Very, very sick of the no campaign brigading every discussion with terrible arguments in bad faith.
I have yet to encounter a legal expert, or for that matter, an Indigenous Australian who is accepted by their community, who is opposed. Similarly, the law is my degree. I’ve spent five years of my life studying it, and although I’m not a graduate yet (two units to go), I’d think I’d know more about this shit than Joe from bumfuck nowhere on Facebook.
There is no case for a no vote. None whatsoever. The change would not grant special rights to Indigenous Australians. It has been repeatedly explained by both lawyers and politicians. You can read the change yourself. It has to be a constitutional change, because that protects it from being outright removed by successive governments, which is the very thing that happened to the previous body that performed this role. By definition, it is not racist, as racism refers to negative treatment on the basis of race or ethnic background, and not differing treatment. This is one of three steps proposed by Indigenous Australians towards reconciliation, and isn’t the endpoint. If it fails, it will be the endpoint.
When the colonisers arrived, Indigenous Australians outnumbered colonisers. Now, they make up just 2.5% of the population. We are driving them to extinction. If this fails, by the time we get around to trying again, it is likely the genocide will have all but been completed.
Ethically and morally, a yes vote is the only choice. Legally, it is the best choice for change.
One thing that aggravates my parents (definite No voters) is that there is no acknowledgement from the Yes campaign of the internal failures of previous bodies like ATSIC. It’s fair to state that the government dismantled bodies like ATSIC, but the Yes campaign seem to be deliberately hiding or ignoring the fraud, corruption, ineffectiveness, and nepotism that existed in these organisations.
One can read all about the structural problems, lack of accountability, and failure to deliver results that were detailed in the parliamentary findings on ATSIC. https://www.aph.gov.au/Parliamentary_Business/Committees/Senate/Former_Committees/indigenousaffairs/report/final/c02
If you have library access, the 2003 report, In the Hand of the Regions, is also worth a read: https://www.jstor.org/stable/26479564
There were also criminal investigations launched into both the Chief of ATSIC, Geoff Clark, and the deputy chairman, “Sugar” Ray Robinson.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11071533/Geoff-Clark-ex-ATSIC-chief-facing-2million-fraud-charges-threatens-senator-Jacinta-Price.html
https://www.smh.com.au/national/former-atsic-leader-sugar-ray-in-court-20060118-gdmsov.htmlFor No voters like my parents, they question why we should force a similar organisation into the Constitution, particularly when there were so many systemic (and even criminal) problems with ATSIC.
In all honesty, having read those same reports in the past (does it make me a weirdo that I enjoy reading this kind of thing?) I note that many of the individuals involved in this corruption were installed by LNP governments (tempted to say “of future past,” because that just sounds fun). I smell false flag on their part, as they have been known to install cronies into organisations they’re opposed to so they can tear it down and claim they’re ‘fixing’ them
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Yes, I’m sure that’s their defining motivator…
It’s not at all that they’re ignorant, rusted on, bigots
Perhaps, but calling them names and hurling insults is never going to change their mind. It may even embolden their position because name-calling usually means that you don’t have a good response to their argument.
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I don’t really care to change the minds of those people, better to continue harassing and marginalising them. They get stroppy, start to post on social media, get shit canned/dumped/ostracised by friends/colleagues. It’s boring work but it’s worth it, I assume anyway
The corruption happened because they were given a budget with no oversight. The Voice is only an advisory body with no budget to control.
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I don’t know anything about it but perhaps ATSIC was responsible for issuing funding to other bodies, whereas the budget for voice will just be their internal expenses.
I’d honestly ask them what the fuck that has to do with enshrining Indigenous representation in parliament tbh.
Oh no a govt body was corrupt!!! Do they want to remove the ability for all Australians to vote because of robodebt? Because that makes as much fcking sense.
Agreed. One of my family members worked for ATSIC from the beginning, wanting to do good. They resigned in disgust at the corruption before it was exposed and torn down. It’s an ugly bit of history that is being ignored.
RIKSY
UNKOWN
DIVISIVE
PERMANENTYou can tell you should be worried because they use scary words and CAPITAL LETTERS. I also love how they put “it opens the door to activists” like it’s a bad thing. Personally I wouldn’t mind if Australia Day were replaced with a Treaty Day if that came to pass. It’s just an excuse to get absolutely pissed around a barbie anyway.
I’ll be voting Yes.
For those wanting more clarity, what do you mean? We have been given the proposed alteration to the constitution:
In recognition of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples as the First Peoples of Australia: 1.There shall be a body, to be called the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Voice; 2.The Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Voice may make representations to the Parliament and the Executive Government of the Commonwealth on matters relating to Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples; 3.The Parliament shall, subject to this Constitution, have power to make laws with respect to matters relating to the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Voice, including its composition, functions, powers and procedures.
Wanting more clarity is just a case of people trying to find a reason to vote no.
Not necessarily, I’m grateful for more clarity. Voting yes without any clarity is no better than voting no without any clarity.
I have yet to see a single rational reason to vote no. I just don’t get it. How could you possibly be against consulting people before you make decisions that affect those people?
Do the No voters think that the government shouldn’t listen to the AMA when making health policy? That they shouldn’t listen to teachers and principals when they make education policy?
I think some of the “No” reasons are valid questions to ask, so simply brushing them off as irrational is not going to win over anyone sitting on the fence. When I have spoken with family & friends, some of their uncertainty and concerns can be found amongst the ten No arguments.
For example, the question of inequitable representation (point #3 of the No arguments) is a fair one. Shouldn’t all Australians, regardless of their gender, race, or ancestry be represented equally in the Constitution?
In 1962, all Indigenous Australians were given the fair right to vote, giving them the same level of voice and representation as that of any Australian citizen. This resolved the issue of equal voting rights, which allows all Australians to have their voice equally represented in parliament. The Voice would now add an additional representation above what voting provides to the average Australian and it will be mandated in the Constitution.
Which personal factors determine if one can be awarded this additional amount of representation? Do you have to prove you are Indigenous by way of a blood test, a written exam, a form of ID, or just by stating that you identify as an Indigenous Australian? I even know of some people who have claimed benefits of Indigenous Australians (e.g. scholarships) when they themselves were Pacific Islander. How pure does your bloodline need to be in order to receive additional representation?Your argument is driven by racism. The same old tired racist arguments that have been floating around since time immemorial.
“People are just claiming they are Aboriginal to get government handouts”
“They’re not really asylum seekers they are economic migrants looking for government handouts”
“They are going to create a new level of government so they can claim government handouts”
They are not getting inequitable representation. They are effectively being given a constitutionally recognised lobby group. The Government of the day will be able to completely ignore them like they ignore climate scientists and environmentalists.
Ok yes. “But then why does it need to be in the constitution” because the Coalition disbanded every non constitutionally recognised group that has ever been created.
The Government of the day will be able to completely ignore them like they ignore climate scientists and environmentalists.
This is how it is supposed to be. They’re ignored, but so is everyone else. We all wish that the government would only listen and act on our preferences and beliefs, but the system is designed so that every Australian citizen receives one vote to elect their preferred representative and we must engage with that elected representative to guide parliament.
There are always going to be lobbyists, special groups, or even corruption that interfere with this system, but these are issues that can be managed by legislation and government processes. Indigenous Australians already have The National Indigenous Australians Agency (NIAA), employing 1,023 full time staff and a budget of $285M each year specifically for the purpose to “lead and influence change across government to ensure Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples have a say in the decisions that affect them.”Regardless of race or ancestry, let’s all be ignored by government equally.
You’re making a bad faith argument here. No one who can count to ten(do you have fingers?) could make that argument and expect to be taken seriously.
So lame when legitimate points are dismissed as ‘racism’. It is absolutely possible to make these arguments, not all of which I even agree with, or present these issues, without having a racist intent.
I was hoping the level of discourse would be better here, sadly it’s just /r/Australia2
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I have absolutely no problem with the traditional indigenous owners of the land, who have never ceded sovereignty, having a special status in the constitution.
Because why the hell not?
Obtuse racist bullshit, if all you have is bad faith LNP propaganda then you’re probably just a bigot
Do the No voters think that the government shouldn’t listen to the AMA when making health policy? That they shouldn’t listen to teachers and principals when they make education policy?
They fall mostly into the LNP camp, and given their track record… yes, that is exactly what they think.
I’ll be voting yes, if for no other reason than to encourage more referendums.
I think its insane that we need to vote people in to vote for us, who are statistically more likely to be psychopaths. The majority of Australians think weed should be legal, but it still isn’t.
Giving people the power to vote on specific issues bypasses the bureaucratic bullshit.
“Oh no, it might open the door to more changes to the constitution” GOOD
California has a proposition voting thing. It sounds like a good idea but it has caused them problems. A lot of it is in the wording of the proposition and omitting any negative consequences. For example, people might vote for less property taxes without realising that means less money to fund schools etc. Everything is a trade off and it’s hard to convey that to the general population.
Absolutely. Foremost, the governments job is to keep everything ticking along. My issue is with the politicians who vote against the will of the majority of the people, when it has no impact on keeping the gears turning.
Legalising weed would do nothing but good for our economy, numerous countries have already proved that. If I can step over them and skip months of bickering back and forth (so they can go back to arguing about how to improve things), I’m going to step over them.
If the people voted to legalise weed, the government would be scrambling to figure out how to test if people are high when driving. What’s an acceptable amount of weed in your system and can the police run accurate, cheap tests.
I don’t think the amount of people getting high will change much. It’s pretty easy to find weed wherever you go. All this will do is remove the black market, and provide high-quality weed for cheaper prices.
No studies have been able to show [canabis impairment] increases the actual risk of crashing, or that drivers with THC in their blood cause a disproportionate number of crashes.
It seems redundant to worry about it. Alcohol is worth testing for, the physiological impairment is dangerous (blacking out, blurred vision), and drunk people make riskier decisions.
The difference is now the police can charge people if they detect any cannabis in their system. If it were legal, there would need to be an acceptable level and ways for the police and the public to determine if they are over that level.
While several studies have shown increased risk associated with cannabis use by drivers, other studies have not found increased risk. From that same wikipedia article. It sounds like there’s no general consensus.
They also voted down treating gig economy workers like employees through that proposition system. But the AEC runs the show with our referendum system. They’re at least a referee to ensure that things are presented fairly.
Those looking for detail will be disappointed. These pamphlets don’t provide clarity either way. I don’t think it’s the fault of the aec, but rather how something like this is inserted into the constitution.
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Probably more direct than I would have been but good post, glad you’ve argued with people on the internet so I don’t have to.
A mixture of slippery slope, a complete disregard for the weight of history and a lack of understanding of the difference between “law” and “justice” seem to be a recurring set of arguments when it comes to disagreeing with social justice issues.
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Whether you believe they are an idiot or not for having their views is irrelevant. The sidebar says to keep discussion civil and respectful, I find having to remind everyone of this is like being a primary school teacher
I disagree with your political position, but I do agree with your stance on being disrespected.
I still feel like you should reply, but take the high road, continue to be respectful and address the points of disagreement. I want to see where this conversation goes.
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"Your capacity to be offended, isn’t something that I or anyone else needs to respect. Your capacity to be offended isn’t something you should respect. In fact, it’s something you should be on your guard for, perhaps more than any other property of your mind.
This feeling can mislead you. If you care about justice (and you absolutely should) you should care about facts and the ability to discuss them openly. Justice requires contact with reality.
It simply isn’t the case, it cannot be the case, that the most pressing claims on our sense of justice need come from those who claim to be most offended by conversation itself."
- Sam Harris
- In an ideal liberal democracy that’s been set up with agreement from all parties yes. But the aboriginals didn’t even get a vote on being colonised, nevermind Federation. They’ve essentially been under occupation for more than 200 years. The Voice is meant as a first step in resolving that conflict so we can move forward as a nation. Voice, Truth, Treaty. Even the racist yanks made treaties with their natives. Can we not even live up to that low bar?
- I personally don’t think the Voice will be a permanent feature but I also don’t think me or my grandchildren will be around to see it abolished. There is multigenerational trauma that needs to be acknowledged and healed. That’s the Truth and Treaty bit btw. The Voice is meant to make sure the government of the day doesn’t forget those two things.
- Not going to entertain slippery slopes. Other minorities consented to participate in the liberal democracy we established. See point 1 above.
- See point made by @Ilandar@aussie.zone about 200 years of oppression and attempted genocide.
- The Voice will be permanent that can’t be abolished like all the previous groups. It’s still purely advisory so parliament could absolutely ignore it but they have to consider the optics of the thing. Because now the Voice will be visible. Hand to heart, how many people could name all the previous aboriginal bodies before this debate? I know I couldn’t.
- The point is to not be purely performatory. Just adding a line in the Constitutions then patting ourselves on the back and calling it a job well done isn’t enough. So many organisations already do that today and it’s become nothing more than an empty ritual now. Do you notice all the “original custodian acknowledgements” uttered at the opening of every function? Adding a line to the Constitution would be just that.
- The point is to have a symbol that is visible. To move forward to Truth and Treaty. I think that’s an important step to take to right the wrongs of the past so we can move forward together.
- See point from @Ilandar@aussie.zone about them being here first. Also see point 1 about not really having a choice of being part of our modern nation.
I’m not even aboriginal. My ancestors came from China during the gold rush. There are things I’d like to see redressed too but I haven’t had it as bad. They’re first in line, so to speak.
A lot of people have responded intelligently, but I’m going to respond like a dum-dum:
- In a liberal democracy, everyone should be equal under the law, but this country was colonised. We could all just leave and come back later, or we could pay reparations. Otherwise, we’re basically stealing shit and saying “OK we’re starting liberal democracy… NOW”… wait (steal more stuff) “now”… I mean (steal more) now. Now for real! The Mabo ruling literally happened in the 90s. So much for Liberal Democracy.
- The Voice does not exist to “fix Aboriginal problems”. It exists as a first step towards reconciliation, there will be other steps which will need more constitutional amendments. The “problem” is non-aboriginal people.
- It’s not a “minority group”, it’s a dispossessed group due to colonisation. Yes, if you steal land and assets from “other minority groups” then maybe they would need recognition. This is consistent with other nations such as NZ.
- Yes, white Australians definitely need to take responsibility for colonisation and its effects which are happening to this day. You should definitely feel for people who have had violence committed on them regardless of race.
- Aboriginal advisory groups are often designed to fail and then shut down. It is an obvious problem for people who want to take things out of this country, sell it, and fuck off back to Britain. This one has constitutional power, so they won’t be able to do that. This will protect Australians.
- It’s not “were here first” it’s “were colonised”. If China won a war and took over Australia, they would not just change the constitution to say “sucks to be you”, they’d have to make up some shit, if only to create some sort of consent. The Australian constitution basically says “the queen says we’re a country now”
- Aboriginal people aren’t dickbags, they don’t want “real power”. They want recognition and reconciliation. They want to re-glue the history of this nation. Take a look at the Uluru statement from the heart. It is about subtlety, sharing, and growth, not about power and control.
- Some people are bad because they are idiots, others are bad because they choose to ignore history, and some are bad because they want to engineer hurt to others just to help themselves. You take your pick.
Thought provoking post. I want to do everything possible to help address aboriginal issues. But I would have preferred they trial the voice for a couple of years first to see if it works and iron out any issues. Then if it’s a success, use that as evidence why it should be added to the constitution. It seems wild to commit to something before we’ve really tried it.
It seems wild to commit to something before we’ve really tried it.
There’s been lots, either recognised or appointed by the government over the years.
And whenever they become inconvenient (publicly saying things the Government doesn’t want the public to hear), the Government of the day dismisses them.The whole point here is to institute a body that can
- Speak in parliament - which means whatever they say will be permanently a matter of record.
- Not get shut down the moment they are inconvenient.
The Government of the day doesn’t have to do what The Voice says and the The Voice has no veto - but they do have to publicly acknowledge what has been said to them.
That being said, I’ll still vote yes.
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Just a friendly reminder to keep discussions civil and respectful. It is important that we share a wide variety of opinions and debate around the topic is important. When responding to people who differ in opinion to you it is important not to respond with aggression or name-calling as it discourages these important conversations. If you notice the conversation getting off track please make a report so action can be taken if necessary.
The pamphlets are a waste of time because there was no legal obligation to make them truthful or factual.
Which is why the constitutional lawyer Dutton quoted is demanding his quote be removed pending legal action
The pamphlets have not helped me decide whatsoever. I was sortof leaning yes but…I just don’t know.
The pamphlets are for the people who decide in the voting booth, it’s worthwhile to look for more detail on the questions you have.
I’m voting Yes for two main reasons.
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When I look at NZ and the recognition of the Maori I feel embarassed that we have the oldest continuous civilization on the planet and we don’t give a shit about it at all.
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We haven’t moved the dial on any of the major markers impacting indigenous people in the last twenty years. Perhaps it’s time we actually started listening and giving them a voice isn’t a bad start.
Also there’s nobody on the No side I have any respect for. Jacinta Price and Warren Mundine are Opportunists, Lidia Thorpe is just the other side of the same coin. That tells me enough about the right side to be on.
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So do some reading, see what the legal community is saying, look for political academics commenting. Just stay away from political campaign drivel.
For me, I expect us to be an international laughing stock if we vote this down. We already have a reputation for serious racism and a referendum like this failing would make me actively seek alternative citizenship just out of embarrassment.
As for indigenous Australians, if we vote no I hope they start to radicalise. I’ll be on their side
Lol, give it up tankie it ain’t gonna happen 🤣
???
So avoiding politics and listening to legal and academic (bourgeoisie) opinions is Communist?
Ok boomer
Lol I’m not quite old enough to be a boomer
Whatever happens with the referendum you aren’t going to see many radical First Nations people. There will always be a small few who are, like now, but generally no it ain’t gonna happen
A no vote at the referendum means an effective end of the path to a treaty; you’re vastly underestimating the importance of this in indigenous communities.
