Ok, I’ll engage you on this one, your position at least seems internally consistent.
Let’s play out this example - your 2 year old niece is sick, and so are you. You recently found out that she even exists - you didn’t know you had a sister until CPS told you she’s your responsibility.
An action that risks your life could possibly save her… Let’s say a liver transplant. It has to be you, you’re her only living family member. And because of that, you’ll also be responsible for her - you can put her up for adoption when this is all over, but you’re still on the hook for the medical bills whether this works or not.
She’s guaranteed to die if you don’t give her the transplant, and you would almost certainly recover quickly on your own.
If you go through with the transplant, she has a slim chance to live, and an even slimmer one to have a decent quality of life.
But in your current state, the transplant is very risky - at best you’ll see a lengthy and expensive recovery, after missing months of work you’ll be tens of thousands of dollars in debt. Complications could see you paralyzed or in lifelong pain, and it’s very possible both of you die on the table - maybe even likely.
The doctors are telling you it’s a terrible idea to go through with this, that the risk is unacceptable and it would be a mercy to just let her pass, but they’re obligated to go through with it if you insist.
Now, no one is stopping you from going through with it - if you want to put your life on the line for another, that’s your decision to make. You’re her guardian now, so it’s your decision if she should have to go through the pain for the chance at life, no matter how small.
That’s all well and good - I’ve seen enough to know that death is often a mercy, but if you believe otherwise there’s not much to say
Now, here’s my question - should the government be able to force you to attempt the transplant?
Some of these details might seem weird, but I was trying to stick the metaphor as close as possible to a very real scenario with a dangerous pregnancy. The only difference is - the doctor is performing an action here, but withholding one with the pregnancy.
You’re not though - pregnancy is not a lack of action. It’s an enormous commitment, especially when it’s atypical. It can even be a practically guaranteed death sentence - if the fetus implants in the fallopian tubes, it’s already not viable - at best you’re waiting for the fetus to grow big enough to rupture them, and hoping the bleed that causes doesn’t do too much damage before you can get help.
Not to mention if a fetus dies in the womb after it gets to a certain size, it rots and leads to sepsis - unclear laws and harsh punishments have already led to situations where doctors refused care for both of these life threatening cases, and in both these cases the odds aren’t slim, they’re none. In the second the fetus was already gone… Sometimes when they induce labor the fetus isn’t even in one piece… It’s pretty grisly
I don’t agree with your belief that a potential life is the same as a life, but let’s set that aside - I can respect that as a belief
So… My root question to you is - Should you be able to force someone to risk their own for someone else?
If so, how sure do you have to be that the other person will die no matter what you do before you’re released from the compulsion to put your own health on the line?
There’s always at least some risk of pregnancy turning fatal for the mother. How much danger do you have to be in for the math to check out?
And also, to what point should politicians with little understanding of medicine be able to deny you care?
Let’s play out this example - your 2 year old niece is sick, and so are you.
My actions didn’t bring her into this world. That’s a huge difference.
But in your current state, the transplant is very risky
I agree there should always be exceptions for cases like these.
I don’t agree with your belief that a potential life is the same as a life, but let’s set that aside - I can respect that as a belief
You see it as a potential life, I see it as a whole life. I thank you for understanding that it’s reasonable one might have this believe.
Should you be able to force someone to risk their own for someone else?
See my response above.
There’s always at least some risk of pregnancy turning fatal for the mother. How much danger do you have to be in for the math to check out?
In law there’s a lot of ‘reasonable’ language - would a reasonable person think this is a likely event. In general, pregnancies aren’t life risking to mothers.
And also, to what point should politicians with little understanding of medicine be able to deny you care?
If I brought in my twin brother to a doctors office and said ‘hey, this guy is really making me sick, can you kill him for me?’ I think a reasonable law maker can determine whether that’s right or wrong. To some people, there’s no difference between the life of you and I, and a fetus.
You saying that you don’t bring your niece into this world sounds a lot like the responsibility argument, aka “you had sex and got pregnancy and this is your consequence or punishment”. You really seemed to side step the entire analogy by saying you aren’t the parent. Neither exceptions nor saying that you believe every fetus is the same as a fully formed human answer the question.
How would you feel and react if the government forced you until a dangerous medical procedure to potentially save the life of someone else? Please, don’t side step again. Please, don’t give me “it’s not my fault they’re here, they had sex, therefore they have to do it”. Please, don’t give me “but I think the fetus has rights too”. How would you feel?
“you had sex and got pregnancy and this is your consequence or punishment”
If an individual does the only action that would cause a human life to be created, I don’t think they get to kill that being just because it’s inconvenient. It’s about preserving a human life, not about punishment.
You really seemed to side step the entire analogy by saying you aren’t the parent.
I showed how your hypothetical and where it doesn’t apply. If you’d like to use a different hypothetical, I’m fine with that. Why not use my child? If I have a 1 day old child, is it my responsibility to make sure my baby is fed and doesn’t die of starvation?
How would you feel and react if the government forced you until a dangerous medical procedure to potentially save the life of someone else?
If that’s the only information about the situation that I have, I wouldn’t like it.
If you instead word the same exact situation like ‘do you have a responsibility to your child to keep them alive’ I would say yes.
If that child, really fetus, is inside your body, no, I don’t think you have to continue letting the fetus use your body. Because that’s what it is. No one would force a woman to breastfeed. No one would say you legally have to use your boobs no matter what to feed this child. That’s what being pregnant is.
And no, you are continually side stepping and not telling me how you’d feel. How would you feel?
If that child, really fetus, is inside your body, no, I don’t think you have to continue letting the fetus use your body. Because that’s what it is. No one would force a woman to breastfeed. No one would say you legally have to use your boobs no matter what to feed this child. That’s what being pregnant is.
You’re talking about me avoiding questions, which I answered already, but you ignored mine: If I have a 1 day old child, is it my responsibility to make sure my baby is fed and doesn’t die of starvation?
And no, you are continually side stepping and not telling me how you’d feel. How would you feel?
I answered that above, if you want me to expand on it I can, but I did answer it. I said:
If that’s the only information about the situation that I have, I wouldn’t like it. If you instead word the same exact situation like ‘do you have a responsibility to your child to keep them alive’ I would say yes.
Not one of your sentences began with “I would feel”, contained the word “feeling”, or mentioned any emotion. I asked how would you feel.
Yes, you do have a responsibility to feed and care for a child. Do you have a responsibility to use your body to do so? No. Do we have laws requiring women to breastfeed? No. Are people arguing for such laws? No. That’s the equivalency of pregnancy. Not are you required to keep your kid alive. But are you required to use your body to do so. Everyone would think it’s a violation of bodily autonomy to require breastfeeding. Requiring continuation of pregnancy is no difference.
Ok, I’ll engage you on this one, your position at least seems internally consistent.
Let’s play out this example - your 2 year old niece is sick, and so are you. You recently found out that she even exists - you didn’t know you had a sister until CPS told you she’s your responsibility.
An action that risks your life could possibly save her… Let’s say a liver transplant. It has to be you, you’re her only living family member. And because of that, you’ll also be responsible for her - you can put her up for adoption when this is all over, but you’re still on the hook for the medical bills whether this works or not.
She’s guaranteed to die if you don’t give her the transplant, and you would almost certainly recover quickly on your own.
If you go through with the transplant, she has a slim chance to live, and an even slimmer one to have a decent quality of life.
But in your current state, the transplant is very risky - at best you’ll see a lengthy and expensive recovery, after missing months of work you’ll be tens of thousands of dollars in debt. Complications could see you paralyzed or in lifelong pain, and it’s very possible both of you die on the table - maybe even likely.
The doctors are telling you it’s a terrible idea to go through with this, that the risk is unacceptable and it would be a mercy to just let her pass, but they’re obligated to go through with it if you insist.
Now, no one is stopping you from going through with it - if you want to put your life on the line for another, that’s your decision to make. You’re her guardian now, so it’s your decision if she should have to go through the pain for the chance at life, no matter how small.
That’s all well and good - I’ve seen enough to know that death is often a mercy, but if you believe otherwise there’s not much to say
Now, here’s my question - should the government be able to force you to attempt the transplant?
Some of these details might seem weird, but I was trying to stick the metaphor as close as possible to a very real scenario with a dangerous pregnancy. The only difference is - the doctor is performing an action here, but withholding one with the pregnancy.
You’re not though - pregnancy is not a lack of action. It’s an enormous commitment, especially when it’s atypical. It can even be a practically guaranteed death sentence - if the fetus implants in the fallopian tubes, it’s already not viable - at best you’re waiting for the fetus to grow big enough to rupture them, and hoping the bleed that causes doesn’t do too much damage before you can get help.
Not to mention if a fetus dies in the womb after it gets to a certain size, it rots and leads to sepsis - unclear laws and harsh punishments have already led to situations where doctors refused care for both of these life threatening cases, and in both these cases the odds aren’t slim, they’re none. In the second the fetus was already gone… Sometimes when they induce labor the fetus isn’t even in one piece… It’s pretty grisly
I don’t agree with your belief that a potential life is the same as a life, but let’s set that aside - I can respect that as a belief
So… My root question to you is - Should you be able to force someone to risk their own for someone else?
If so, how sure do you have to be that the other person will die no matter what you do before you’re released from the compulsion to put your own health on the line?
There’s always at least some risk of pregnancy turning fatal for the mother. How much danger do you have to be in for the math to check out?
And also, to what point should politicians with little understanding of medicine be able to deny you care?
My actions didn’t bring her into this world. That’s a huge difference.
I agree there should always be exceptions for cases like these.
You see it as a potential life, I see it as a whole life. I thank you for understanding that it’s reasonable one might have this believe.
See my response above.
In law there’s a lot of ‘reasonable’ language - would a reasonable person think this is a likely event. In general, pregnancies aren’t life risking to mothers.
If I brought in my twin brother to a doctors office and said ‘hey, this guy is really making me sick, can you kill him for me?’ I think a reasonable law maker can determine whether that’s right or wrong. To some people, there’s no difference between the life of you and I, and a fetus.
You saying that you don’t bring your niece into this world sounds a lot like the responsibility argument, aka “you had sex and got pregnancy and this is your consequence or punishment”. You really seemed to side step the entire analogy by saying you aren’t the parent. Neither exceptions nor saying that you believe every fetus is the same as a fully formed human answer the question.
How would you feel and react if the government forced you until a dangerous medical procedure to potentially save the life of someone else? Please, don’t side step again. Please, don’t give me “it’s not my fault they’re here, they had sex, therefore they have to do it”. Please, don’t give me “but I think the fetus has rights too”. How would you feel?
If an individual does the only action that would cause a human life to be created, I don’t think they get to kill that being just because it’s inconvenient. It’s about preserving a human life, not about punishment.
I showed how your hypothetical and where it doesn’t apply. If you’d like to use a different hypothetical, I’m fine with that. Why not use my child? If I have a 1 day old child, is it my responsibility to make sure my baby is fed and doesn’t die of starvation?
If that’s the only information about the situation that I have, I wouldn’t like it.
If you instead word the same exact situation like ‘do you have a responsibility to your child to keep them alive’ I would say yes.
If that child, really fetus, is inside your body, no, I don’t think you have to continue letting the fetus use your body. Because that’s what it is. No one would force a woman to breastfeed. No one would say you legally have to use your boobs no matter what to feed this child. That’s what being pregnant is.
And no, you are continually side stepping and not telling me how you’d feel. How would you feel?
You’re talking about me avoiding questions, which I answered already, but you ignored mine: If I have a 1 day old child, is it my responsibility to make sure my baby is fed and doesn’t die of starvation?
I answered that above, if you want me to expand on it I can, but I did answer it. I said:
If that’s the only information about the situation that I have, I wouldn’t like it. If you instead word the same exact situation like ‘do you have a responsibility to your child to keep them alive’ I would say yes.
Not one of your sentences began with “I would feel”, contained the word “feeling”, or mentioned any emotion. I asked how would you feel.
Yes, you do have a responsibility to feed and care for a child. Do you have a responsibility to use your body to do so? No. Do we have laws requiring women to breastfeed? No. Are people arguing for such laws? No. That’s the equivalency of pregnancy. Not are you required to keep your kid alive. But are you required to use your body to do so. Everyone would think it’s a violation of bodily autonomy to require breastfeeding. Requiring continuation of pregnancy is no difference.
I would feel like “I wouldn’t like it.”
Agreed.
Cool. You just don’t have to use your body. I’m glad we agree.