You can only have one or the other, not both, since they are inherently incompatible. People calling themselves communists, doesn’t mean that’s what they are.
I think theoretically communism requires a society with no state, but I think historically a vanguard party has come in and said “yeah we will do bureaucracy for a while and then dissolve the state” aaaaaand now you have a dictator and stazi and gestapo and thought crimes and a gulag. Oops 😋
So… You’re describing how they blatantly didn’t practice communism to… defend the continued use of the word to define them?
I don’t think you’re making the point you think you’re making… 🙄🤦♀️
(to be clear: trying to achieve communism, and actually doing it are very different things, and if you end up with an authoritarian regime, you’ve not achieved communism, no matter what you call it, it really isn’t complicated)
Only if you’re the kind who would argue that Hitler was a socialist, or that the CCP is communist.
Communism and socialism aren’t vague nebulous concepts, they are very well defined, and those definitions are, as stated above, inherently incompatible with tankies’ actions (or at least the actions they support and stand for), never mind that co-opting leftist language and ideas is a well known and documented tactic the right use to manipulate people in to supporting them, before they drop the mask to reveal their true authoritarian bigoted selves (ETA: even if a dictator started out meaning well, once they become a dictator, they’ve abandoned communism).
But sure, name an unrelated fallacy instead of thinking for yourself, that’s sure to end well… 🙄
Don’t feel too bad, at least you got to feel like you “got me” there for a millisecond!
(pasting this edit here too, to be clear: trying to achieve communism, and actually doing it are very different things, and if you end up with an authoritarian regime, you’ve not achieved communism, no matter what you call it, it really isn’t complicated)
How so? Communism ultimately describes a society where power is spread amongst the people, while authoritarianism describes a system where power is concentrated at the top. What could possibly be communist about an authoritarian regime?
Look at Indonesia in 1965–66 to see what happens to peaceful communists. Or Chile in 73. They’re rounded up and slaughtered by US-backed fascists. The reason ML theory prescribes a period of authoritarianism is to defend against this.
That’s entirely secondary to whether people get called communists. If everyone calls them communists, including themselves, it’s ultimately futile to try to call them anything else.
This kind of parsing is dangerous and its how bad actors are able to infiltrate and get into power. Yes totalitarian communists didnt practice it in their true form and were totalitarian dictatorships, but its dangerous to pretend like they didnt sprout organically from a communist movement, and didnt identify and define communism for decades.
Stalin wasnt a nazi no matter how much he fits the bill more and it’s important to recognize them in your ranks clawing for power and waiting to take advantage of good will.
You can only have one or the other, not both, since they are inherently incompatible. People calling themselves communists, doesn’t mean that’s what they are.
I think theoretically communism requires a society with no state, but I think historically a vanguard party has come in and said “yeah we will do bureaucracy for a while and then dissolve the state” aaaaaand now you have a dictator and stazi and gestapo and thought crimes and a gulag. Oops 😋
So… You’re describing how they blatantly didn’t practice communism to… defend the continued use of the word to define them?
I don’t think you’re making the point you think you’re making… 🙄🤦♀️
(to be clear: trying to achieve communism, and actually doing it are very different things, and if you end up with an authoritarian regime, you’ve not achieved communism, no matter what you call it, it really isn’t complicated)
Thanks for the clarification, yeah I agree
Bit of a no true scotsman discussion.
Only if you’re the kind who would argue that Hitler was a socialist, or that the CCP is communist.
Communism and socialism aren’t vague nebulous concepts, they are very well defined, and those definitions are, as stated above, inherently incompatible with tankies’ actions (or at least the actions they support and stand for), never mind that co-opting leftist language and ideas is a well known and documented tactic the right use to manipulate people in to supporting them, before they drop the mask to reveal their true authoritarian bigoted selves (ETA: even if a dictator started out meaning well, once they become a dictator, they’ve abandoned communism).
But sure, name an unrelated fallacy instead of thinking for yourself, that’s sure to end well… 🙄
Don’t feel too bad, at least you got to feel like you “got me” there for a millisecond!
(pasting this edit here too, to be clear: trying to achieve communism, and actually doing it are very different things, and if you end up with an authoritarian regime, you’ve not achieved communism, no matter what you call it, it really isn’t complicated)
How so? Communism ultimately describes a society where power is spread amongst the people, while authoritarianism describes a system where power is concentrated at the top. What could possibly be communist about an authoritarian regime?
Look at Indonesia in 1965–66 to see what happens to peaceful communists. Or Chile in 73. They’re rounded up and slaughtered by US-backed fascists. The reason ML theory prescribes a period of authoritarianism is to defend against this.
Removed by mod
That’s entirely secondary to whether people get called communists. If everyone calls them communists, including themselves, it’s ultimately futile to try to call them anything else.
North Korea calls itself democratic, does that make it so? No.
I too believe that anarcho-monarchism is valid and not at all contradictory
This kind of parsing is dangerous and its how bad actors are able to infiltrate and get into power. Yes totalitarian communists didnt practice it in their true form and were totalitarian dictatorships, but its dangerous to pretend like they didnt sprout organically from a communist movement, and didnt identify and define communism for decades.
Stalin wasnt a nazi no matter how much he fits the bill more and it’s important to recognize them in your ranks clawing for power and waiting to take advantage of good will.