Yes but see, if we just sit on our hands and don’t vote we won’t have any responsibility for what follows! Only voting for someone who is less than ideal on this issue is a morally bad choice!
I totally understand the point most of them are trying to make and agree with the sentiment, but they’re fucking morons. 100% absolute jibbering idiots.
This is an ugly binary choice here because the United States electoral system is a steaming pile of horse shit. Do what I, your friendly neighborhood lefty, am doing and swallow your pride and vote for center right Joe Biden because he’s leagues better than the dementia-addled, fascist Cheeto Benito. Then take all the disgust you’ve built up by voting for and living with another neoliberal corporate shill presidency and work your ass off to make sure we don’t have to keep voting between Dumb and Dumber every fucking election.
Do it because we’ll only be gently tiptoeing to the right under a Biden presidency, so it’s less likely you’ll end up in jail for discussing the “wrong” political ideology while that orange shitstained merkin would have me in jail just for writing this were it up to him. Don’t make it up to him.
Every time I encounter the “don’t vote” brigade, my first thought is that it’s a Russian or Chinese troll trying to get Trump elected again.
My second thought, which is a bit more nuanced, is some introspection on what Biden is actually doing. He has three options with regards to Israel, none of them good.
He could deny them weapons, which would inevitably lead to outright war with Iran and an increase in Russian influence in the region, as well as a loss of an ally.
He could fully commit to Netanyahu’s madness (i.e., what Trump wants to do), fully empowering genocide while using no political leverage on Israel. This would also ultimately lead to broad regional warfare, which will also likely increase Russian influence in the region.
He could try to limit the damage by imposing conditions on weapons sales and attempt to thread the needle, recognizing Hamas for the grotesque terrorist organization it is while using political pressure to prevent as much needless death of civilians as possible. This is what Biden is trying to do.
I don’t know that Biden is doing a very good job with #3, but #1 would be a catastrophe, and #2 is what Trump wants.
This is a shitty situation in every conceivable way. Our ally, Israel, is currently being run by a corrupt and genocidal freak. There are no good answers to a situation like that beyond Israel coming to its senses and throwing Netanyahu in prison. But there are plenty of really bad answers, and Trump would be the worst.
He could deny them weapons, which would inevitably lead to outright war with Iran and an increase in Russian influence in the region
Why?
He could fully commit to Netanyahu’s madness (i.e., what Trump wants to do), fully empowering genocide while using no political leverage on Israel.
Biden is doing this - he is threatening the ICC and ICJ
He could try to limit the damage by imposing conditions on weapons sales and attempt to thread the needle, recognizing Hamas for the grotesque terrorist organization it is while using political pressure to prevent as much needless death of civilians as possible. This is what Biden is trying to do.
Biden is not doing this. We have not stopped weapon shipments and have clearly been unable (more like unwilling) to stop or prevent Israel’s genocide
Also, Israel is not our ally. Their geopolitical interests align with Putin. Which is why they are trying to get Trump elected so that they can destroy the remnants of the “rules based international order” and begin in earnest their conquest of Greater Israel
Biden is doing this - he is threatening the ICC and ICJ
No, he isn’t. Where in the world are you getting the idea that he’s literally “threatening” either?
Biden is not doing this. We have not stopped weapon shipments and have clearly been unable (more like unwilling) to stop or prevent Israel’s genocide
Dude, we temporarily halted shipments earlier this month to put pressure on Netanyahu. Were you sleeping?
Also, Israel is not our ally. Their geopolitical interests align with Putin. Which is why they are trying to get Trump elected so that they can destroy the remnants of the “rules based international order” and begin in earnest their conquest of Greater Israel
Netanyahu’s interests may align with Putin, but only insofar as both seem hell-bent on destabilizing the region. Putin would gladly let Iran stroll right into Israel and slaughter everyone in it. Israel’s own actual interests do not remotely align with Putin’s.
Yes, but why does that mean stopping US weapons shipments to Israel would cause Iran to invade/attack/etc? Israel has a huge weapons stockpile and is still a Western ally - they just happen to be committing genocide with American funds and bombs.
Where in the world are you getting the idea that he’s literally “threatening” either?
“The administration of President Joe Biden will work with Congress on possible sanctions against the International Criminal Court after its prosecutor announced it was seeking arrest warrants for senior Israeli and Hamas officials, US secretary of state Antony Blinken said on Tuesday.”
we temporarily halted shipments earlier this month to put pressure on Netanyahu
We resumed those shipments and funds, and Israel has since crossed Biden’s red line and attacked Rafah
Netanyahu’s interests may align with Putin
Netanyahu/Likud are dictators who control Israel. Until he/they are removed, their interests are Israel’s interests. Which means that Israel is a Russian asset with a stranglehold on American funds thanks to AIPAC
US presidents are required by American law since 2008 to ensure that Israel is better armed than all its neighbours. Biden doesn’t have a real choice unless he can get a bill through both houses to stop arming Israel. I don’t think that’s even remotely realistic.
Trump would be twice as bad for Palestine. “Finish them” is an actual call to genocide.
But you don’t care for facts, you just want to blame Biden for everything that you think left wingers might not like so they’ll not vote and Trump can get in.
Yes. Humans are given to certainty and judgement in excess of what the evidence merits, so I have taken to understatement.
I’m not convinced that Joe Biden is fascism, though. Would you be so kind as to compare him to Umberto eco’s list, and share examples on each point? Trump seems like a much better match to that, but perhaps I have missed something.
I don’t think I said that. Can you show me where I did?
I will say that you have a slice of responsibility over the future, and you’ll have to live with the consequences of whatever decision you end up making - including the one where you sit on your hands. No matter what you do, you can still complain about it, but the future will be whichever one we collectively steer to. One of those possible futures is worse than the other. So it seems to me that we should steer away from it, rather than wrong our hands about how we don’t like the choices. Sure, you don’t like the choices. They’re the choices regardless. Model the outcomes of each possibility, decide which one you hate the least and steer towards it, because we are getting a future selected from among the possibilities. Jesus is not going to rapture us out of this.
Yeah, I’ve been having this argument a lot lately, so the sarcasm shit right past me. It’s exhausting trying to get people to understand that no, really, genocide a * 3 plus additional genocide b is worse than genocide a alone.
Yes but see, if we just sit on our hands and don’t vote we won’t have any responsibility for what follows! Only voting for someone who is less than ideal on this issue is a morally bad choice!
I totally understand the point most of them are trying to make and agree with the sentiment, but they’re fucking morons. 100% absolute jibbering idiots.
This is an ugly binary choice here because the United States electoral system is a steaming pile of horse shit. Do what I, your friendly neighborhood lefty, am doing and swallow your pride and vote for center right Joe Biden because he’s leagues better than the dementia-addled, fascist Cheeto Benito. Then take all the disgust you’ve built up by voting for and living with another neoliberal corporate shill presidency and work your ass off to make sure we don’t have to keep voting between Dumb and Dumber every fucking election.
Do it because we’ll only be gently tiptoeing to the right under a Biden presidency, so it’s less likely you’ll end up in jail for discussing the “wrong” political ideology while that orange shitstained merkin would have me in jail just for writing this were it up to him. Don’t make it up to him.
Every time I encounter the “don’t vote” brigade, my first thought is that it’s a Russian or Chinese troll trying to get Trump elected again.
My second thought, which is a bit more nuanced, is some introspection on what Biden is actually doing. He has three options with regards to Israel, none of them good.
I don’t know that Biden is doing a very good job with #3, but #1 would be a catastrophe, and #2 is what Trump wants.
This is a shitty situation in every conceivable way. Our ally, Israel, is currently being run by a corrupt and genocidal freak. There are no good answers to a situation like that beyond Israel coming to its senses and throwing Netanyahu in prison. But there are plenty of really bad answers, and Trump would be the worst.
Removed by mod
Why?
Biden is doing this - he is threatening the ICC and ICJ
Biden is not doing this. We have not stopped weapon shipments and have clearly been unable (more like unwilling) to stop or prevent Israel’s genocide
Also, Israel is not our ally. Their geopolitical interests align with Putin. Which is why they are trying to get Trump elected so that they can destroy the remnants of the “rules based international order” and begin in earnest their conquest of Greater Israel
Because Iran is a Russian ally and Russian proxy.
No, he isn’t. Where in the world are you getting the idea that he’s literally “threatening” either?
Dude, we temporarily halted shipments earlier this month to put pressure on Netanyahu. Were you sleeping?
Netanyahu’s interests may align with Putin, but only insofar as both seem hell-bent on destabilizing the region. Putin would gladly let Iran stroll right into Israel and slaughter everyone in it. Israel’s own actual interests do not remotely align with Putin’s.
Yes, but why does that mean stopping US weapons shipments to Israel would cause Iran to invade/attack/etc? Israel has a huge weapons stockpile and is still a Western ally - they just happen to be committing genocide with American funds and bombs.
https://www.ft.com/content/6700a246-e0cd-49d8-b5ef-d2379e86290f
“The administration of President Joe Biden will work with Congress on possible sanctions against the International Criminal Court after its prosecutor announced it was seeking arrest warrants for senior Israeli and Hamas officials, US secretary of state Antony Blinken said on Tuesday.”
We resumed those shipments and funds, and Israel has since crossed Biden’s red line and attacked Rafah
Netanyahu/Likud are dictators who control Israel. Until he/they are removed, their interests are Israel’s interests. Which means that Israel is a Russian asset with a stranglehold on American funds thanks to AIPAC
I’d just like to remind you folks the headline you’re debating under:
Biden/Dems sent the genocide bombs and Haley/Republicans autographed them.
I’m not sure how that improves things
US presidents are required by American law since 2008 to ensure that Israel is better armed than all its neighbours. Biden doesn’t have a real choice unless he can get a bill through both houses to stop arming Israel. I don’t think that’s even remotely realistic.
Trump would be twice as bad for Palestine. “Finish them” is an actual call to genocide.
But you don’t care for facts, you just want to blame Biden for everything that you think left wingers might not like so they’ll not vote and Trump can get in.
I would like to solve your trolley problem with multi track drifting please
That’s only worked a handful of times, long ago.
You do realize that “less than ideal” is probably an inadequate way to describe Joe funding a genocidal apartheid, right?
It’s astonishing to me how comfortable you are with fascism, provided it wears a blue jersey.
Yes. Humans are given to certainty and judgement in excess of what the evidence merits, so I have taken to understatement.
I’m not convinced that Joe Biden is fascism, though. Would you be so kind as to compare him to Umberto eco’s list, and share examples on each point? Trump seems like a much better match to that, but perhaps I have missed something.
Removed by mod
I don’t think I said that. Can you show me where I did?
I will say that you have a slice of responsibility over the future, and you’ll have to live with the consequences of whatever decision you end up making - including the one where you sit on your hands. No matter what you do, you can still complain about it, but the future will be whichever one we collectively steer to. One of those possible futures is worse than the other. So it seems to me that we should steer away from it, rather than wrong our hands about how we don’t like the choices. Sure, you don’t like the choices. They’re the choices regardless. Model the outcomes of each possibility, decide which one you hate the least and steer towards it, because we are getting a future selected from among the possibilities. Jesus is not going to rapture us out of this.
Removed by mod
Yeah, I’ve been having this argument a lot lately, so the sarcasm shit right past me. It’s exhausting trying to get people to understand that no, really, genocide a * 3 plus additional genocide b is worse than genocide a alone.