• xor@infosec.pub
    link
    fedilink
    English
    arrow-up
    51
    ·
    7 months ago

    the exact same argument is used to justify racism…
    misandry is no better than misogyny

    • thefactthat@lemmy.world
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      48
      ·
      edit-2
      7 months ago

      I’m sorry, what even is this argument?? The commenter above you is saying that women have enough proven experience of men being shitty to have to prepare for it in every interaction. Even if they know that it’s ‘not all men’ it’s enough that they have to assume it could be any single one.

      The only way this could be comparable to racism is if people had legitimate reasons to mistrust other races, which is not the case. Racism is the result of exaggerated stories and mistrust being created about a community with whom the racist generally has no connection.

      Most of the time women being wary of men doesn’t lead to misandry, it just leads to world-weariness and guardedness around men until we know we can trust them. But even if it did, misandry and misogyny are not equivalent. Misogyny is a prejudice which has been embedded in society for millennia and which has only begun to be deconstructed in the last century. Misandry is a response to this condition, but it is not structural, it’s the position held by a handful of women exhausted by their shitty experiences with shitty men.

      It’s honestly a wonder that more women don’t viscerally hate every man in existence, and men should be thankful that we continue to go out and put ourselves out there despite the plethora of bad and downright dangerous things we’ve experienced. Knowing that men can do awful things and preparing for that possibility is just a survival tactic for remaining in the world.

      • xor@infosec.pub
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        1
        ·
        6 months ago

        i didn’t say misandry is equivalent to racism, i said the exact same argument is used to justify racism.
        but there’s definitely a lot of overlap between prejudice based upon sex/gender vs prejudice based upon perceived race.

        and rape culture isn’t really a thing, it’s not a culture… it’s a problem but that’s the wrong word.
        there’s like, chinese culture and such… there’s no, like, People of the Rape… misogyny is an aspect of many cultures, but it’s not the culture itself and typically rape is extremely prohibited… and had the death penalty in most cultures throughout history…

        misandry is an understandable response but, ultimately it’s not leading towards any solution…

        • starman2112@sh.itjust.works
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          2
          ·
          6 months ago

          People use arguments to justify everything. Sometimes they’re right, sometimes they’re wrong. This is a stupid point.

          and rape culture isn’t really a thing, it’s not a culture… it’s a problem but that’s the wrong word.

          If you can’t be bothered to so much as type “what is rape culture” into google, I’m done talking to you

          • xor@infosec.pub
            link
            fedilink
            English
            arrow-up
            1
            ·
            6 months ago

            let me just google that real quick:
            oh wow! i had noooo idea what you meant by that until i googled using a whole sentence instead of keywords like an idiot… wow, never heard that term before you used…

            yeah i know what is meant by it, and it’s a stupid term…
            car culture is a culture around cars,
            chinese culture is a culture around a people…
            there is no culture around raping…
            in most cultures, rape is seen as pretty bad.
            “rape culture” is a misnomer, it’s a stupid term. It is an invalid term no matter how many websites define it.

            People use arguments to justify everything. Sometimes they’re right, sometimes they’re wrong.

            and this may be the dumbest string of words i’ve ever seen put together.
            my point isn’t that they are both arguments, it’s that it’s the EXACT SAME argument, only substituting gender for race… and as such, equally as wrong.

            but, i do agree that it’s pointless trying to talk to someone like you

            • starman2112@sh.itjust.works
              link
              fedilink
              English
              arrow-up
              2
              ·
              edit-2
              6 months ago

              in most cultures, rape is seen as pretty bad.

              Yes, literally everyone agrees that rape is bad. The problem is that in our culture, we have a bad habit of rationalizing what we do as not really rape. How many times have you heard someone ask what a woman was wearing, or why she was walking home at night instead of driving, or why she was alone at a bar, or why she didn’t fight back, or why she didn’t report sexual violence as soon as it happened? Why does nearly every woman have at least one experience with sexual violence? Why did we elect a guy who openly admitted to sexual assault as president? It’s almost like we have a culture around enabling and forgiving rape, in large part by rationalizing it as “not really” rape. I wonder if there’s a word for a culture that enables sexual violence.

              • xor@infosec.pub
                link
                fedilink
                English
                arrow-up
                1
                ·
                edit-2
                6 months ago

                How many times have you heard someone ask what a woman was wearing,

                never

                or why she was walking home at night instead of driving,

                never

                or why she was alone at a bar, or why she didn’t fight back, or why she didn’t report sexual violence as soon as it happened?

                never, this is 2024 and all your points are from 1970…

                Why does nearly every woman have at least one experience with sexual violence?

                also not true

                Why did we elect a guy who openly admitted to sexual assault as president?

                most of us didn’t elect him, most of the country was outraged by this, and although he has sexually assaulted women for real, the way he said it was framed as joking… and a lot of people accepted it as just a joke (it turned out he was actually bragging…)

                It’s almost like we have a culture around enabling and forgiving rape, in large part by rationalizing it as “not really” rape.

                except it’s not. And even if all your points weren’t insane distortions, it’s still not a culture around rape, it has been a terrible aspect of our culture in the past, but we’ve improved drastically, and continue to improve.

                trying to say it’s “rape culture” is intellectually lazy and actually destructive in that it hamstrings any attempt at reasonable discussion… so essentially, you’re enabling rape by trying to make it about “all men” and redefining all culture as “rape culture”…

                • starman2112@sh.itjust.works
                  link
                  fedilink
                  English
                  arrow-up
                  1
                  ·
                  6 months ago

                  the way he said it was framed as joking… and a lot of people accepted it as just a joke (it turned out he was actually bragging…)

                  YOU HAVE JUST DESCRIBED RAPE CULTURE.

                  • xor@infosec.pub
                    link
                    fedilink
                    English
                    arrow-up
                    1
                    ·
                    6 months ago

                    writing in all capital letters does not make a coherent argument.
                    in fact, the exact opposite.
                    btw, he was joking that as a celebrity, all women are automatically consenting to his gropes… not that as a celebrity he can sexually assault women…
                    you have to be famous to grope someone

                    I DID NOT JUST DESCRIBE RAPE CULTURE YOU MORON

    • Dry_Monk@lemmy.world
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      9
      ·
      7 months ago

      …sure, I guess? An argument can be repurposed to try and make a lot of different points. Here’s the thing though…

      A logical argument is considered valid if its conclusion follows necessarily from its premises, meaning that if the premises are true, the conclusion must also be true. However, an argument can be valid but not necessarily true (like the argument you’re suggesting). This is because validity only concerns the form of the argument, not the truth of the premises or the conclusion.

      Here are some examples of valid but not necessarily true arguments:

      Modus ponens: If it’s raining, then the streets will be wet. It is raining. Therefore, the streets will be wet. This argument is valid because it follows the form of a valid argument, but it may not be true if the streets are not wet for some other reason.

      Modus tollens: If it is not raining, then the streets will not be wet. The streets are not wet. Therefore, it is not raining. This argument is valid because it follows the form of a valid argument, but it may not be true if the streets are not wet for some other reason.

      Hypothetical syllogism: If it is raining, then the streets will be wet. If the streets are wet, then the roads are slippery. Therefore, if it is raining, then the roads are slippery. This argument is valid because it follows the form of a valid argument, but it may not be true if the roads are not slippery for some other reason.

      In each of these examples, the argument is valid because it follows a valid logical form, but it may not be true because the premises or conclusion may not be true.

      Now think about the “enough men” argument. It’s not translatable to misogyny and racism because the context (the premises) is vastly different for people who don’t identify as men, and for people who are not white, straight, or really any other centered group (these things vary a lot depending on the specific culture you’re looking at and the intersectional dynamics that exist). Not enough women are violent towards men (though this does happen, and it is also bad) for men to have a realistic need to protect themselves in as many interactions.

      Using the argument out of specific context, without true premises, nearly guarantees that the argument will no longer be true, while still being logically valid.

    • starman2112@sh.itjust.works
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      2
      ·
      6 months ago

      Lemme try again. The same argument is not used (at least, not legitimately) to justify racism, because you do not have to actively take precautions to defend yourself from people of other races.

      • xor@infosec.pub
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        1
        ·
        6 months ago

        once you’ve screamed at me in all caps and called me names, nah… i’m done talking to you