I just want to join in to remind everyone that multiple things can be true at the same time.
The DNC/Biden can and should be doing better.
We only have 2 options for president. It will be one of the two main candidates because that is how the system works. Don’t pretend it doesn’t. You either vote for one of those two or you are ok with either.
We should be pressuring Biden to do more about both Ukraine and Gaza. Ending both conflicts and getting aid to people.
Choosing to vote for a 3rd party to protest Biden’s response to Gaza/Israel is only going to help Trump in the short term. Yes, long term Biden and DNC may notice their total votes going down, but in the short term it will put Trump in the Whitehouse and now what? What did you accomplish if the DNC realizes they fucked up, but can’t do anything about it because Trump is now a dictator?
Politics is a slow moving thing. Too many people expect some perfect ideal candidate or policy and won’t compromise on anything. That isn’t how it works, you have to compromise and slowly pull things the way you want. It doesn’t happen in one election cycle.
We should have been and should be campaigning and pushing for changes to our system so that we can have better options in the future. We need to push for Ranked Choice Voting (or anything better than FPTP). And voting in local level elections to make small changes across the country. Term limits. Campaign finance reforms. Etc etc. because until we get a new system we effectively can’t just vote for who we want or it doesn’t do anything more than a fart in a hurricane.
I see a lot of people who are saying they will not vote for Biden because the Gaza/Israel issue. Which I completely understand. But the two truths you have to accept in doing so is that you will not be complicit in the genocide. But you will be complicit if Trump wins. Both can be true. You decide which one you would rather see. If you don’t want Trump then the only option is a vote for Biden. And until we reform our voting system we don’t have viable 3rd parties and pretending we do is just delusional. Look at every election for the last hundred years and you will see enough proof. It’s not ideal, but it is reality. **Accept it **so we can change it together.
I would add that there ARE things you can do to help stop the genocide, that are not refusing to vote. I absolutely believe that the demonstrations, protest votes, calls to congresspeople, and so on, are part of what’s behind the changes to the US’s Israel policy recently (sanctions on settlers, pause in the weapons shipments, stuff like that - that’s nowhere near enough and no excuse for Biden’s support for Israel during the “war” and before it, but also, nothing ANYWHERE near that has happened in 75 years of consistently war-criminal support by the US for Israel).
All that stuff makes a difference and can help stop the genocide. Refusing to vote does nothing to stop the genocide and risks putting someone in office who is much much worse (actively wants to kill more Palestinians.)
Politics is a slow moving thing. Too many people expect some perfect ideal candidate or policy and won’t compromise on anything. That isn’t how it works, you have to compromise and slowly pull things the way you want. It doesn’t happen in one election cycle.
It took fifty years of consistent Evangelical support, along with their advantage of low population density, to get to a point where Roe was overturned.
Yeah. It could just be that they are a leftist who just doesn’t have much at all of a factual understanding of 20th century history in any respect, and is substituting an overall rosy picture of anything non Western instead of even the broadest of broad strokes of factual statements and understanding
But… it could also be someone who didn’t have a Western education with its notable gaps in what we wanna admit happened, and instead had a different education with a different set of notable gaps on what we wanna admit happened, such that it didn’t even occur to them that praising the USSR’s justice system would be a totally bizarre thing to say from the perspective of being supposedly a Westerner talking to another Westerner.
Do you want to feel good about your choice or do you want your choice to make a small difference?
I want wars and genocides and murders and suffering and death and sickness to be minimal or zero. I want my fellow humans to be happy and healthy and thrive. I want my labor and work to be a positive thing for society and also benefit me fairly. I want to be a part of ensuring the ecosystem doesn’t collapse. I want to learn from others and I want to be able to teach others. And I have a feeling you agree with me on those things.
But I also am approaching this from reality. And I am acknowledging that with our voting system as it is today, you can either vote for 1 of 2 candidates or you don’t care who wins and are complicit with their choices the next 4 years. That is simply reality.
But I also agree with you that ideally we could vote for not-genocide. I want that so badly. But we have to have a viable means to do that first. So let’s work together and push for a system where our voices can be heard and can make a difference. In the meantime I’d rather see Biden in office which gives us a chance for those things vs Trump which has said and demonstrated he will try to end it.
I’m not trying to be difficult, I’m trying to make the point of reality vs ideal. And we aren’t at ideal yet, so we need to work toward it.
You sound reasonable, truly. BUT, I have zero tolerance for genocide. I don’t think that is an extreme position. I couldn’t sleep at night because I rationalized genocide. It is that bad. I wish more people would do the same.
The problem with putting your foot down on this issue and refusing to help prevent Trump from winning is that we are all saying that historically, in every previous election, doing that ends up getting the worse of 2 options elected.
It’s like we have a burning building full of people and the only water we have is Nestle, so you stand there declaring you will not use that water and be complicit in using that product. But that is ignoring the problem of the fire. Let’s put the fire out first with whatever we can use and THEN we need to be talking and fighting as hard as we can for better options later.
That’s what everyone is trying to get you to see. We have a fire. Here. Now. Let’s put it out. Then we can all go work on the next issue of not using toxic water.
This really is a Trolley Problem, because both main candidates lead to some amount of suffering. But refusing to pull the lever IS making the choice to let the default happen and that DOES still make you complicit just as much as pulling the lever left or right does.
We are all stuck in this and there is no ethical choice no matter what you do, so we are trying to choose the least total harm.
And again, with our voting system it’s a first one across the finish line wins thing. Two candidates have tons of momentum and have gotten 90% there, side by side, all the other candidates are essentially barely off the start line. It makes no sense to try to push 3rd party now here in the final moments. You have to build that momentum WAY before now.
Here is another thing to consider. Imagine Trump or Biden in the next 4 years as president. Now also imagine we all get together and protest and campaign and demand action be taken to stop Israel. How likely is it that Trump would change his mind and help? How likely is it Biden would? To me, it sure seems like the former is a 0 and while the latter isn’t great, it’s above 0. Maybe there is a chance we can elect Biden and all protest and petition enough that he gets it and does something. Make it clear we demand some action to help stop the killing. But if Trump gets in there’s no chance.
Lastly, I just want you to know I don’t resent you for whatever choice you make. I hate the system, not you. We are stuck in a shitty system and I don’t want to be fighting with you, our fight is the bigger one. Obviously you will do what you feel is right, whatever that may be. And I will too. I hope we can make things better for the future, friend.
This is their plan if they win, it’s in the open, and it’s the end of Democracy in the United States.
Do you want to not vote?
If you don’t vote you might not ever vote again.
Even if you aren’t lgbtq it’s highly unlikely that you don’t know someone who isn’t. They will suffer first.
Know any women? They’ll lose control over their bodies, thier periods monitored by the state
You like having sex? Don’t like getter her pregnant though? Hope that you like pilling out because say goodbye to condoms. Actually that’s a sin to spill your seed so you’re going to jail for that too.
Say that you actually want to have a baby? Maybe you waited to do it, but now you’re having trouble? Say goodbye to invitro fertilization. That’s not God’s way. If he wanted you to have a baby he would have made it happen. Clearly something is wrong with you. You’re defective and must be bad.
Oh, you call God by a different name or don’t believe?
Sucks, you’re going to need some corrective education. You Heathen!
It’s literally good to be A Handmaid’s Tale.
But stand by your principles.
Maybe it won’t happen here.
But what if it does?
When God Emperor Trump jails his enemies.
Suspends the constitution.
“Leader for life, I like the sound of that.”
We are in hell, and there is no escape. You can vote to make a slight improvement, or not. Voting for a third party for president in this election cycle is nothing.
Not voting for Biden supports Trump, who will be even worse regarding Gaza. So either you’re a troll, an idiot, or actively want to make genocide worse?
This kind of thinking is how you end up with only two options.
A third option emerges when enough people say “I am not voting for either of those two”.
You either vote for one of those two or you are ok with either.
Or, it means you’re not okay with either.
We need to push for Ranked Choice Voting (or anything better than FPTP).
Canada has FPTP voting and still manages to have four federal political parties.
Australia has ranked ballots and effectively has a two-party system that hasn’t changed in 80 years (though they do sometimes manage to get some independents elected to parliament)*.
I’m not saying the voting system is irrelevant. But the true obstacle to multi-party democracy is the fact that voters think in a polarized two-party way (that you are currently reinforcing).
* This is a description of Australia’s House of Representives. Their Senate uses proportional representation, and does have more than two parties. And technically Australia has three political parties in the House of Representives, but two of them have been in a permanent coalition since 1946 and are often treated as a single entity, with the result that Australians consider themselves to have a two-party system.
I just want to join in to remind everyone that multiple things can be true at the same time.
The DNC/Biden can and should be doing better.
We only have 2 options for president. It will be one of the two main candidates because that is how the system works. Don’t pretend it doesn’t. You either vote for one of those two or you are ok with either.
We should be pressuring Biden to do more about both Ukraine and Gaza. Ending both conflicts and getting aid to people.
Choosing to vote for a 3rd party to protest Biden’s response to Gaza/Israel is only going to help Trump in the short term. Yes, long term Biden and DNC may notice their total votes going down, but in the short term it will put Trump in the Whitehouse and now what? What did you accomplish if the DNC realizes they fucked up, but can’t do anything about it because Trump is now a dictator?
Politics is a slow moving thing. Too many people expect some perfect ideal candidate or policy and won’t compromise on anything. That isn’t how it works, you have to compromise and slowly pull things the way you want. It doesn’t happen in one election cycle.
We should have been and should be campaigning and pushing for changes to our system so that we can have better options in the future. We need to push for Ranked Choice Voting (or anything better than FPTP). And voting in local level elections to make small changes across the country. Term limits. Campaign finance reforms. Etc etc. because until we get a new system we effectively can’t just vote for who we want or it doesn’t do anything more than a fart in a hurricane.
I see a lot of people who are saying they will not vote for Biden because the Gaza/Israel issue. Which I completely understand. But the two truths you have to accept in doing so is that you will not be complicit in the genocide. But you will be complicit if Trump wins. Both can be true. You decide which one you would rather see. If you don’t want Trump then the only option is a vote for Biden. And until we reform our voting system we don’t have viable 3rd parties and pretending we do is just delusional. Look at every election for the last hundred years and you will see enough proof. It’s not ideal, but it is reality. **Accept it **so we can change it together.
I would add that there ARE things you can do to help stop the genocide, that are not refusing to vote. I absolutely believe that the demonstrations, protest votes, calls to congresspeople, and so on, are part of what’s behind the changes to the US’s Israel policy recently (sanctions on settlers, pause in the weapons shipments, stuff like that - that’s nowhere near enough and no excuse for Biden’s support for Israel during the “war” and before it, but also, nothing ANYWHERE near that has happened in 75 years of consistently war-criminal support by the US for Israel).
All that stuff makes a difference and can help stop the genocide. Refusing to vote does nothing to stop the genocide and risks putting someone in office who is much much worse (actively wants to kill more Palestinians.)
Oh Trump would accelerate the genocide.
He has already said that they’re taking too long and the Gaza strip makes for great beachfront property.
With Biden, at least the Palestinians might get a country of their own.
With Trump? They’ll be buried under the condos overlooked by the Trump Tower.
It took fifty years of consistent Evangelical support, along with their advantage of low population density, to get to a point where Roe was overturned.
Politics isn’t slow: It’s glacial.
You will be ok voting for genocide. Gotcha
We JUST explained this all to you, Zoolander. Like a moment ago. Like JUST now.
No, you think you did but you spoke in circles.
Dude just take the L
deleted by creator
You will be okay enabling genocide+. Gotcha.
deleted by creator
Did you reply to the wrong person?
Yes. I meant to do the person above you.
Another idiot to block. Thanks
Ahh the old fingers in your ears method. Favorite tactic of the ignorant and weak.
Removed by mod
deleted by creator
Yeah. It could just be that they are a leftist who just doesn’t have much at all of a factual understanding of 20th century history in any respect, and is substituting an overall rosy picture of anything non Western instead of even the broadest of broad strokes of factual statements and understanding
But… it could also be someone who didn’t have a Western education with its notable gaps in what we wanna admit happened, and instead had a different education with a different set of notable gaps on what we wanna admit happened, such that it didn’t even occur to them that praising the USSR’s justice system would be a totally bizarre thing to say from the perspective of being supposedly a Westerner talking to another Westerner.
I have a theory which one it is
I mean this in the kindest way possible:
Do you want to feel good about your choice or do you want your choice to make a small difference?
I want wars and genocides and murders and suffering and death and sickness to be minimal or zero. I want my fellow humans to be happy and healthy and thrive. I want my labor and work to be a positive thing for society and also benefit me fairly. I want to be a part of ensuring the ecosystem doesn’t collapse. I want to learn from others and I want to be able to teach others. And I have a feeling you agree with me on those things.
But I also am approaching this from reality. And I am acknowledging that with our voting system as it is today, you can either vote for 1 of 2 candidates or you don’t care who wins and are complicit with their choices the next 4 years. That is simply reality.
But I also agree with you that ideally we could vote for not-genocide. I want that so badly. But we have to have a viable means to do that first. So let’s work together and push for a system where our voices can be heard and can make a difference. In the meantime I’d rather see Biden in office which gives us a chance for those things vs Trump which has said and demonstrated he will try to end it.
I’m not trying to be difficult, I’m trying to make the point of reality vs ideal. And we aren’t at ideal yet, so we need to work toward it.
You sound reasonable, truly. BUT, I have zero tolerance for genocide. I don’t think that is an extreme position. I couldn’t sleep at night because I rationalized genocide. It is that bad. I wish more people would do the same.
The problem with putting your foot down on this issue and refusing to help prevent Trump from winning is that we are all saying that historically, in every previous election, doing that ends up getting the worse of 2 options elected.
It’s like we have a burning building full of people and the only water we have is Nestle, so you stand there declaring you will not use that water and be complicit in using that product. But that is ignoring the problem of the fire. Let’s put the fire out first with whatever we can use and THEN we need to be talking and fighting as hard as we can for better options later.
That’s what everyone is trying to get you to see. We have a fire. Here. Now. Let’s put it out. Then we can all go work on the next issue of not using toxic water.
This really is a Trolley Problem, because both main candidates lead to some amount of suffering. But refusing to pull the lever IS making the choice to let the default happen and that DOES still make you complicit just as much as pulling the lever left or right does.
We are all stuck in this and there is no ethical choice no matter what you do, so we are trying to choose the least total harm.
And again, with our voting system it’s a first one across the finish line wins thing. Two candidates have tons of momentum and have gotten 90% there, side by side, all the other candidates are essentially barely off the start line. It makes no sense to try to push 3rd party now here in the final moments. You have to build that momentum WAY before now.
Here is another thing to consider. Imagine Trump or Biden in the next 4 years as president. Now also imagine we all get together and protest and campaign and demand action be taken to stop Israel. How likely is it that Trump would change his mind and help? How likely is it Biden would? To me, it sure seems like the former is a 0 and while the latter isn’t great, it’s above 0. Maybe there is a chance we can elect Biden and all protest and petition enough that he gets it and does something. Make it clear we demand some action to help stop the killing. But if Trump gets in there’s no chance.
Lastly, I just want you to know I don’t resent you for whatever choice you make. I hate the system, not you. We are stuck in a shitty system and I don’t want to be fighting with you, our fight is the bigger one. Obviously you will do what you feel is right, whatever that may be. And I will too. I hope we can make things better for the future, friend.
Not voting lets Trump do the genocide instead.
Voting is literally the least effective form of civil engagement.
But at least voting for Biden you’re maybe not going to see project 2025 come to pass.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=op0yk50uMlQ
This is their plan if they win, it’s in the open, and it’s the end of Democracy in the United States.
Do you want to not vote? If you don’t vote you might not ever vote again.
Even if you aren’t lgbtq it’s highly unlikely that you don’t know someone who isn’t. They will suffer first.
Know any women? They’ll lose control over their bodies, thier periods monitored by the state
You like having sex? Don’t like getter her pregnant though? Hope that you like pilling out because say goodbye to condoms. Actually that’s a sin to spill your seed so you’re going to jail for that too.
Say that you actually want to have a baby? Maybe you waited to do it, but now you’re having trouble? Say goodbye to invitro fertilization. That’s not God’s way. If he wanted you to have a baby he would have made it happen. Clearly something is wrong with you. You’re defective and must be bad.
Oh, you call God by a different name or don’t believe? Sucks, you’re going to need some corrective education. You Heathen!
It’s literally good to be A Handmaid’s Tale.
But stand by your principles. Maybe it won’t happen here.
But what if it does?
When God Emperor Trump jails his enemies. Suspends the constitution. “Leader for life, I like the sound of that.”
If voting for genocide let’s you sleep at night. Go for it.
Whatever you say tanky
There’s no vote against genocide. You vote for genocide flavor A, genocide flavor B, or you say you don’t care which flavor of genocide you get.
Arguing against voting tor genocide flavor A means you support genocide flavor B, whether you want to admit it or not.
You’re trying to talk your way out of hell. There is NO reason that can make me vote yes to genocide. What about that can you not get?
We are in hell, and there is no escape. You can vote to make a slight improvement, or not. Voting for a third party for president in this election cycle is nothing.
Not voting for Biden supports Trump, who will be even worse regarding Gaza. So either you’re a troll, an idiot, or actively want to make genocide worse?
Which is it?
That is your only defense to genocide? Sad.
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Voting for Joe?
Genocide Joe? then yes, these cucks will
^ Donald Trump approves this message.
You people REALLY need a new bit. This one is old and tired.
Why would I care what you think?
Cause that’s how we grow as human beings. Try it sometime.
This kind of thinking is how you end up with only two options.
A third option emerges when enough people say “I am not voting for either of those two”.
Or, it means you’re not okay with either.
Canada has FPTP voting and still manages to have four federal political parties.
Australia has ranked ballots and effectively has a two-party system that hasn’t changed in 80 years (though they do sometimes manage to get some independents elected to parliament)*.
I’m not saying the voting system is irrelevant. But the true obstacle to multi-party democracy is the fact that voters think in a polarized two-party way (that you are currently reinforcing).
* This is a description of Australia’s House of Representives. Their Senate uses proportional representation, and does have more than two parties. And technically Australia has three political parties in the House of Representives, but two of them have been in a permanent coalition since 1946 and are often treated as a single entity, with the result that Australians consider themselves to have a two-party system.
Very well said!