And by the way the whole point of believing is that you don’t need actual proof - if you have evidence you don’t need to believe, you know.
Isn’t a major talking point in LGBTQ culture also that asking for “proof” of being trans is rude and you only have to “feel” like one to be one? I’m not that informed in the culture but I know there’s a subset of “Transmedicalists” that are usually shunned because of that.
Yes and when we study those empirical we come op with rather different explanations than offered by religion. The “God of Gaps” is getting smaller.
Afaik we still didn’t find any possible explanation for either that doesn’t just bring up more questions. It got smaller for a long time but we’re at a point where we’re probably not ever going further unless someone does the biggest scientific breakthrough of history.
But again. I can go outside an meet trans people. You can have different explanation to why there is such phenomenon as trans people and come up with different explanations and mechanisms. You can’t do quite the same thing with god. But sure you are welcome to propose an empirical experiment on nature of god.
Again, you can meet with trans people just like you can meet with religious people. And both have (usually) no objective, biological way to discern them from cis people or atheists. If you want to go further, there’s also people who claim they talked with God or whatever. It’s all claims, as far as I know, on both sides. You can’t empirically test well something that, by definition, can’t have an objective tell.
Isn’t a major talking point in LGBTQ culture also that asking for “proof” of being trans is rude and you only have to “feel” like one to be one? I’m not that informed in the culture but I know there’s a subset of “Transmedicalists” that are usually shunned because of that.
I’m talking about religion. Also asking people to prove their gender in general is considered rude. If someone says she is a women, you don’t normally ask them to prove it - would kind of border on sexual harassment(joke). Not sure why it would be different for trans folk.
Afaik we still didn’t find any possible explanation for either that doesn’t just bring up more questions. It got smaller for a long time but we’re at a point where we’re probably not ever going further unless someone does the biggest scientific breakthrough of history.
What do you mean, we have hypothesis for both. Again the difference is we can actually study those things, we can’t study god in the same sense.
Again, you can meet with trans people just like you can meet with religious people.
You are keep switching between god an religious people. Wich is a bit annoying and makes the conversation less fun. You were saying:
Religious people will easily tell you God can be empirically studied. The creation of the world, the forming of consciousness, and so on. They’re not proof in any way but imo it’s not much far off from “some (but not all) trans people have different brain waves than cis people” (at least that’s the most common thing I’ve heard about “objectivity” in gender).
So comparing existence of god and trans people. So which one is it?
To be clear I’m not doubting that Religions people exists, I doubt that god exists in the capacity they claim it to exist. As a psychological ans sociological construct god is real - and I might join the first religion than will come down with such definition of god. But that is far from what religions claim to be.
Also asking people to prove their gender in general is considered rude. If someone says she is a women, you don’t normally ask them to prove it - would kind of border on sexual harassment(joke). Not sure why it would be different for trans folk.
That’s Sex, not Gender, though. Gender is unrelated to physical appearance, as far as I know (and is thus impossible to prove).
What do you mean, we have hypothesis for both.
Not definite ones that don’t bring more questions, is what I’m saying. We have the Big Bang, but how did it happen? What caused it? That’s a gap that will probably never be filled.
You are keep switching between god an religious people. Wich is a bit annoying and makes the conversation less fun. You were (…)
comparing existence of god and trans people. So which one is it?
To be clear I’m not doubting that Religions people exists, I doubt that god exists in the capacity they claim it to exist.
And I don’t doubt Trans people exist, I doubt “Gender” exists as more than a concept. I’m comparing a “concrete” God with a “concrete” Gender, and Religious people with Trans people.
Just like Religious people can exist without proof of God existing, Trans people can exist without Gender actually being a biological, provable and irrefutable thing. You’re saying “one is real and the other is not” because you’re conflating the two.
That’s Sex, not Gender, though. Gender is unrelated to physical appearance, as far as I know (and is thus impossible to prove).
So you don’t even know what gender is, but you chime in anyway - internet discussion at it best.
Not definite ones that don’t bring more questions, is what I’m saying. We have the Big Bang, but how did it happen? What caused it? That’s a gap that will probably never be filled.
There are books on knowledge more complex than what we learned in school. If you fit in physics you can make a rather deep dive into all the questions you just asked - it’s far more interesting than god just did it for the fun of it.
And I don’t doubt Trans people exist, I doubt “Gender” exists as more than a concept. I’m comparing a “concrete” God with a “concrete” Gender, and Religious people with Trans people.
So by this comparison you think that trans people believe to be trans in the same way religious people believe that god exists? Just need to clarify that I got you correct.
Just like Religious people can exist without proof of God existing, Trans people can exist without Gender actually being a biological, provable and irrefutable thing. You’re saying “one is real and the other is not” because you’re conflating the two.
Again, I don’t doubt that religious people exist. Not sure why you keep bringing it up.
So you don’t even know what gender is, but you chime in anyway - internet discussion at it best.
I’m plastering this discussion with “I think”, “as far as I know” and the likes exactly because I’m not fully knowledgeable on the matter. If I’m getting stuff wrong you could correct me instead of simply telling me I’m wrong.
Again, I don’t doubt that religious people exist. Not sure why you keep bringing it up.
I’m not. I’m saying “one is real and the other isn’t” works only if you compare God to Trans people instead of the concept of Gender.
So by this comparison you think that trans people believe to be trans in the same way religious people believe that god exists? Just need to clarify that I got you correct.
I’m not Trans and I’m not Religious so I have no actual way to tell. Only someone who is both could actually have a meaningful say in this discussion, and even then it’s just the opinion of one person and it wouldn’t represent the whole group(s). What I personally think (and again, this might be entirely wrong as I have no direct knowledge of it), is that they’re people who felt something wrong with their life and gave it an explanation that lets them live better. That explanation might be true or not, but as long as it makes them live better and doesn’t hurt others (and this is where unfortunately most Religious people fail), it doesn’t really matter for it to work and be accepted as a natural part of society.
I personally know no Trans person and it’s genuinely hard to talk about this online without being mistaken as one of the thousand different camps who hate Trans people for one dumb reason or another, so my knowledge about the subject is limited to this, unfortunately. If you know/think it’s different I’d be glad to hear why.
I’m plastering this discussion with “I think”, “as far as I know” and the likes exactly because I’m not fully knowledgeable on the matter. If I’m getting stuff wrong you could correct me instead of simply telling me I’m wrong.
That is a fair point. I’m just always surprise how confident people discuss matter they (sometimes they even admit) know little about. So what do you think gender is?
I’m not Trans and I’m not Religious so I have no actual way to tell. Only someone who is both could actually have a meaningful say in this discussion, and even then it’s just the opinion of one person and it wouldn’t represent the whole group(s). What I personally think (and again, this might be entirely wrong as I have no direct knowledge of it), is that they’re people who felt something wrong with their life and gave it an explanation that lets them live better. That explanation might be true or not, but as long as it makes them live better and doesn’t hurt others (and this is where unfortunately most Religious people fail), it doesn’t really matter for it to work and be accepted as a natural part of society.
Ok, so you making a more broader almost philosophical point, that religious experience and gender identity different than hetero are both results of people feeling something wrong (in a complex sense) with their life and come up with an explanation (difficult to find the right words), acceptance of which made them feel better. Did I get your point this time?
personally know no Trans person and it’s genuinely hard to talk about this online without being mistaken as one of the thousand different camps who hate Trans people for one dumb reason or another, so my knowledge about the subject is limited to this, unfortunately. If you know/think it’s different I’d be glad to hear why.
I’m not trans, but one of my best friends is. I would think that the best way to understand would be to just meet trans folks and talk. You sound like you come from a genuine point of being curious and not understanding something that you don’t know which is always ok, and I’m sorry to hear that you had bad experience talking about it online. But that is a nature of a sensitive topic. You can ask me, I might help to clarify some things. But keep in mind, I’m not an expert so verify the things I say and also I don’t speak from my own experience.
The idea I got so far is that it’s kind of a social construct of “ways to be perceived by yourself and the world” that is, so far, typical of people born (or at least, raised) with a specific sex. If your preferred way of expressing yourself is mostly conforming with what “the world” expects from your biological sex you’re cis, otherwise you’re trans. That’s roughly how I thought of it until now, tell me if I misunderstood something.
Ok, so you making a more broader almost philosophical point, that religious experience and gender identity different than hetero are both results of people feeling something wrong (in a complex sense) with their life and come up with an explanation (difficult to find the right words), acceptance of which made them feel better. Did I get your point this time?
Kinda, I guess? It’s still not there because I know there’s people who don’t feel Gender Dysphoria for their current sex but only Euphoria for another, but you could say feeling like something “could be better” is still feeling “something wrong”, in a sense.
I’m not trans, but one of my best friends is. I would think that the best way to understand would be to just meet trans folks and talk. You sound like you come from a genuine point of being curious and not understanding something that you don’t know which is always ok, and I’m sorry to hear that you had bad experience talking about it online. But that is a nature of a sensitive topic. You can ask me, I might help to clarify some things. But keep in mind, I’m not an expert so verify the things I say and also I don’t speak from my own experience.
Yeah, it’s definitely the best way, but I don’t really know any trans person and I don’t think there’s any in my area, or at least none who came out. And even if there was one I wouldn’t really want to ask them delicate questions like this unless I’m very close to them. I know it’s a very delicate subject even to touch online, I imagine irl people would feel even more pressure.
Your concept of gender sounds alright. I would just disagree with the term prefer, if you think about yourself and your gender - there is just a way you express your gender that is no really conscious. So I personally would say: that if your gender expression and identification is closer to your biological sex you that is called cis and if your gender expression and identification is closer to the opposite biological sex that’s called trans.
Kinda, I guess? It’s still not there because I know there’s people who don’t feel Gender Dysphoria for their current sex but only Euphoria for another, but you could say feeling like something “could be better” is still feeling “something wrong”, in a sense.
Interesting view. I feel like I’m the wrong person to discuss this with, since I’m also neither trans or religious - so we kind of like two fish talking about the desert in this regard. But from my talks with trans people that is not how they experience their existence. But I might have something to bring the concept of being trans more closer to you - in your thoughts you projection of yourself aligns with your biological sex - imagine it would not. Imagine in your thoughts and dreams you have different gender than the one your biology suggest.
Yeah, it’s definitely the best way, but I don’t really know any trans person and I don’t think there’s any in my area, or at least none who came out.
I can recommend contrapoints, she has also a video on trangsgender ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EdvM_pRfuFM ) and there are interviews out there were she talks more about her personal experience. She is rather philosophical so you might like it.
For me personally, I had no strong opinion on trans people - besides that I didn’t really understood it from personal experience point of view, since my gender seems not that important to me - I experience myself mostly just as my self, but I guess that’s the cis experience and that everyone should do what they want as long as they are not hurting others. Than I worked together with a trans girl on a few projects and we became friends and the interesting part for me was, that from the beginning I had the vibe with her I have around women. Which helped me to put my thoughts around that topic into places.
Your concept of gender sounds alright. I would just disagree with the term prefer, if you think about yourself and your gender - there is just a way you express your gender that is no really conscious. So I personally would say: that if your gender expression and identification is closer to your biological sex you that is called cis and if your gender expression and identification is closer to the opposite biological sex that’s called trans.
I used “prefer” because I figured it’s also a matter of preference in how would you like to be treated (as a male, a female or whatever), but yes, I don’t really “think” about how I want to express myself so I guess that’s mostly subconscious.
But I might have something to bring the concept of being trans more closer to you - in your thoughts you projection of yourself aligns with your biological sex - imagine it would not. Imagine in your thoughts and dreams you have different gender than the one your biology suggest.
I’ve heard about it and tried thinking that way, but I really can’t imagine it from an outside perspective. As you said, I don’t really feel like my gender is that important either, so I guess that’s common for cis people. Like, I’m a male, but if I was born female I think my biggest “annoyances” would be the expectations society would have on me, and it would just be (probably much) harder to go against them. I imagine I would’ve just turned out tomboyish. …or at least that’s what I thought before I learned there’s a lot of trans people who don’t experience Body Dysphoria and/or aren’t interested in surgery, then I got really confused and figured I’ll probably never know for sure unless I meet an alternate universe version of myself or something.
I can recommend contrapoints, she has also a video on trangsgender ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EdvM_pRfuFM ) and there are interviews out there were she talks more about her personal experience. She is rather philosophical so you might like it.
I’ll have a look at it, thanks!
Than I worked together with a trans girl on a few projects and we became friends and the interesting part for me was, that from the beginning I had the vibe with her I have around women. Which helped me to put my thoughts around that topic into places.
The vibe, you say… that’s interesting, I’d be curious to see if I ever experience something like that.
Isn’t a major talking point in LGBTQ culture also that asking for “proof” of being trans is rude and you only have to “feel” like one to be one? I’m not that informed in the culture but I know there’s a subset of “Transmedicalists” that are usually shunned because of that.
Afaik we still didn’t find any possible explanation for either that doesn’t just bring up more questions. It got smaller for a long time but we’re at a point where we’re probably not ever going further unless someone does the biggest scientific breakthrough of history.
Again, you can meet with trans people just like you can meet with religious people. And both have (usually) no objective, biological way to discern them from cis people or atheists. If you want to go further, there’s also people who claim they talked with God or whatever. It’s all claims, as far as I know, on both sides. You can’t empirically test well something that, by definition, can’t have an objective tell.
I’m talking about religion. Also asking people to prove their gender in general is considered rude. If someone says she is a women, you don’t normally ask them to prove it - would kind of border on sexual harassment(joke). Not sure why it would be different for trans folk.
What do you mean, we have hypothesis for both. Again the difference is we can actually study those things, we can’t study god in the same sense.
You are keep switching between god an religious people. Wich is a bit annoying and makes the conversation less fun. You were saying:
So comparing existence of god and trans people. So which one is it?
To be clear I’m not doubting that Religions people exists, I doubt that god exists in the capacity they claim it to exist. As a psychological ans sociological construct god is real - and I might join the first religion than will come down with such definition of god. But that is far from what religions claim to be.
That’s Sex, not Gender, though. Gender is unrelated to physical appearance, as far as I know (and is thus impossible to prove).
Not definite ones that don’t bring more questions, is what I’m saying. We have the Big Bang, but how did it happen? What caused it? That’s a gap that will probably never be filled.
And I don’t doubt Trans people exist, I doubt “Gender” exists as more than a concept. I’m comparing a “concrete” God with a “concrete” Gender, and Religious people with Trans people.
Just like Religious people can exist without proof of God existing, Trans people can exist without Gender actually being a biological, provable and irrefutable thing. You’re saying “one is real and the other is not” because you’re conflating the two.
So you don’t even know what gender is, but you chime in anyway - internet discussion at it best.
There are books on knowledge more complex than what we learned in school. If you fit in physics you can make a rather deep dive into all the questions you just asked - it’s far more interesting than god just did it for the fun of it.
So by this comparison you think that trans people believe to be trans in the same way religious people believe that god exists? Just need to clarify that I got you correct.
Again, I don’t doubt that religious people exist. Not sure why you keep bringing it up.
I’m plastering this discussion with “I think”, “as far as I know” and the likes exactly because I’m not fully knowledgeable on the matter. If I’m getting stuff wrong you could correct me instead of simply telling me I’m wrong.
I’m not. I’m saying “one is real and the other isn’t” works only if you compare God to Trans people instead of the concept of Gender.
I’m not Trans and I’m not Religious so I have no actual way to tell. Only someone who is both could actually have a meaningful say in this discussion, and even then it’s just the opinion of one person and it wouldn’t represent the whole group(s). What I personally think (and again, this might be entirely wrong as I have no direct knowledge of it), is that they’re people who felt something wrong with their life and gave it an explanation that lets them live better. That explanation might be true or not, but as long as it makes them live better and doesn’t hurt others (and this is where unfortunately most Religious people fail), it doesn’t really matter for it to work and be accepted as a natural part of society.
I personally know no Trans person and it’s genuinely hard to talk about this online without being mistaken as one of the thousand different camps who hate Trans people for one dumb reason or another, so my knowledge about the subject is limited to this, unfortunately. If you know/think it’s different I’d be glad to hear why.
That is a fair point. I’m just always surprise how confident people discuss matter they (sometimes they even admit) know little about. So what do you think gender is?
Ok, so you making a more broader almost philosophical point, that religious experience and gender identity different than hetero are both results of people feeling something wrong (in a complex sense) with their life and come up with an explanation (difficult to find the right words), acceptance of which made them feel better. Did I get your point this time?
I’m not trans, but one of my best friends is. I would think that the best way to understand would be to just meet trans folks and talk. You sound like you come from a genuine point of being curious and not understanding something that you don’t know which is always ok, and I’m sorry to hear that you had bad experience talking about it online. But that is a nature of a sensitive topic. You can ask me, I might help to clarify some things. But keep in mind, I’m not an expert so verify the things I say and also I don’t speak from my own experience.
The idea I got so far is that it’s kind of a social construct of “ways to be perceived by yourself and the world” that is, so far, typical of people born (or at least, raised) with a specific sex. If your preferred way of expressing yourself is mostly conforming with what “the world” expects from your biological sex you’re cis, otherwise you’re trans. That’s roughly how I thought of it until now, tell me if I misunderstood something.
Kinda, I guess? It’s still not there because I know there’s people who don’t feel Gender Dysphoria for their current sex but only Euphoria for another, but you could say feeling like something “could be better” is still feeling “something wrong”, in a sense.
Yeah, it’s definitely the best way, but I don’t really know any trans person and I don’t think there’s any in my area, or at least none who came out. And even if there was one I wouldn’t really want to ask them delicate questions like this unless I’m very close to them. I know it’s a very delicate subject even to touch online, I imagine irl people would feel even more pressure.
Your concept of gender sounds alright. I would just disagree with the term prefer, if you think about yourself and your gender - there is just a way you express your gender that is no really conscious. So I personally would say: that if your gender expression and identification is closer to your biological sex you that is called cis and if your gender expression and identification is closer to the opposite biological sex that’s called trans.
Interesting view. I feel like I’m the wrong person to discuss this with, since I’m also neither trans or religious - so we kind of like two fish talking about the desert in this regard. But from my talks with trans people that is not how they experience their existence. But I might have something to bring the concept of being trans more closer to you - in your thoughts you projection of yourself aligns with your biological sex - imagine it would not. Imagine in your thoughts and dreams you have different gender than the one your biology suggest.
I can recommend contrapoints, she has also a video on trangsgender ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EdvM_pRfuFM ) and there are interviews out there were she talks more about her personal experience. She is rather philosophical so you might like it.
For me personally, I had no strong opinion on trans people - besides that I didn’t really understood it from personal experience point of view, since my gender seems not that important to me - I experience myself mostly just as my self, but I guess that’s the cis experience and that everyone should do what they want as long as they are not hurting others. Than I worked together with a trans girl on a few projects and we became friends and the interesting part for me was, that from the beginning I had the vibe with her I have around women. Which helped me to put my thoughts around that topic into places.
I used “prefer” because I figured it’s also a matter of preference in how would you like to be treated (as a male, a female or whatever), but yes, I don’t really “think” about how I want to express myself so I guess that’s mostly subconscious.
I’ve heard about it and tried thinking that way, but I really can’t imagine it from an outside perspective. As you said, I don’t really feel like my gender is that important either, so I guess that’s common for cis people. Like, I’m a male, but if I was born female I think my biggest “annoyances” would be the expectations society would have on me, and it would just be (probably much) harder to go against them. I imagine I would’ve just turned out tomboyish. …or at least that’s what I thought before I learned there’s a lot of trans people who don’t experience Body Dysphoria and/or aren’t interested in surgery, then I got really confused and figured I’ll probably never know for sure unless I meet an alternate universe version of myself or something.
I’ll have a look at it, thanks!
The vibe, you say… that’s interesting, I’d be curious to see if I ever experience something like that.