with your views, but you’ll swallow and vote for what is available anyways.
So does McDonald’s but that doesn’t mean it is a good choice.
It is better than our current system, this is good enough for me, and it should be for you, but again, any system that allows for multiple parties is a good choice.
While they are facist sympathizers in that they vote red with their ehad in the sand, wether they know it or not, what do you gain by calling them that?
I’m not seeking to gain anything. But I do want to live in reality, and so I will call a fascist sympathizer a fascist sympathizer.
Nothing really, its just inflammatory, and it will drive them farther towards the facist ideology as it will be the only place that will accept them.
Those lifelong GOP voters were already going to end up fully in cult mode in support of fascism, or they were eventually going to snap out of it. Calling them what they are doesn’t change that.
that person wont identify as such, but they will recognize the attack on them, put up their guard, and then its done.
They put up their guard 8 years ago during the 2016 election. Nothing you say to them will change anything.
If you want to convince people of stuff, you have to find middle ground with them first and then broach topics from your point of view without speaking in antagonizing labels
There are some people who aren’t worth convincing though. And they’re called fascist sympathizers. It is not possible to convince them to change course.
In fact even using the word facist wont help, you may have better progress by getting them to agree the constitution is a marvelous document we should protect, they will agree, this is common ground, then you say something like “its a real shame it doesn’t hold the supreme court accountable for bribes though” or maybe “its a real shame that they are trying to give the executive branch unchecked power” as this is definitely not what the framers ever had in mind, its the exact opposite,. But this is how you argue stuff to affect change.
And right after that they’ll vote Trump anyways.
Great is the enemy of good, anything that gets rid of the 2 party system while allowing multiple parties can and should be supported whole heartedly.
I never said perfection was required. I am simply saying, if we are going to spend effort on election reform it should be the best option. The resources needed to run an election is pretty much the same regardless of which type it is.
It sounds like were at an impasse, I want to fix the problem before it evolves farther, but you think its already past saving, or at the very least you can only see a route to saving the country that goes through calling half the country fascists and hoping they listen.
I’m not saying be friends of the right, I’m saying that both sides demonizing each other only pushes the left farther left and right farther right. Until it becomes untenable and the country unravels, which is where it is going. See trevors axiom.
Really? I believe you do fix facism with ranked choice. Allowing us actual representation with multiple parties would allow for things like trump to be forced to make their own party, which would have zero real power, because the majority of people wouldnt have rallied behind him, the only reason he has as much sway as he does now is because moderate republicans felt forced to vote for him purely through 2 party tribelism.
So are you saying we should just not point out that they are fascists? Because calling them (rightfully) fascist is demonizing.
And that would be great, but ranked choice alone doesn’t get us to actual representation. As long as lobbying is still legal, the problem will persist. As long as SCOTUS remains an unelected political position, the problem will persist. And so on.
There are a million reasons why our elections and political system is fucked. Disproportional voting systems is only one of them.
Great question, Lets try not calling every single person who votes republican a facist (even though we know thats were its going, a majority of the voters are truly victims of rhetoric), because then you force them to only be allowed to associate with facists. Make sure to keep it clear that trump and his chronies are the facists, and remember that the republican voters are victims (of their own ignorance? yes, but also from the hands of the biollionaire media moguls, and a country that has been cutting back education for this exact reason).
So in my first post i mentioned that ranked choice voting is only the first step, i believe abolishing the two party system is the only way we can ever achieve the next goals youve mentioned. ESPECIALLY when its clear if u read every post here that both sides of the aisles refuse to work together, so we cant affect any of those changes. A two party system will naturally bring both extremes of the aisle back in and then we can actually fix the other problems plaguing us.
I don’t. But I will still call republicans/GOP voters fascist sympathizers, because at a bare minimum if you’re still voting red, you’re sympathetic to Trump and therefore sympathetic to fascism. That’s still demonizing language, and it is deserved.
And for those of his supporters who are fervent, and genuinely believe in his messaging, they’re clearly fascists. Nazis didn’t get a pass for falling victim to rhetoric, neither do fervent Trump supporters.
And better voting systems will never be achievable until the two party system is abolished. The DNC and GOP establishment are both married to the two party system. We either take over the DNC with reformists, or things will continue to degrade until the point where people have nothing left to lose and take to the streets violently.
I’d recommend you look into approval and star voting, as RCV has a number of critical weaknesses.
Yes keep pushing people closer to the middle farther to the right, dont try to meet them in middle in ideology, tell them theyre facists sympathizers so they go farther right.
Yeah i agree with the fervant supporters, theyre fully in a cult now, nothing will bring them out of it.
Yeah ive said about the same thing in other comments on this thread, its a pipe dream, but i can see no other way the country doesnt slip into destruction, so ill keep advocating for it.
I will take anything that removes our 2 party system, i dont care what it is. But RCV has name recognition at this point.
I never said anything about the middle. I was specific to the GOP/Trump supporters.
If you vote for a fascist, or support a fascist, you are a fascist sympathizers at a bare minimum. We’re not getting out of this situation by shielding fascist sympathizers from criticism. We didn’t stop racists from being racist by shielding them from criticism.
Dealing with this requires criticism, and forcing them to see the error of their ways whether they like it or not.
The germans didn’t change their minds until they were forcibly marched to the camps to see the death and destruction they wrought upon the jews and other prisoners.
I’m glad we can agree on this.
If we are going to put effort into fixing this problem we should fix it right, we shouldn’t take half measures.
So does McDonald’s but that doesn’t mean it is a good choice.
But there are moderate republicans that have voted red for so long they cant vote blue because of habit and endless rhetoric. While they are facist sympathizers in that they vote red with their ehad in the sand, wether they know it or not, what do you gain by calling them that? Nothing really, its just inflammatory, and it will drive them farther towards the facist ideology as it will be the only place that will accept them.
Hard disagree. You should look into how to change peoples minds, because if you start by calling them a facist sympathizer its over. This is the biggest reason I’m against this kind of speech, while true, that person wont identify as such, but they will recognize the attack on them, put up their guard, and then its done. If you want to convince people of stuff, you have to find middle ground with them first and then broach topics from your point of view without speaking in antagonizing labels, or find a way to show how you both actually want the same thing, its a slow process, but it requires finding common ground to approach the topics you really want to convince them on from.
This just shows how people need proof to accept things sometimes, the conversation is about changing minds and reducing polarization though, so I don’t know what point you’re trying to make with this. If its that they need to be called facists to learn, you are mistaken. Personal attacks never lead to a change of mind. You are better off showing (note: not calling, but showing) how the republican party are facists, than by calling the voters facists. In fact even using the word facist wont help, you may have better progress by getting them to agree the constitution is a marvelous document we should protect, they will agree, this is common ground, then you say something like “its a real shame it doesn’t hold the supreme court accountable for bribes though” or maybe “its a real shame that they are trying to give the executive branch unchecked power” as this is definitely not what the framers ever had in mind, its the exact opposite,. But this is how you argue stuff to affect change.
Great is the enemy of good, anything that gets rid of the 2 party system while allowing multiple parties can and should be supported whole heartedly. You cant get hung up on finding the best solution when the solution presented helps us not steer off of the cliff. But yes, we should fight for the best system, but rally behind whichever one is chosen in the end, much like every election, you wish the candidate was inline with your views, but you’ll swallow and vote for what is available anyways.
It is better than our current system, this is good enough for me, and it should be for you, but again, any system that allows for multiple parties is a good choice.
I’m not seeking to gain anything. But I do want to live in reality, and so I will call a fascist sympathizer a fascist sympathizer.
Those lifelong GOP voters were already going to end up fully in cult mode in support of fascism, or they were eventually going to snap out of it. Calling them what they are doesn’t change that.
They put up their guard 8 years ago during the 2016 election. Nothing you say to them will change anything.
There are some people who aren’t worth convincing though. And they’re called fascist sympathizers. It is not possible to convince them to change course.
And right after that they’ll vote Trump anyways.
I never said perfection was required. I am simply saying, if we are going to spend effort on election reform it should be the best option. The resources needed to run an election is pretty much the same regardless of which type it is.
It sounds like were at an impasse, I want to fix the problem before it evolves farther, but you think its already past saving, or at the very least you can only see a route to saving the country that goes through calling half the country fascists and hoping they listen.