• mofongo@lemm.ee
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    1 year ago

    Thats actually a really good dilemma if you think about it. Like if everyone doubles it you basically don’t kill anyone. But you’ll always risk that there’s some psycho who likes killing and then you will have killed more. And if these choices continue endlessly you will eventually find someone like this. So killing immediately should be the right thing to do.

    • The Snark Urge@lemmy.world
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      1 year ago

      This is really the only answer. The only thing that makes it “hard” is having to face the brutality of moral calculus

      • LazaroFilm@lemmy.world
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        1 year ago

        Now, what if you’re not the first person on the chain? What if you’re the second one. Or the n one? What now? Would you kill two or n knowing that the person before you spared them?

        • Neato@kbin.social
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          1 year ago

          The thing to do is kill now even if it’s thousands. Because it’s only going to get worse.

          The best time to kill was the first trolly. The second best time to kill is now.

          • apollo440@lemmy.world
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            1 year ago

            Yes, but it also kinda depends on what happens at and after junction 34, from which point on more than the entire population of earth is at stake.

            If anything, this shows how ludicrously fast exponentials grow. At the start of the line it seems like there will be so many decisions to be made down the line, so there must be a psycho in there somewhere, right? But (assuming the game just ends after junction 34) you’re actually just one of 34 people, and the chance of getting a psycho are virtually 0.

            Very interesting one!

            • The Snark Urge@lemmy.world
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              1 year ago

              It’s not that interesting. If you rephrase the question as a choice between a good option and a less good one, it’s still barely even a choice.

              “Would you rather have only one (or, say, trillions) die now, or would you like to allow *at a minimum *twice that many people die the second we talk to a sadist?”

              If you can’t choose the smaller number, all it means is that you lack moral strength - or the test proctor has put someone you know on the tracks, which is cheating. A highly principled person might struggle if choosing between their daughter and one other person. If it’s my kid versus a billion? That’s not a choice, that’s just needless torture. Any good person would sacrifice their kid to save a billion lives. I take that as an axiom, because anything else is patently insane.

              • apollo440@lemmy.world
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                1 year ago

                Kill fewer people now is obviously the right answer, and not very interesting.

                What is interesting is that the game breaks already at junction 34, which is unexpectedly low.

                So a more interesting dilemma would have been “would you kill n people now or double it and pass it on, knowing the next person faces the same dilemma, but once all humanity is at stake and the lever is not pulled, the game ends.”. Because that would involve first of all figuring out that the game actually only involves 34 decisions, and then the dilemma becomes “do I trust the next 33-n people not to be psychos, or do I limit the damage now?”. Even more interestingly “limiting the damage now” makes you the “psycho” in that sense…

                • The Snark Urge@lemmy.world
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                  1 year ago

                  The fact of the game never ending is what made the choice too easy, you’re right.

                  EDITED

                  For this study you want sociopathy, not psychopathy. I can report from my wasted psych degree that sociopathy occurs in 1-2% of the population.

                  Binary probability tells us that if you repeat a 1% chance test 32 times, you have a 95% chance of never seeing it.

                  Don’t pull the lever. Sorry for the ninja edit, I misread something.

                  • ArbitraryValue@sh.itjust.works
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                    1 year ago

                    you have a 95% chance of never seeing it. Don’t pull the lever.

                    I’m confused: 0.99^32 = 0.72, not 0.95. And if you know that everyone except the last guy won’t pull the lever, that’s still a 1% chance of killing everyone on earth (average expected deaths: 70 million) is way worse than definitely killing one person!

                    (Edit: unless “don’t pull the lever” means killing that one person, because it isn’t clear which is the default “no action” outcome. In which case, never mind.)

          • Rodeo@lemmy.ca
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            1 year ago

            How could you know someone else is going to do it though? And how is their decision your responsibility?

            If you kill someone you are a killer. It’s that simple.

    • Sotuanduso@lemm.ee
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      1 year ago

      But you’ll always risk that there’s some psycho who likes killing and then you will have killed more.

      I disagree. The blood is not on your hands.

      Suppose you see someone walking towards a bank with a gun. You have an opportunity to steal their gun. If you don’t, and they go on to kill 5 people in an armed robbery, is the blood on your hands?

      Suppose you see a hunter in the woods with a gun. You have an opportunity to kill them. If you don’t, and they go fire on a city street and kill 5 people, is the blood on your hands?

      Suppose you see a juvenile delinquent on the path to being a serial killer. You have an opportunity to kill an old lady in front of them to scare them straight. If you don’t, and they go on to kill 5 people, is the blood on your hands?

      Suppose you see a newborn baby. You have an opportunity to kill them. If you don’t, and they grow up to become a terrorist and kill 5 people, is the blood on your hands?

        • Sotuanduso@lemm.ee
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          1 year ago

          If I have to kill a person to stop a chance that a random person will be evil or misguided enough to choose to kill millions, it’s not worth it.

          Murder is wrong, and that’s an absolute. And then someone’s gonna come in with the “what if you have to kill someone to stop nuclear war from destroying the earth, and you can’t just get the authorities for some reason?”

    • atlasraven31@lemm.ee
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      1 year ago

      Eventually there might also be a track with no people on it so postponing the dilemma becomes much better than at least 1 death. But there is no way of knowing what the future dilemma might be.

    • CarbonIceDragon@pawb.social
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      1 year ago

      Assuming of course that it goes on forever. Which admittedly seems like what one is intended to think, but the graphic doesn’t actually show or state that, and realistically, if actually given this scenario, it shouldn’t, because eventually some limit will be encountered that makes it impossible for the problem to physically exist (like running out of people to tie to the tracks, running out of space for them, having such a large amount of stuff in one space that it undergoes gravitational collapse, the finite size of the observable universe making fitting an infinite dilemma impossible, etc.)

    • HummingBee@sh.itjust.works
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      1 year ago

      That leads to another interesting split path. Maybe it’s best to just kill the one right away. Assuming this goes on forever, it’s basically inevitable that someone somehow will end up killing an obscene number of people eventually. But maybe it’d be like nukes, and eventually reach a point where flipping the lever is just mutually assured destruction, and no one would ever actually do that

    • dan1101@lemmy.world
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      1 year ago

      Yeah so it would be tough to decide if you wanted to be at an early, middle, or late junction. All depends on how to people on the switches think.