• CyberSeeker@discuss.tchncs.de
    link
    fedilink
    English
    arrow-up
    73
    ·
    6 months ago

    So the article repeats, several times, “waymo relies on remote operators”. I don’t think the author knows what “self-driving” means.

    • TropicalDingdong@lemmy.world
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      56
      ·
      edit-2
      6 months ago

      “self-driving”

      Someone else, forreal - driving

      A couple years ago, we used to joke around the shop “Of course they used AI - An intern.”

    • ladicius@lemmy.world
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      15
      ·
      6 months ago

      The author is very well aware of this dilemma, in fact that topic is the center of his article, and he is making some good points about why real autonomous driving might still take a long time until achieved.

      Besides that the cars are constantly getting around without a designated driver. For the technology and for the industry that is a huge breakthrough.

    • Bell@lemmy.world
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      6
      ·
      6 months ago

      And he forgets to mention the precise mapping required too. He also left out the terrible experiences Waymo has had with revoked permits, cars disabled by traffic cones, and multiple traffic stopping glitches where intersections were blocked for hours.

      • VirtualOdour@sh.itjust.works
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        5
        ·
        6 months ago

        Yeah but the waymo ceo doesn’t shitpost on Twitter so people here don’t get front page hyped up stories every single time things aren’t perfect

    • Rooskie91@discuss.online
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      2
      ·
      5 months ago

      I’m making a prediction right now that real self driving will eventually rely on people from impoverished countries remotely operating the cars of wealthier countries. Sort of like how AI training data is combed through.

    • Grippler@feddit.dk
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      37
      ·
      6 months ago

      Elon ripped out the LiDAR

      No he didn’t…He never even installed it in the first place.

      • phoneymouse@lemmy.world
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        34
        ·
        6 months ago

        I had to look this up, but you’re mostly right. They never really did use LiDAR. They did use other types of radar, which were removed or disabled. In any case, they (Elon) asserted that neither radar nor LiDAR was really necessary.

        However, that was mostly a couple years ago. In the past month or two they actually have begun buying up tons of LiDAR.

        Also, they were sued over FSD in court and their lawyers are now arguing that customers should’ve known that cars without LiDAR are not capable of reliable FSD.

  • Sanctus@lemmy.world
    link
    fedilink
    English
    arrow-up
    28
    ·
    6 months ago

    Yeah Waymo has been silently ticking away over here for years. On the east side they are all over the place. It will take longer to get to freeway speeds but I think Waymo’s approach is far safer. But fuck Google too

    • AdamEatsAss@lemmy.world
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      20
      ·
      6 months ago

      Jesus Fucking Christ what are you fucking stupid? Read the god damn pinned mod comment on every post on r/chessbegginers, read the god damn wiki, read the god damn info button that pops up on chess.c0m, here’s a thought just google it your god damn self. What do you think you’re the first person in fucking history to experience this “weird pawn move?” You must be fucking stupid because it was only invented back in 1561. But I’m sure you thought “oh wow I know chess.c0m is a company valued in the hundreds of millions but I’m sure me, 100 ELO shit tier chess beginner, has found a bug in their program.” It boggles my god damn mind that you just blindly post your stupid fucking questions on reddit without trying to research them first. Because you must be the first person in fucking history to ever experience a problem, and logically reddit, the source of all fucking factual information, is the only god damn place you can look for an answer. So here’s a fucking thought the next time you’re about to make a god damn post stop and google e-n p-a-s-s-a-n-t.

      • itsgoodtobeawake@lemmy.world
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        7
        ·
        6 months ago

        Are you kidding ??? What the **** are you talking about man ? You are a biggest looser i ever seen in my life ! You was doing PIPI in your pampers when i was beating players much more stronger then you! You are not proffesional, because proffesionals knew how to lose and congratulate opponents, you are like a girl crying after i beat you! Be brave, be honest to yourself and stop this trush talkings!!! Everybody know that i am very good blitz player, i can win anyone in the world in single game! And "w"esley "s"o is nobody for me, just a player who are crying every single time when loosing, ( remember what you say about Firouzja ) !!! Stop playing with my name, i deserve to have a good name during whole my chess carrier, I am Officially inviting you to OTB blitz match with the Prize fund! Both of us will invest 5000$ and winner takes it all!

        I suggest all other people who’s intrested in this situation, just take a look at my results in 2016 and 2017 Blitz World championships, and that should be enough… No need to listen for every crying babe, Tigran Petrosyan is always play Fair ! And if someone will continue Officially talk about me like that, we will meet in Court! God bless with true! True will never die ! Liers will kicked off…

  • arymandias@feddit.de
    link
    fedilink
    English
    arrow-up
    23
    ·
    6 months ago

    I’m starting to get the feeling that “X is playing chess while Y is playing checkers” is an indicator species for a terrible take.

  • splonglo@lemmy.world
    link
    fedilink
    English
    arrow-up
    22
    ·
    5 months ago

    They both suck and Waymo’s has a whole ass sensor thingie on the roof. So it’s insane that Tesla’s is even legal given that they rely entirely on cameras and fate.

  • Starkstruck@lemmy.world
    link
    fedilink
    English
    arrow-up
    22
    ·
    5 months ago

    I used to be so excited for self driving cars, but my naive younger self assumed they’d actually make sure they’re safe before putting them on public roads.

    I was wrong.

    • TheRealKuni@lemmy.world
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      19
      ·
      5 months ago

      Yuuup. Muskrat decided LiDAR was too expensive to include in every vehicle and scrapped it. Even disabled the sensors on the cars that have it.

      My vacuum has LiDAR. That man is a cheap idiot.

      • Synapse@lemmy.world
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        11
        ·
        5 months ago

        The LiDAR you have on your vacuum isn’t going to cut it as a safety relevant component onboard your car. Automotive-grade LiDAR are on another price range. Development for such sensors is quoted separately from the part price, and it costs millions of $.

        • TheRealKuni@lemmy.world
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          10
          ·
          5 months ago

          The LiDAR you have on your vacuum isn’t going to cut it as a safety relevant component onboard your car. Automotive-grade LiDAR are on another price range. Development for such sensors is quoted separately from the part price, and it costs millions of $.

          Obviously, but my Ford Escape PHEV also has LiDAR and, despite being the highest trim level, cost FAR less than a Tesla. It doesn’t do FSD, obviously, but it still has LiDAR. And radar. And will do level 2 self driving enough that if I’m driving in traffic I’m more managing the car than driving it.

          There is zero good excuse for not including LiDAR in Teslas.

          • Cethin@lemmy.zip
            link
            fedilink
            English
            arrow-up
            8
            ·
            5 months ago

            There is a reason. It’s just not a good one. It’s profit.

            I don’t believe Tesla ever intended on having full self driving. That’s just an idea Musk sold people to boost confidence in the company. The promise sold vehicles and boosted stock value, making Musk a shit load of money.

            What difference would it make if they were fully devoted to FSD with the best technology they could get? It still wouldn’t work perfectly and wouldn’t be allowed alone everywhere probably, and they would have made less profit during that period. In what time frame would it actually pay back?

          • Synapse@lemmy.world
            link
            fedilink
            English
            arrow-up
            3
            ·
            5 months ago

            I can’t seem to find information about the Ford Escape having a LiDAR, it’s not on the spec. Sheet on Ford’s website and in the news it’s only about prototypes.

            I am not saying Teslas should or shouldn’t have LiDARs. I am just curious. I only know about Audi, Mercedes, Honda and Hyundai currently selling cars with LiDAR used for ADAS. They might be more Chinese OEMs selling cars with LiDARs, buy Ford, it surprises me.

            • TheRealKuni@lemmy.world
              link
              fedilink
              English
              arrow-up
              1
              ·
              edit-2
              5 months ago

              I may be wrong then. There are a bunch of sensors above the windshield behind the rearview mirror, it could be that LiDAR isn’t one of them.

      • machinin@lemmy.world
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        3
        ·
        edit-2
        5 months ago

        When your compensation is based on profit per car, you make strange decisions like removing winker stalks and quality control.

    • Everythingispenguins@lemmy.world
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      3
      ·
      5 months ago

      Yes they sure did. I don’t believe any Tesla ever shipped with Lidar, maybe some did. The big thing that they removed/disabled was the radar. They did this because the radar and visual cameras would disagree about where things were. So instead of spending more R&D time to get it right. They just removed the radar and called it solved.

  • antlion@lemmy.dbzer0.com
    link
    fedilink
    English
    arrow-up
    15
    ·
    6 months ago

    Chess is a very complex rules game, while Checkers is quite simple. Waymo has a complex approach to self driving:

    • Expensive suite of sensors
    • High resolution maps of operating areas
    • Remote operators standing by

    While Teslas approach is simple:

    • Capture a bazillion miles of camera footage, feed into AI, profit?
    • Unpaid volunteers teach the AI safe driving
    • Car has only a basic map for routing, the rest is inferred in real time from cameras

    Waymo’s successful approach scales linearly. They have to high-res map every city they want to operate in, and they can gradually bring down the cost of the sensors. They will require fewer remote operator interactions over time.

    Teslas success is more difficult, but it scales exponentially. They already produce vehicles at scale and full control over all the equipment on board. The existing fleet would be able to participate as well. If they succeed, they may want to offer buy-backs for customers who didnt buy FSD - the cars would be worth more to Tesla than the owner.

    In both checkers and chess, the player gains super powers for reaching the other side of the board. Time will tell who reaches the other side of the board first. They are playing different games on the same board. Okay that’s fair.

      • antlion@lemmy.dbzer0.com
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        2
        ·
        5 months ago

        Radar and Lidar also get a lot of noise from heavy rain or snow. Fog can be just as bad. Some conditions just aren’t safe to drive in, regardless of who’s driving. I don’t think either of them are trying to design a system for those conditions.

        On a personal note, I have no interest in getting a ride in a self driving car. I do have an interest in an empty car that can drive itself. Drop myself off at the airport, valet parking downtown, easier to share one car per household, river shuttling, through hike shuttling - I would use it a lot. I understand the more profitable goal is taxi services, but I don’t want that. So in my narrow use case, I hope Tesla succeeds since that approach can be used on personal vehicles anywhere while Waymo is strictly city taxis, which I don’t use.

        • postmateDumbass@lemmy.world
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          1
          ·
          5 months ago

          The USS they took out of Teslas were at least a second measurement system.

          Wavelengths with decent water transmitability exist.

          • antlion@lemmy.dbzer0.com
            link
            fedilink
            English
            arrow-up
            1
            ·
            5 months ago

            Sound and light don’t propagate well through changes in media. The reason rainbows exist is because light does not travel in a straight line through drops of water, across the full spectrum. Radar is used to sense how hard it’s raining so it obviously gets returns from rain (and through it). But it will depend on the processing they do from the sensors. But just so we’re clear, cameras also work in the rain and snow. I don’t think one is clearly better than others.

  • fpslem@lemmy.world
    link
    fedilink
    English
    arrow-up
    15
    ·
    6 months ago

    Both are risking the lives and safety of the non-consenting public as they beta test 2-ton vehicles on public streets. Damn them both.

    • eltrain123@lemmy.world
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      33
      ·
      6 months ago

      They may not be perfect yet, but if their track record is safer than a human driver they aren’t any worse than any of the other assholes on the road.

      Millions of human drivers are risking the lives and safety of the non-consenting public, too, but we aren’t advocating for stronger driving tests to keep bad drivers off the road. We’re just bitching about someone else trying to solve the problem because it isn’t a perfect solution on day 1.

      • lemmyvore@feddit.nl
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        7
        ·
        6 months ago

        If their track record is better it’s because it’s a record at a much lower scale, under more controlled conditions, and kept by companies with a vested interest in it appearing good. If Boeing can hide flaws in flying vehicles carrying hundreds of people per trip I think these companies can hide flaws in cars.

        we aren’t advocating for stronger driving tests

        Why aren’t you? Wouldn’t that be the most logical answer?

        My country has had a very bad traffic safety record, among the worst in the EU, and that was one of the things we used to improve things, along with harsher consequences.

        There’s also another solution, reducing people’s need to drive. Public transportation could be improved by a fraction of the money that goes into these self-driving endeavors.

        Just adding “AI” to something may look cool and even make sense at small scale but ultimately completely fail in real life. “Sometimes knives kill people, let’s put AI in knives that will retract the blade instead of cutting someone”. Does that sound plausible too?

      • NaibofTabr@infosec.pub
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        6
        ·
        6 months ago

        Their track record isn’t safer than a human driver… because their system is a mechanical turk.

    • filister@lemmy.world
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      10
      ·
      6 months ago

      I wonder what you then think about people who drive after heavily drinking or taking drugs. To be honest, I have more faith in technology than in humans.

      Not to mention that self driving can probably solve some other problems too, like traffic jams caused by erratic driving behavior of humans, etc.

      If you have vehicle to vehicle communication, it is possible to adapt the speed of all the vehicles on the street to avoid them being stuck in a traffic jam.

      • FireRetardant@lemmy.world
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        3
        ·
        6 months ago

        Driving while inebriated is illegal, self driving is not.

        Traffics jams and erreactic behaviour could be fixed if everyone is in a self driving car, but at that point it woild be far more energy effecient, environmentally friendly and cheaper for society to build electrified transit instead.

        If you prioritize the street so that only self driving cars are on it and they need wireless communications to function, how do other road users like cyclists and pedeatrians safely use the street?

        Self driving cars are not here to make your life better, they are here to make a handful of people rich.

        • filister@lemmy.world
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          3
          ·
          6 months ago

          I tend to disagree here. For example if you have vehicle to vehicle standardized communications, vehicles can communicate between themselves the location of cyclists, some road obstacles, etc. generally making the roads safer and reducing the number of fatalities.

          Yes, they will make some people more rich, but is this a legitimate reason to obstruct technological advancements? I am sure people were thinking the same way at the cusp of electrification, or automation of some factories, where machines were augmenting the human labor and in the process making those people redundant.

          If we think the same way we should never abandon coal power plants and mines because miners might lose their job, right?

          • FireRetardant@lemmy.world
            link
            fedilink
            English
            arrow-up
            3
            ·
            6 months ago

            There are greener, more energy effecient and more socially fair ways to get the same results than selling everybody a high tech steel box.

            • ShepherdPie@midwest.social
              link
              fedilink
              English
              arrow-up
              1
              ·
              6 months ago

              What do those options matter if nobody is developing them and they only work in dense cities? You might as well be arguing for Star Trek-like transporter technology here.

  • GenEcon@lemm.ee
    link
    fedilink
    English
    arrow-up
    13
    ·
    6 months ago

    And still Mercedes is the car company with the highest autonomy level of any car manufacturer. And no one talks about that.

    • ShepherdPie@midwest.social
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      3
      ·
      6 months ago

      Because it’s insanely restrictive and can’t be used by most people or in most situations. It’s little more than a marketing ploy.

  • misanthropy@lemm.ee
    link
    fedilink
    English
    arrow-up
    8
    ·
    6 months ago

    I just watched a video of one of these going down the wrong side of the road yesterday