I really, REALLY hate this line of thinking. I mean with the burning passion of a thousand suns.
Biden is in an unenviable position. Hamas started this war by launching an unprovoked attack knowing full well they couldn’t handle the crackback. Israel has taken their retaliation way too far, well beyond the point of being defensible. They’ve bombed refugee camps and hospitals and when asked about the civillian casualties, basically said “sucks to be them”. What they are doing now is committing the exact genocide that they themselves have been worried about for decades if not centuries now. Biden made a mistake by continuing to stand by Israel even after they admit to and just shrug off the atrocities they commit on the daily, but there was never a position where Biden could pick a side (or even choose to remain neutral) without alienating an entire community of people.
And in almost any other situation, I may agree with them in their desire to either vote for another candidate or just sit home. But there are literally only three options here: Hold your nose and vote for Biden, vote for Trump in protest of Biden, or sit home and not vote at all, which is a de facto vote for Trump. In the immortal words of Rush, “If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice.” And that choice benefits Trump.
No matter how pissed off you are at Biden right now, do you think it would be any better under Trump? Did the Trump administration give you any indication that Trump is going to suddenly be sympathetic to an entire race of people that he to this day continues to use racial slurs to describe?
Your choices are (a) Biden, or (b) someone exponentially worse than Biden. That’s it. This is the reality of the situation. If you do not choose (a), you’re choosing (b). If you don’t choose at all, you’ll be given (b) by default. Your only realistic option is to choose (a). Doing anything else because you disagree with the path Biden chose to take will do nothing but make the situation worse. There is no other option. Voting against Biden or choosing to stay home in protest is a textbook example of cutting off your own nose to spite your face. I stopped supporting Israel in any of this the minute they thought bombing a hospital and writing off hundreds of patients as expendable collateral damage was in some way acceptable, but no matter how much I disagree with Biden’s policies, I also know that the only other option available is much, much worse.
Be careful what you wish for, guys. You might get it.
That’s a lot of words to say “at least he’s not Trump!!” Sure would be nice if democrats had a strategy other than that. You know, like actually trying to improve things. What incentive do democrats have to improve things when your vote is guaranteed because not voting for democrats “is a vote for fascism”? I mean, here is Biden, pledging EVEN MORE billions of dollars to Israel as they ramp up their ethnic cleansing efforts. Democrats being fascists with a kinder image isn’t good enough.
It sucks to vote for the least of two evils. But not voting at all is effectively half a vote for the worst of the two. Yeah, it feels like youre resisting if you refuse to play when there’s only a two party system. Not gonna accept only having a choice between two crappy people and their parties! Hold out by not voting! Or by voting for someone who has NO chance ? Well great, then you up your chances of next having no choice at all – with just one insane party and its dictator when they make it permanent. Not acting makes you responsible for installing Emperor Trump. Dint kid yourself.
Except voting for democrats is not acting when the end result is largely the same. There needs to be some way to send the message that we want better. The system is designed to bury that message except for rich donors.
The way to send the message is to vote third party. Every Republican I talk to tells me it’s a vote for the Democrats and every Democrat I talk to tells me it’s a vote for the Republicans. In reality it’s a message: We want something else. I really feel like Trump’s message in 2016 of draining the swamp had a lot of appeal to people. I live in super red territory and many of the hard core trumpers I have visited with have expressed that our current system is broken and corrupt - they felt like Trump was going to be at least something different. It’s a powerful message, unfortunately it’s Trump and therefore unconscionable to vote for him.
We need to legitimize and destigmatize multiple options beyond the two terrible parties.
Ross Perot got over 18% of the vote in 1992 which is way higher than any third party could ever hope for these days, but no message was received by the two dominating parties. The attitude is that a third party is a wasted vote and it’s reinforced whenever “the other guy” gets in. Democrats, in usual fashion blaming everyone but themselves, were screaming bloody murder at the green party getting like 2% of the vote in 2016, claiming that cost them the election. No changes were made.
Biden pledging additional billions of dollars to Israel while they’re actively committing genocide is being an actual monster. It’s actual monsters vs actual monsters here. If your only strategy is “always vote for us 100% of the time or the fascists will win” while also committing acts of fascism, then clearly the only outcome can be fascism. Even a little kid can see that, but you’re a super smart adult who is content with fascism because supposedly to accept genocide is the mature thing to do.
Biden isn’t going to try to destroy democracy, and there’s still down ballot Dems to put Biden in a bind. My strategy is to vote for Biden, but vote in Dems that takes in naunces of Israel-Hamas war in the downballot.
Hey, both parties may be bad for Palestinians in Palestine. But they both haven’t been equally bad for Americans, and I’ll always vote for my own self interests because I’d be stupid not to. I just happen to also think it’ll still end up being in their best interests as well.
Self interests such as…? I sure would love to enjoy the benefits of voting democrat, but I’ve yet to find any. I’ve only voted democrat and absolutely refuse to ever vote for republicans, but I’m not going to delude myself into thinking it’s actually making a difference.
It’s gonna sound really patronizing to explain how voting works and how your vote literally counts the same as your neighbors. So, instead, I’ll ask you to complete your secondary school education on your own.
Being told your votes doesn’t count because of how the electrol college works ignores what happens when states flip by a few hundred votes. It absolutely counts. If everyone actually did vote, it’d be an interesting world.
My own self interests tend to be keeping the party in place that appoints Supreme Court justices that don’t roll back peoples rights or elects officials that implement social programs I support, like expanded healthcare, lunch programs and social services. They also take the place of politicians pushing book bans etc.
It’s gonna sound really patronizing because you are being patronizing. You’re also completely missing the point. My vote is counted as in they literally count the vote, but both parties bend to the wills of rich donors. The problem is that democrats are not making a difference.
Your own self interests apparently lie with the party that just sat around with their thumbs up their ass and let republicans block Obama’s last supreme court justice. Not like it matters much, because when democrats do appoint supreme court justices, they appoint the most milquetoast, spineless cowards that will uphold the failing status quo at best. The direction of the supreme court is obvious.
Obama had the chance to make a lasting difference, and he ran on such promises, but then he turned his back on those promises the second he got in. Democrats sometimes talk the talk, but they never walk the walk. Look in the mirror because you’re the prime example of what’s wrong with the democratic party, a collection of patronizing jackasses who have a savior complex but are completely worthless when it comes to real change.
I said it would be patronizing. I am not a school teacher. I dont have the education, tolerance, or will to explain things so obvious to someone speaking so aggressively on a subject they’ve displayed an ignorance about but speak so brazenly about.
You literally just described how the GOP did bad things the Dems failed to stop, so your choice is to not try? And demonize the group that just never (wrongfully) anticipates how evil their opponents are willing to be.
You’re obviously trolling. When you wrote that, did you think anyone would say yes? Presidential elections are about so much more than a single global conflict. It factors into my personal decision almost 0% because I know the other option on the table is just as happy to see Muslims die. Since they are the same in that aspect, it’s not worth consideration.
Now, one of the parties ensured my health care coverage when I was unemployed, and the other encouraged acts of sedition. Its not a hard choice.
I don’t necessarily disagree, but the other side of that coin is that every election is painted this way in America.
Not saying it isn’t true for Trump, but supposing he loses in 24, you don’t think the GOP will stay sufficiently shitty that in 28 they send him up again, or a younger old white guy who’s still sufficiently horrible?
It’s a very very calculated part of the two party system that the Other Guy is offensive enough to those on the fringes of the tent to shame, scare, or guilt them into voting for “their” guy.
Again, I don’t disagree with you, especially in this case, but it’s exactly how the parties are designed to work to perpetuate the illusion of choice. If the Democrats can just point to Trump to convince progressives to keep voting for their guy, when or why would they ever shift their platform in a direction to court more progressive voters?
Democrats regularly promote fascists so that they can position themselves as heroes for “standing up to fascism”, a problem which they actively contribute to. It allows them to not actually improve things while pretending they’re the thin blue line separating civil society from wanton destruction.
A friend of mine is very much a Democrat, capital D.
Like…we obviously agree on most issues, but he’s a fairly centrist (American style) moderate Democrat who is active in working with and for his local party organization and basically while he might not like every single thing they do, he doesn’t dislike any of it enough to stop volunteering for the party, much less even think of voting anything other than party line.
This is one of the big areas where we’ve disagreed.
He’s of the same mindset as the comments we’ve replied to, often repeating the same rationale of, “Look, I get it, you want more progress and want different things than the main centrist moderate portion of the party. I get that and I agree with you. But you aren’t getting that with the other side, so what you need to do is vote for what we want in the center, and then once we’re in positions of power, that’s the only chance you have of getting what you want.”
To that I’ve often responded that progressives have tried that route for ages, and all it’s ever gotten them is a party that takes them for granted, and keeps making these far right boogymen to scare their left wing into votes. They’ve made it clear over and over again that they’ll never, ever move left or adopt any platform positions desired by the progressives until and unless those progressives withhold their support.
The party played chicken with progressives in 2016 and underestimated not only the resolve of the progressives but also the apathy of the moderate voters (which they also take for granted…as much as they like to paint the GOP as a party who’s identity is nothing more than anti whatever the Dems want, the Dems themselves have also become the party of “we deserve your vote simply because we’re not them”).
I’m very pleased that my district is currently represented by a progressive. She doesn’t always vote the way I feel on every issue, but even with that taken into account, I feel like she’s doing more to move the country in a direction I want than a centrist would have, and I’ll happily support her next fall.
They’ve made it clear over and over again that they’ll never, ever move left or adopt any platform positions desired by the progressives until and unless those progressives withhold their support.
As a counterpoint – the Democratic party is further left than it’s been in ages. There hasn’t been an administration that’s taken climate change more seriously than this. Topics championed by Progressives are discussed within the mainstream party and aspects are included. The infrastructure bill, inflation reduction act, and American rescue plan are all great examples of this.
This didn’t happen because progressives withheld their support. It’s because progressives gave their support. Bernie ultimately has been the ideological winner. It’s clear which direction the party is going. And it’s noteworthy that a big reason why he works so well with Biden is that they’re friends, or at least friendly colleagues. Biden was friendly to Sanders in the Senate, and that’s what opened the door. It’s cooperation and friendship that moves the policies we want forward.
This is just as much a lesson to moderates as well, that they need to be a lot more cooperative and conciliatory and way less antagonistic to progressives.
I continue to vote democrat straight down the ballot every time. Might as well, especially since I can mail in the ballot so it’s not like it’s much effort on my part, but I don’t see any avenue to send the message that I’m not satisfied with most of the party’s policies, which align mainly with the interests of the rich.
They claim that they’ll deliver if they can get power, but when they do get that power, it’s always conveniently blocked by the exact number of democrats that will magically flip to the other side in order to prevent it. Seems like if they do get a super majority, they’ll claim that they must be doing something right to gain such support and will thus stay the course. There just doesn’t seem to be a to voice disapproval in a way that matters. Here are Americans voicing their disapproval in a way that democrats can hear, but Biden continues to pledge overwhelming support for genocide, even though he has the power to do otherwise.
And in 4 years it’ll be another mediocre candidate who will be elected because they’re the lesser of two evils. It’s not like they’ve got statistics on their side.
Would you be happy being imprisoned for life justifying it as “at least I’m not being actively tortured the whole time”? The richest country in the world can do a lot better, don’t settle for the bare minimum (and in many cases, less than the bare minimum).
Biden made a mistake by continuing to stand by Israel even after they admit to and just shrug off the atrocities they commit on the daily, but there was never a position where Biden could pick a side (or even choose to remain neutral) without alienating an entire community of people.
In the immortal words of Rush, “If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice.”
Sounds like your own quote is contradicting your own point there, chief.
But yeah, you’re sadly in a ‘lesser of two evils’ situation. American foreign policy teaches that this usually gets fixed by assassinating one of the evils and waiting for the power vacuum to be filled by an even lesser evil - repeat until satisfied with the result. I suggest you guys get together and put that second amendment to work.
I really, REALLY hate this line of thinking. I mean with the burning passion of a thousand suns.
Biden is in an unenviable position. Hamas started this war by launching an unprovoked attack knowing full well they couldn’t handle the crackback. Israel has taken their retaliation way too far, well beyond the point of being defensible. They’ve bombed refugee camps and hospitals and when asked about the civillian casualties, basically said “sucks to be them”. What they are doing now is committing the exact genocide that they themselves have been worried about for decades if not centuries now. Biden made a mistake by continuing to stand by Israel even after they admit to and just shrug off the atrocities they commit on the daily, but there was never a position where Biden could pick a side (or even choose to remain neutral) without alienating an entire community of people.
And in almost any other situation, I may agree with them in their desire to either vote for another candidate or just sit home. But there are literally only three options here: Hold your nose and vote for Biden, vote for Trump in protest of Biden, or sit home and not vote at all, which is a de facto vote for Trump. In the immortal words of Rush, “If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice.” And that choice benefits Trump.
No matter how pissed off you are at Biden right now, do you think it would be any better under Trump? Did the Trump administration give you any indication that Trump is going to suddenly be sympathetic to an entire race of people that he to this day continues to use racial slurs to describe?
Your choices are (a) Biden, or (b) someone exponentially worse than Biden. That’s it. This is the reality of the situation. If you do not choose (a), you’re choosing (b). If you don’t choose at all, you’ll be given (b) by default. Your only realistic option is to choose (a). Doing anything else because you disagree with the path Biden chose to take will do nothing but make the situation worse. There is no other option. Voting against Biden or choosing to stay home in protest is a textbook example of cutting off your own nose to spite your face. I stopped supporting Israel in any of this the minute they thought bombing a hospital and writing off hundreds of patients as expendable collateral damage was in some way acceptable, but no matter how much I disagree with Biden’s policies, I also know that the only other option available is much, much worse.
Be careful what you wish for, guys. You might get it.
That’s a lot of words to say “at least he’s not Trump!!” Sure would be nice if democrats had a strategy other than that. You know, like actually trying to improve things. What incentive do democrats have to improve things when your vote is guaranteed because not voting for democrats “is a vote for fascism”? I mean, here is Biden, pledging EVEN MORE billions of dollars to Israel as they ramp up their ethnic cleansing efforts. Democrats being fascists with a kinder image isn’t good enough.
It sucks to vote for the least of two evils. But not voting at all is effectively half a vote for the worst of the two. Yeah, it feels like youre resisting if you refuse to play when there’s only a two party system. Not gonna accept only having a choice between two crappy people and their parties! Hold out by not voting! Or by voting for someone who has NO chance ? Well great, then you up your chances of next having no choice at all – with just one insane party and its dictator when they make it permanent. Not acting makes you responsible for installing Emperor Trump. Dint kid yourself.
Except voting for democrats is not acting when the end result is largely the same. There needs to be some way to send the message that we want better. The system is designed to bury that message except for rich donors.
The way to send the message is to vote third party. Every Republican I talk to tells me it’s a vote for the Democrats and every Democrat I talk to tells me it’s a vote for the Republicans. In reality it’s a message: We want something else. I really feel like Trump’s message in 2016 of draining the swamp had a lot of appeal to people. I live in super red territory and many of the hard core trumpers I have visited with have expressed that our current system is broken and corrupt - they felt like Trump was going to be at least something different. It’s a powerful message, unfortunately it’s Trump and therefore unconscionable to vote for him.
We need to legitimize and destigmatize multiple options beyond the two terrible parties.
Ross Perot got over 18% of the vote in 1992 which is way higher than any third party could ever hope for these days, but no message was received by the two dominating parties. The attitude is that a third party is a wasted vote and it’s reinforced whenever “the other guy” gets in. Democrats, in usual fashion blaming everyone but themselves, were screaming bloody murder at the green party getting like 2% of the vote in 2016, claiming that cost them the election. No changes were made.
It’ll have to be good enough for the next 4 years. When the choice is no longer incumbent vs actual monsters…
Pounding fists on the table saying it’s unacceptable is just little kid energy; like breaking your own toys cuz you’re mad.
Biden pledging additional billions of dollars to Israel while they’re actively committing genocide is being an actual monster. It’s actual monsters vs actual monsters here. If your only strategy is “always vote for us 100% of the time or the fascists will win” while also committing acts of fascism, then clearly the only outcome can be fascism. Even a little kid can see that, but you’re a super smart adult who is content with fascism because supposedly to accept genocide is the mature thing to do.
Biden isn’t going to try to destroy democracy, and there’s still down ballot Dems to put Biden in a bind. My strategy is to vote for Biden, but vote in Dems that takes in naunces of Israel-Hamas war in the downballot.
This is the way.
Hey, both parties may be bad for Palestinians in Palestine. But they both haven’t been equally bad for Americans, and I’ll always vote for my own self interests because I’d be stupid not to. I just happen to also think it’ll still end up being in their best interests as well.
Self interests such as…? I sure would love to enjoy the benefits of voting democrat, but I’ve yet to find any. I’ve only voted democrat and absolutely refuse to ever vote for republicans, but I’m not going to delude myself into thinking it’s actually making a difference.
It’s gonna sound really patronizing to explain how voting works and how your vote literally counts the same as your neighbors. So, instead, I’ll ask you to complete your secondary school education on your own.
Being told your votes doesn’t count because of how the electrol college works ignores what happens when states flip by a few hundred votes. It absolutely counts. If everyone actually did vote, it’d be an interesting world.
My own self interests tend to be keeping the party in place that appoints Supreme Court justices that don’t roll back peoples rights or elects officials that implement social programs I support, like expanded healthcare, lunch programs and social services. They also take the place of politicians pushing book bans etc.
It’s gonna sound really patronizing because you are being patronizing. You’re also completely missing the point. My vote is counted as in they literally count the vote, but both parties bend to the wills of rich donors. The problem is that democrats are not making a difference.
Your own self interests apparently lie with the party that just sat around with their thumbs up their ass and let republicans block Obama’s last supreme court justice. Not like it matters much, because when democrats do appoint supreme court justices, they appoint the most milquetoast, spineless cowards that will uphold the failing status quo at best. The direction of the supreme court is obvious.
If you’re stupid enough to think democrats actually care about the things you’ve listed, here’s a reality check: https://www.reuters.com/article/obama-abortion/obama-says-abortion-rights-law-not-a-top-priority-idUKN2946642020090430
Obama had the chance to make a lasting difference, and he ran on such promises, but then he turned his back on those promises the second he got in. Democrats sometimes talk the talk, but they never walk the walk. Look in the mirror because you’re the prime example of what’s wrong with the democratic party, a collection of patronizing jackasses who have a savior complex but are completely worthless when it comes to real change.
I said it would be patronizing. I am not a school teacher. I dont have the education, tolerance, or will to explain things so obvious to someone speaking so aggressively on a subject they’ve displayed an ignorance about but speak so brazenly about.
You literally just described how the GOP did bad things the Dems failed to stop, so your choice is to not try? And demonize the group that just never (wrongfully) anticipates how evil their opponents are willing to be.
Elaborate on this. If you’re looking at anything happening in Gaza this is an insane take. “A little genocide is good for you”
You’re obviously trolling. When you wrote that, did you think anyone would say yes? Presidential elections are about so much more than a single global conflict. It factors into my personal decision almost 0% because I know the other option on the table is just as happy to see Muslims die. Since they are the same in that aspect, it’s not worth consideration.
Now, one of the parties ensured my health care coverage when I was unemployed, and the other encouraged acts of sedition. Its not a hard choice.
I don’t necessarily disagree, but the other side of that coin is that every election is painted this way in America.
Not saying it isn’t true for Trump, but supposing he loses in 24, you don’t think the GOP will stay sufficiently shitty that in 28 they send him up again, or a younger old white guy who’s still sufficiently horrible?
It’s a very very calculated part of the two party system that the Other Guy is offensive enough to those on the fringes of the tent to shame, scare, or guilt them into voting for “their” guy.
Again, I don’t disagree with you, especially in this case, but it’s exactly how the parties are designed to work to perpetuate the illusion of choice. If the Democrats can just point to Trump to convince progressives to keep voting for their guy, when or why would they ever shift their platform in a direction to court more progressive voters?
Exactly, it’s part of the democratic party strategy. Let’s not forget that Hillary Clinton’s team did what they could to position Trump to be the republican nominee: https://www.salon.com/2016/11/09/the-hillary-clinton-campaign-intentionally-created-donald-trump-with-its-pied-piper-strategy/
Democrats regularly promote fascists so that they can position themselves as heroes for “standing up to fascism”, a problem which they actively contribute to. It allows them to not actually improve things while pretending they’re the thin blue line separating civil society from wanton destruction.
A friend of mine is very much a Democrat, capital D.
Like…we obviously agree on most issues, but he’s a fairly centrist (American style) moderate Democrat who is active in working with and for his local party organization and basically while he might not like every single thing they do, he doesn’t dislike any of it enough to stop volunteering for the party, much less even think of voting anything other than party line.
This is one of the big areas where we’ve disagreed.
He’s of the same mindset as the comments we’ve replied to, often repeating the same rationale of, “Look, I get it, you want more progress and want different things than the main centrist moderate portion of the party. I get that and I agree with you. But you aren’t getting that with the other side, so what you need to do is vote for what we want in the center, and then once we’re in positions of power, that’s the only chance you have of getting what you want.”
To that I’ve often responded that progressives have tried that route for ages, and all it’s ever gotten them is a party that takes them for granted, and keeps making these far right boogymen to scare their left wing into votes. They’ve made it clear over and over again that they’ll never, ever move left or adopt any platform positions desired by the progressives until and unless those progressives withhold their support.
The party played chicken with progressives in 2016 and underestimated not only the resolve of the progressives but also the apathy of the moderate voters (which they also take for granted…as much as they like to paint the GOP as a party who’s identity is nothing more than anti whatever the Dems want, the Dems themselves have also become the party of “we deserve your vote simply because we’re not them”).
I’m very pleased that my district is currently represented by a progressive. She doesn’t always vote the way I feel on every issue, but even with that taken into account, I feel like she’s doing more to move the country in a direction I want than a centrist would have, and I’ll happily support her next fall.
As a counterpoint – the Democratic party is further left than it’s been in ages. There hasn’t been an administration that’s taken climate change more seriously than this. Topics championed by Progressives are discussed within the mainstream party and aspects are included. The infrastructure bill, inflation reduction act, and American rescue plan are all great examples of this.
This didn’t happen because progressives withheld their support. It’s because progressives gave their support. Bernie ultimately has been the ideological winner. It’s clear which direction the party is going. And it’s noteworthy that a big reason why he works so well with Biden is that they’re friends, or at least friendly colleagues. Biden was friendly to Sanders in the Senate, and that’s what opened the door. It’s cooperation and friendship that moves the policies we want forward.
This is just as much a lesson to moderates as well, that they need to be a lot more cooperative and conciliatory and way less antagonistic to progressives.
I continue to vote democrat straight down the ballot every time. Might as well, especially since I can mail in the ballot so it’s not like it’s much effort on my part, but I don’t see any avenue to send the message that I’m not satisfied with most of the party’s policies, which align mainly with the interests of the rich.
They claim that they’ll deliver if they can get power, but when they do get that power, it’s always conveniently blocked by the exact number of democrats that will magically flip to the other side in order to prevent it. Seems like if they do get a super majority, they’ll claim that they must be doing something right to gain such support and will thus stay the course. There just doesn’t seem to be a to voice disapproval in a way that matters. Here are Americans voicing their disapproval in a way that democrats can hear, but Biden continues to pledge overwhelming support for genocide, even though he has the power to do otherwise.
And in 4 years it’ll be another mediocre candidate who will be elected because they’re the lesser of two evils. It’s not like they’ve got statistics on their side.
The fact that “it’s not Trump” isn’t enough only shows how far US politics has fallen.
Would you be happy being imprisoned for life justifying it as “at least I’m not being actively tortured the whole time”? The richest country in the world can do a lot better, don’t settle for the bare minimum (and in many cases, less than the bare minimum).
Sounds like your own quote is contradicting your own point there, chief.
But yeah, you’re sadly in a ‘lesser of two evils’ situation. American foreign policy teaches that this usually gets fixed by assassinating one of the evils and waiting for the power vacuum to be filled by an even lesser evil - repeat until satisfied with the result. I suggest you guys get together and put that second amendment to work.