Yes, and that is exactly the moral dilemma Tolkien had. He believed that killing orcs are wrong unless there is a very good reason, so he would have thought it was wrong to kill demons unless there is a very good reason.
I don’t think he does. The whole point of Sauron trying to enslave Middle Earth is exactly the justification you need for the mass slaughter of the “enemy”. If the orcs were spending the days idly farming and smoking hobbit pipes, you would have a whole other argument against genocide.
Why is that sad? The depiction of demons as creatures that are incapable of empathy and exploit human compassion as an evolutionary strategy is interesting and makes for good drama and moral conflicts in the show. I’m honestly tired of the standard plot about demons just being misunderstood poor little babies that humans bully for seemingly no reason. I understand why that is a popular theme - it resonates with most of our own history after all, but it’s been done to absolute death.
They are shown to have morality and free will, so there are some who can follow and believe our morality. Every time Frieren fires first she is in the wrong.
I would also enjoy that kind of story, but then the author wanted to make demons interesting and gave them free will and morality. This is what ruins the show for me.
They do have free will but where have you seen any depiction of morality as humans understand it? You also need to understand that a characters thoughts and actions are up to your own interpretation and do not necessarily reflect the authors opinions. Even if I were to disagree with Frieren the character as strongly as you seem to, then it still wouldn’t detract from my enjoyment of the show. I don’t need my entertainment to regurgitate my own morals to me.
The morality I speak of is the one of hierarchy and magical power. The fact that they have both a moral system and free will means that they can chose to adopt another moral system. Frieren can’t know if every demon follows the same system.
Other people have already provides detailed examples, while you have not, in this thread AND one 2 weeks ago. I don’t see any point in arguing with you because you’ve clearly decided you don’t like the show and that’s ok, but going on every thread where frieren comes up and insisting it’s glorifying actual human genocide is ridiculous and exhausting.
Sorry to say this, but this a genuine belief I have that makes me unable to enjoy Frieren :(
I hope that the writer solves this conundrum by either making it clear that demons don’t have free will, or make it so that Frieren doesn’t want to commit a genocide.
Frieren’s emotions on the matter are addressed in episode 7.
Episode 7 and 8
The demons acted as peace envoys.
Its turns out that was a lie to get the humans to turn off the magic force field so they could attack with their demon armies.
Frieren’s indifference to killing demons is shown to be a necessity for survival.
It can be a bit hard to wrap our heads around. Humans don’t really face natural predators anymore, so it can be tough for many of us to imagine the kill or get eaten life style.
Imagine if man-eating spiders started to talk to us, transformed to look like us and became our friends only so we’d let our guard down and open the door to the their spider army.
Humans squash bugs indifferently all the time. To Frieren, demons are man-eating bugs that need squashing.
As for free will, the demons we see do seem have free will, which they use to kill humans, again its a kill or be killed world. It’s about survival, not a senseless eradication of a group of people.
Qual from ep2 seemed like a nice guy, until you remember he invited the killing spell is being executed for the mass-muder of humans, 80 years in the past.
If Frieren doesn’t kill the demons, the demons will kill them.
The difference between child Hitler and a demon, is that Frieren knows what the demon will do in the future, just like we know what happens when you release a hungry lion in a room full of antalope.
Frieren might be shooting first in the battle, but the demons shot first in the war.
The demons use human sympathy to gain trust and it works. You feel for them, you want to protect them, may even be attracted to them, and give them a chance and that’s their whole stick. They’re just hungry lions that transformed to look like their prey.
Hitler, and the Nazis, had believed that certain groups of people were inferior and a that only a superior race should exist.
So what did the rest of the world do? Those that could fight, fought back to survive and protect those that couldn’t.
If we’re going to compare roles;
Demon king is Hitler, demons are the Nazi forces, Frieren and her party are the allied forces. In the show Frieren is defeating the remnants of an active terrorist cell following in the footsteps of the demon king/Hitler.
If you try to put Frieren in the Hitler role, it doesnt make sense. She doesn’t go from town to town murdering anything that’s not an elf. She’s not gaining followers to take over the kingdoms.
You could call Frieren racist towards demons; but if a group murdered your entire village, and you watch them do it to countless others over a thousand years, never meeting a “nice” demon, you’d provably learn to shoot first too.
I don’t want to campare her with the nazis, just that she personally wants a genocide (the extermination of all demons regardless if they are evil or not).
Macht abstained from killing humans for decades, so it’s not like this is a biological need, it’s something they choos. So by this logic there can be demons who doesn’t want to kill at all. If Frieren encountered such a demon she would not hesitate to murder them, even if they are more innocent than herself.
Yes, Frieren’s actions towards demons brings us to an excellent philosophical question.
Is it morally right to exterminate an entire species? Of course not.
Does that morality shift when that same species is also seeking to exterminate you? I’d argue not, but it becomes a necessary task to protect yourself and those on your side of the war.
This debate seems to be explored with the demon Match. I haven’t read the manga, so I don’t know anything beside your description of the character (and I ask you to avoid further spoilers).
Yes, if Frieren murders this innocent demon, that would be a tragedy. However, that’s a tragedy of war. A solider mistook an innocent man as a enemy solider.
In this magic world, Frieren can detect the demon, it’d be like the innocent man was wearing a solder’s vest to keep warm. To an outsider who has been conditioned by war to see the enemy flag and shoot without asking question, that’s what they are going to do.
I think that we are able to have such a debate, simply based around an elf and her detached murder of demons is part of what makes Frieren an intriguing piece of storytelling. Frieren is a clearly flawed main character and the story is exploring many of them, not always telling us right from wrong, we are left to decide that for selves.
I don’t know how Macth’s character will be explored in relation to Frieren. I predict there are two paths, the first is the easy one, she learns to trust and bonds with the demon. Trust has been a major theme through the show, to explore is with Frieren’s natural enemy would be very interesting.
The other route I could see explored, Frieren learns of his abstinent through the villagers who know his history, what he is and the of the bonds they have formed over many decades…well had. To the villagers’ horror, Frieren has killed the one they have learned to call family, and she is forced to face the consequences of taking a life that others valued.
Or perhaps there is a third path, something that goes against my guesses and will surprise me.
Thank you, I really apriciate that you see where I’m coming from :3
While I still think that Frieren is too extreme in her beliefs, I do see where you’re coming from. I think my main issue comes from the fact that the author seems to want to make her philosophy justified but at the same time giving the demons too much autonomy when it comes to their need of hunting humans.
I don’t want to spoil anything as I want you to enjoy the story, but I would be really interest what your thoughts are on Macht when the next season comes out :3
Yes, it is a war. Almost all demons they meet (and kill) are soldiers. But Frieren’s philosophy is one of total annihilation. She wants to kill all demons, no matter if they’ve killed or not.
The problem is that the author seems to want to make this philosophy the morally just one in universe while at the same time giving demons the ability to chose if they want to kill or not. I’m more irritated at the author for not thinking things through.
Frieren reminds me of my readings about the 19th century Texas Rangers (see Cult of Glory (2020) by Doug J. Swanson) and how Native Americans were literally seen as vermin to be exterminated, even if they assisted in exterminating other indigenous. In real life, a lack of communication and 15th century epidemics divided indigenous peoples who could have otherwise defended their sovereignty; once indigenous children learned the conquering host people’s language (English) and affirmative action applied to close egregious wealth gaps, indigenous people have proved to be ordinary people with another skin color (evidence: me, a member of the Navajo Nation). Frieren, in contrast, portrays a demon child as being irredeemably evil even though they learn the host language and are given second chances and extra attention (by the Himmel); the author implies there is some cognitive divide due to demons being solitary creatures who raise and teach themselves from a very early age (presumably much earlier than the failed experiment Himmel performed); however, that subtlety isn’t emphasized and demons are more akin to starfish aliens than people.
Overall, I think provoking controversy and discussion around this point is valuable because it invites people to debate the nature of Otherness. In which ways can a person be different enough before they stop being people? What exactly are the differences between “person” and “beast”? Is focusing on those differences the root cause of genocide? Do we hesitate to relax the requirements to be considered a person because we dislike the economic consequences? (e.g. the horror of teaching factory farmed animals to speak)
I personally consider demons in Frieren analogous to indigenous before colonizing powers, albeit sustained by their long life spans and tendency to independently discover powerful technology (magic). I doubt the author is thinking very hard along these lines, and so fear they will fall back on tried and true story patterns in which animalistic heathens are purged to make way for civilization. But I hope to be surprised.
Thank you, that’s a very nice writeup. I agree with you that the author probably isn’t thinking as hard as, for example Tolkien did with his orcs. However, I wouldn’t compare the demons in Frieren to indigenous people in america. It’s clear that many demons are really violent, however, even if a lot, or even a majority, of demons are evil, we can’t condem their entire race.
Sadly, Frieren justifies genocide against creatures with free will and intelligence.
And so does Lord of the Rings. It’s fantasy, having obviously good people and obviously bad people you kill without remorse is part of the genre.
Yes, and that is exactly the moral dilemma Tolkien had. He believed that killing orcs are wrong unless there is a very good reason, so he would have thought it was wrong to kill demons unless there is a very good reason.
I think the orcs/demons being hell-bent on killing humans is a sufficiently good reason.
Tolkien disagrees with you.
I don’t think he does. The whole point of Sauron trying to enslave Middle Earth is exactly the justification you need for the mass slaughter of the “enemy”. If the orcs were spending the days idly farming and smoking hobbit pipes, you would have a whole other argument against genocide.
Did you read the wiki page I sent? Fighting an army isn’t the same as committing a genocide.
Why is that sad? The depiction of demons as creatures that are incapable of empathy and exploit human compassion as an evolutionary strategy is interesting and makes for good drama and moral conflicts in the show. I’m honestly tired of the standard plot about demons just being misunderstood poor little babies that humans bully for seemingly no reason. I understand why that is a popular theme - it resonates with most of our own history after all, but it’s been done to absolute death.
They are shown to have morality and free will, so there are some who can follow and believe our morality. Every time Frieren fires first she is in the wrong.
I would also enjoy that kind of story, but then the author wanted to make demons interesting and gave them free will and morality. This is what ruins the show for me.
They do have free will but where have you seen any depiction of morality as humans understand it? You also need to understand that a characters thoughts and actions are up to your own interpretation and do not necessarily reflect the authors opinions. Even if I were to disagree with Frieren the character as strongly as you seem to, then it still wouldn’t detract from my enjoyment of the show. I don’t need my entertainment to regurgitate my own morals to me.
The morality I speak of is the one of hierarchy and magical power. The fact that they have both a moral system and free will means that they can chose to adopt another moral system. Frieren can’t know if every demon follows the same system.
You either haven’t watched or are making up headcanon to justify your opinion.
What disagreement do you have with what I’ve said? I’ve watched the anime and even read through the manga, up to when they defeat the golden demon.
Other people have already provides detailed examples, while you have not, in this thread AND one 2 weeks ago. I don’t see any point in arguing with you because you’ve clearly decided you don’t like the show and that’s ok, but going on every thread where frieren comes up and insisting it’s glorifying actual human genocide is ridiculous and exhausting.
I just want the author to think before he makes a character who unambiguously wants a genocide.
Are characters only allowed to be perfectly moral, or something?
No, but the author seems to want to paint Frieren like she’s is.
you dropped this, /s
Sorry to say this, but this a genuine belief I have that makes me unable to enjoy Frieren :(
I hope that the writer solves this conundrum by either making it clear that demons don’t have free will, or make it so that Frieren doesn’t want to commit a genocide.
Frieren’s emotions on the matter are addressed in episode 7.
Episode 7 and 8
The demons acted as peace envoys.
Its turns out that was a lie to get the humans to turn off the magic force field so they could attack with their demon armies.
Frieren’s indifference to killing demons is shown to be a necessity for survival.
It can be a bit hard to wrap our heads around. Humans don’t really face natural predators anymore, so it can be tough for many of us to imagine the kill or get eaten life style.
Imagine if man-eating spiders started to talk to us, transformed to look like us and became our friends only so we’d let our guard down and open the door to the their spider army. Humans squash bugs indifferently all the time. To Frieren, demons are man-eating bugs that need squashing.
As for free will, the demons we see do seem have free will, which they use to kill humans, again its a kill or be killed world. It’s about survival, not a senseless eradication of a group of people.
Qual from ep2 seemed like a nice guy, until you remember he invited the killing spell is being executed for the mass-muder of humans, 80 years in the past.
If I, a known child killer, fails to kill a child, and that child grows up to become Hitler. I am then not justified in the murder I attempted.
As long as the demons have free will Frieren will always be in the wrong for shooting first.
If Frieren doesn’t kill the demons, the demons will kill them. The difference between child Hitler and a demon, is that Frieren knows what the demon will do in the future, just like we know what happens when you release a hungry lion in a room full of antalope.
Frieren might be shooting first in the battle, but the demons shot first in the war.
The demons use human sympathy to gain trust and it works. You feel for them, you want to protect them, may even be attracted to them, and give them a chance and that’s their whole stick. They’re just hungry lions that transformed to look like their prey.
Hitler, and the Nazis, had believed that certain groups of people were inferior and a that only a superior race should exist. So what did the rest of the world do? Those that could fight, fought back to survive and protect those that couldn’t.
If we’re going to compare roles; Demon king is Hitler, demons are the Nazi forces, Frieren and her party are the allied forces. In the show Frieren is defeating the remnants of an active terrorist cell following in the footsteps of the demon king/Hitler.
If you try to put Frieren in the Hitler role, it doesnt make sense. She doesn’t go from town to town murdering anything that’s not an elf. She’s not gaining followers to take over the kingdoms.
You could call Frieren racist towards demons; but if a group murdered your entire village, and you watch them do it to countless others over a thousand years, never meeting a “nice” demon, you’d provably learn to shoot first too.
I don’t want to campare her with the nazis, just that she personally wants a genocide (the extermination of all demons regardless if they are evil or not).
Macht abstained from killing humans for decades, so it’s not like this is a biological need, it’s something they choos. So by this logic there can be demons who doesn’t want to kill at all. If Frieren encountered such a demon she would not hesitate to murder them, even if they are more innocent than herself.
Yes, Frieren’s actions towards demons brings us to an excellent philosophical question. Is it morally right to exterminate an entire species? Of course not. Does that morality shift when that same species is also seeking to exterminate you? I’d argue not, but it becomes a necessary task to protect yourself and those on your side of the war.
This debate seems to be explored with the demon Match. I haven’t read the manga, so I don’t know anything beside your description of the character (and I ask you to avoid further spoilers).
Yes, if Frieren murders this innocent demon, that would be a tragedy. However, that’s a tragedy of war. A solider mistook an innocent man as a enemy solider. In this magic world, Frieren can detect the demon, it’d be like the innocent man was wearing a solder’s vest to keep warm. To an outsider who has been conditioned by war to see the enemy flag and shoot without asking question, that’s what they are going to do.
I think that we are able to have such a debate, simply based around an elf and her detached murder of demons is part of what makes Frieren an intriguing piece of storytelling. Frieren is a clearly flawed main character and the story is exploring many of them, not always telling us right from wrong, we are left to decide that for selves.
I don’t know how Macth’s character will be explored in relation to Frieren. I predict there are two paths, the first is the easy one, she learns to trust and bonds with the demon. Trust has been a major theme through the show, to explore is with Frieren’s natural enemy would be very interesting.
The other route I could see explored, Frieren learns of his abstinent through the villagers who know his history, what he is and the of the bonds they have formed over many decades…well had. To the villagers’ horror, Frieren has killed the one they have learned to call family, and she is forced to face the consequences of taking a life that others valued.
Or perhaps there is a third path, something that goes against my guesses and will surprise me.
Thank you, I really apriciate that you see where I’m coming from :3
While I still think that Frieren is too extreme in her beliefs, I do see where you’re coming from. I think my main issue comes from the fact that the author seems to want to make her philosophy justified but at the same time giving the demons too much autonomy when it comes to their need of hunting humans.
I don’t want to spoil anything as I want you to enjoy the story, but I would be really interest what your thoughts are on Macht when the next season comes out :3
As someone who hasn’t watched frieren, this seems more like a war than a genocide
Yes, it is a war. Almost all demons they meet (and kill) are soldiers. But Frieren’s philosophy is one of total annihilation. She wants to kill all demons, no matter if they’ve killed or not.
The problem is that the author seems to want to make this philosophy the morally just one in universe while at the same time giving demons the ability to chose if they want to kill or not. I’m more irritated at the author for not thinking things through.
Frieren reminds me of my readings about the 19th century Texas Rangers (see Cult of Glory (2020) by Doug J. Swanson) and how Native Americans were literally seen as vermin to be exterminated, even if they assisted in exterminating other indigenous. In real life, a lack of communication and 15th century epidemics divided indigenous peoples who could have otherwise defended their sovereignty; once indigenous children learned the conquering host people’s language (English) and affirmative action applied to close egregious wealth gaps, indigenous people have proved to be ordinary people with another skin color (evidence: me, a member of the Navajo Nation). Frieren, in contrast, portrays a demon child as being irredeemably evil even though they learn the host language and are given second chances and extra attention (by the Himmel); the author implies there is some cognitive divide due to demons being solitary creatures who raise and teach themselves from a very early age (presumably much earlier than the failed experiment Himmel performed); however, that subtlety isn’t emphasized and demons are more akin to starfish aliens than people.
Overall, I think provoking controversy and discussion around this point is valuable because it invites people to debate the nature of Otherness. In which ways can a person be different enough before they stop being people? What exactly are the differences between “person” and “beast”? Is focusing on those differences the root cause of genocide? Do we hesitate to relax the requirements to be considered a person because we dislike the economic consequences? (e.g. the horror of teaching factory farmed animals to speak)
I personally consider demons in Frieren analogous to indigenous before colonizing powers, albeit sustained by their long life spans and tendency to independently discover powerful technology (magic). I doubt the author is thinking very hard along these lines, and so fear they will fall back on tried and true story patterns in which animalistic heathens are purged to make way for civilization. But I hope to be surprised.
Thank you, that’s a very nice writeup. I agree with you that the author probably isn’t thinking as hard as, for example Tolkien did with his orcs. However, I wouldn’t compare the demons in Frieren to indigenous people in america. It’s clear that many demons are really violent, however, even if a lot, or even a majority, of demons are evil, we can’t condem their entire race.
I do think there are valuable conversations to be had about the concept of a creature that is considered ontologically evil and wholly irredeemable.
But I also think reducing that conversation to “Frieren bad” sucks.