Because the right-wing saturation of platforms like YouTube was so central to my becoming a reactionary, I believe that creating a competing left-wing presence in online spaces should be a priority for the Left. Currently, conservatives enjoy a nearly unchallenged role in grabbing young men who may very well be supportive of progressive movements, but whose lack of community drives them away from collective politicking. This needs to change.
It’s really refreshing to see a suggestion for how to help solve the right-wing rabbit hole problem other than just blaming “education” and saying it needs to be fixed (not that I think fixing education isn’t the answer, I just don’t think that it is the only answer). Something I’ve been asking myself since the 2016 election is, what the hell are we going to do about what is happening to our society that is turning people towards hate, bigotry, selfishness and cruelty? Sure, we can try to educate people, but there will always be folks that turn away from public education. Additionally, here’s only a fraction of us who attend some form of higher education that might expose us to information that might bring some out of a selfish world view. Meanwhile, all that right wing content has flooded the internet, just waiting to enthrall folks who don’t have direction.
Fighting back by introducing an equal (or even greater?) amount of content that opposes hateful ideology is not a bad idea at all as a method to try and catch these folks before they fall into these dark rabbit holes.
This isn’t an actual fix, though. The reason left wingers don’t have the presence the right does on Facebook, YouTube, etc isn’t because of a lack of voices or audiences - it’s because of deliberate manipulation of what is put in front of people. There isn’t really a solution besides finally coming to terms with the fact that the right offers nothing useful and completely and utterly salting their ideology from the earth. And dismantling tech giants, ofc
The reason left wingers don’t have the presence the right does on Facebook, YouTube, etc isn’t because of a lack of voices or audiences - it’s because of deliberate manipulation of what is put in front of people.
I recently have gotten into wasting tons of hours on YouTube shorts, and I was very surprised that after a grand total of maybe 12 hours of using the platform, Andrew Tate content was just shoehorned into the algorithm of shorts being presented to me. Up to this point in time I was watching cosmetics, baking cookies, comedy, cooking, just funny hot takes, but then completely out of the blue one day that guy’s ugly ass monkey face was on my phone, and even though it was so quick that I couldn’t even think of his name, my lizard braid already recognized that he is very dangerous to women, so I opened the menu to select the feature on YouTube that prevents those channels from being promoted to me ever again.
There is 0% chance that the content that I had previously been watching links up in the algorithm to Ben Shapiro, Jordan Peterson, Joe Rogan, or Andrew Tate. This leads me to believe that YouTube intentionally carves out space for these content creators and makes promises about getting their content in front of everybody’s eyeballs, regardless of level of interest in that type of content.
Once an algorithm is understood it can be manipulated. Russia and the right-wing figured out how to tie Trump videos to other popular videos to recommend it to other unsuspecting users. I get recommended right-wing videos while watching unrelated videos. It’s algorithm manipulation. It’s an endless battle for Google.
I watch a lot of YouTube content and almost none of it is political either way. Mostly it’s how-to videos, science videos, or music videos. I’ve noticed two things lately concerning alt-right recommendations - First is, I get alt-right videos recommended when I visit a creator who in addition to their “normal” content has one or more videos that espouse right wing commentary. I recently fell into a rabbit hole of watching reaction videos of people reacting to a band I like and watched a reaction from a channel called LFR Family. Unknown to me since I was just watching one video about a music reaction this channel is run by very pro-trump people and they have several political videos. After I finished the video and went back to the YT home page every other video was a right wing propaganda piece. The second way I’ve started to get the right wing recommendations is by watching several stand up comedy videos in a row.
What’s kind of weird to me is that the very little political content I watch is ostensibly left wing.
I will echo what another user in this thread said and assume that it’s because of standup comedy I’ve seen. However, I usually swipe through the clearly right wing comedians or people whose jokes are like bitching about wokism.
What’s kind of weird to me is that the very little political content I watch is ostensibly left wing.
Same for me. I assume the propagandists have found a correlation between standup and people they can influence. I don’t watch right wing stand up either in fact I purposely click don’t recommend on anything right leaning when I do see it.
On a semi related note, I have just noticed in the last 4 days that there are a bunch of rap and black reaction channels giving a favorable reaction to that country song that was just taken off CMT. I actually took the time and watched some of them in an incognito tab and the reactions are suspiciously similar. The hundreds of comments on these videos are all the same and from users with names like suziwpgt3 or other bot type names. I can’t put into words the dismay I feel about the danger of people feeling validated by these obviously faked or paid for reviews.
So since starting this thread, I had to change my login account to a professional account on my phone, and then after I was done I switched back to my personal account. All of my " do not recommend settings " have completely reset. I’m seeing videos on shorts that were shown to me two months ago. I’m getting recommendations for Ben Shapiro, his fucking sister, people doing interviews with Jeffree Star and his problematic ass. I can’t believe that the algorithm totally resets just because you switch accounts! I have to start all over again trying to take the trash out.
I think something changed in the last few days overall with YT. I have been getting recommendations for videos I watched 4 or 5 years ago and they show as unwatched.
The YouTube algo is fucking insane. You click a video or two that you didn’t know was a rightwing nutjob because it had an interesting title and you basically have to delete your account and start over. That shit never ends, it’s just bizarre.
Like I’ve watched hundreds of leftwing videos, but YouTube just does not stop throwing conservative trash my way. I have to search for political videos I agree with. Ones I don’t are just in my face, always. I really don’t understand what they’re trying to do. It never suggests new videos from channels I’m subscribed to most of the time. But Nazi woman hating shit? I always need to see more angry Nazi shit.
Yup, real solutions usually aren’t sexy and don’t make good sound bites. Lot’s of people are unhappy with life and the idea of being able to fix it themselves with direct action is a very appealing concept. Telling someone their problems are causes by a complex mixture of cultural factors and government policy doesn’t give people the instant gratification of hearing that it’s the “others” fault.
A guy in a lambo yelling about how women and jews are the real issue is always going to get more attention than a well constructed and reasonable argument on economic policy.
I originally heard this idea about why so many big start ups end with massive fraud but I think it applies here too. The start ups that create reasonable goals and timelines don’t get funding because someone else is willing to lie and promise more. By the time it’s clear they can’t deliver on the promised results, the honest company is out of business. Same in politics, one side is honest, the other side is willing to say whatever they think will win you over no matter if it’s true. Obviously one will be more appealing because it’s designed to be, but that doesn’t mean it has any merit.
I primarily watch Destiny 2, sim racing stuff, Nori Yaro and Juicebox Unboxed (drifting channels) and youtube recommends me so many channels which are Angry-Bald-White-Dude-With-A-Beard-Wearing-Oakleys-In-A-Pickup-That-Has-Never-Been-Used-For-Work-But-My-God-He-Is-Assmad-At-The-Latest-Thing-To-Be-Mad-At-And-He-Is-Very-Angry-And-Wants-To-Share-It-With-You-To-Save-Western-Democracy. What on earth does this have to do with any of my other video interests? Youtube is pushing people towards this shite, and it doesn’t matter how many times you tell them to not show this video, not interested in this content creator, not interested in this topic, they will keep on being recommended. I don’t think it’s appropriate to follow up a video about drifting Toyota’s around Ebisu Circuit with one about how based Marge Traitor Green is.
It won’t work. The left-wing tried it with on-air radio and failed. The right-wing has the financial pool from billionaires to fund all their right-wing grifters while the left media personalities have to rely on grassroots support. There are other factors as well, but money is the biggest issue.
i’m a progressive leftist type… and half the time i feel alienated from my own politics because so much of it is basically anti-male anti-white hate jerking where i am told that anything i may say is oppressive to those of ‘marginalized identities’.
i seriously don’t blame young guys for being so hopeless. nobody will give them any positive direction or reinforcement other than charlatans who are looking to exploit them. it’s fucking dark.
i’m so glad my wayward 20s were 20 years ago when social media was not a thing. i had to sort out my shit in person with friends, not on the internet with strangers.
but as a 40 something guy now, i can tell you that NOBODY wants me involved in anything anymore. even my own social groups have taken to being like ‘we have too many white men, they are bad, we need to attract more people of color and women and trans people because they are special and good by default and white men are bad by default’. it’s infuriating and depressing that i’m basically told to f off when I want to contribute to my community.
i should also say i’m working-class, and that is just like… insta banned/hated if that ever comes up from my leftist people. who are typically upper middle class people pretending to be working-class for fun.
i can tell you that NOBODY wants me involved in anything anymore. even my own social groups have taken to being like ‘we have too many white men, they are bad, we need to attract more people of color and women and trans people because they are special and good by default and white men are bad by default’. it’s infuriating and depressing that i’m basically told to f off when I want to contribute to my community.
I don’t doubt that you find the left’s current politic alienating in and of itself (lord knows it can be bewildering), but I have SERIOUS doubts that reality is anything like what you’re describing here. I’m a gun-toting, outdoor-type leftist whose predominantly queer/non-white friends (I live in a big city) always find me more of a novelty than a threat. They look at me like through the walls of a fishbowl, unable to understand a lot of what I believe but also appreciative that I’m an ally on core issues that matter to them. Not once has anyone ever looked at me or any of my other cis white male friends and told them to fuck off unless it’s someone coming in with a chip on their shoulder who feels like they need to prove something by being a confrontational asshole. I suggest you reflect less on what you feel like people believe about you when you’re not around and more on how they treat you when you are. They’re not nearly as threatened or upset by you as you think.
and that is just like… insta banned/hated if that ever comes up from my leftist people. who are typically upper middle class people pretending to be working-class for fun.
The way you phrase this tells me you’re gleaning many of your conclusions from online spaces, rather than face-to-face real life. That’s probably why you feel the way you do. I actually have serious doubts that you have any meaningful personal relationships with leftists who aren’t cartoons or provocateurs. Perhaps the way you’re received online has to do with the fact that your stories are so over-the-top and on-the-nose as to seem deliberately hyperbolic.
Thank you. That comment felt like something that escaped from r/walkaway, just totally made up, and I didn’t want to respond. You’ve done so beautifully!
That’s because he’s using pretty much every trope/straw man that we have come to see from bad actors. He starts off with the classic “As a leftist…” then goes on to lament his social group becoming too woke, then finishes strong by declaring that he is just a working class Joe that actual leftists wouldn’t understand.
Not once has anyone ever looked at me or any of my other cis white male friends and told them to fuck off unless it’s someone coming in with a chip on their shoulder who feels like they need to prove something by being a confrontational asshole.
We should all take this textbook example of sock puppetry to heart. I’m sorry, but there just aren’t “progressive leftist types” who are also “it’s the working class, straight, middle-aged white men who are the <real> oppressed minority” types. Like point me to one thing progressive about anything in this comment if that’s who you are. Point me to one thing you said other than “I’m a lib, promise!” that couldn’t have come straight out of Jordan Peterson’s or Scott Adam’s whiny ass mouths. Get outta here with that bad faith “I’m liberal but all the trans and black and female people are mean to me and don’t listen and don’t want me around” boohoo nonsense
It’s really refreshing to see a suggestion for how to help solve the right-wing rabbit hole problem other than just blaming “education” and saying it needs to be fixed (not that I think fixing education isn’t the answer, I just don’t think that it is the only answer). Something I’ve been asking myself since the 2016 election is, what the hell are we going to do about what is happening to our society that is turning people towards hate, bigotry, selfishness and cruelty? Sure, we can try to educate people, but there will always be folks that turn away from public education. Additionally, here’s only a fraction of us who attend some form of higher education that might expose us to information that might bring some out of a selfish world view. Meanwhile, all that right wing content has flooded the internet, just waiting to enthrall folks who don’t have direction.
Fighting back by introducing an equal (or even greater?) amount of content that opposes hateful ideology is not a bad idea at all as a method to try and catch these folks before they fall into these dark rabbit holes.
This isn’t an actual fix, though. The reason left wingers don’t have the presence the right does on Facebook, YouTube, etc isn’t because of a lack of voices or audiences - it’s because of deliberate manipulation of what is put in front of people. There isn’t really a solution besides finally coming to terms with the fact that the right offers nothing useful and completely and utterly salting their ideology from the earth. And dismantling tech giants, ofc
I recently have gotten into wasting tons of hours on YouTube shorts, and I was very surprised that after a grand total of maybe 12 hours of using the platform, Andrew Tate content was just shoehorned into the algorithm of shorts being presented to me. Up to this point in time I was watching cosmetics, baking cookies, comedy, cooking, just funny hot takes, but then completely out of the blue one day that guy’s ugly ass monkey face was on my phone, and even though it was so quick that I couldn’t even think of his name, my lizard braid already recognized that he is very dangerous to women, so I opened the menu to select the feature on YouTube that prevents those channels from being promoted to me ever again.
There is 0% chance that the content that I had previously been watching links up in the algorithm to Ben Shapiro, Jordan Peterson, Joe Rogan, or Andrew Tate. This leads me to believe that YouTube intentionally carves out space for these content creators and makes promises about getting their content in front of everybody’s eyeballs, regardless of level of interest in that type of content.
Once an algorithm is understood it can be manipulated. Russia and the right-wing figured out how to tie Trump videos to other popular videos to recommend it to other unsuspecting users. I get recommended right-wing videos while watching unrelated videos. It’s algorithm manipulation. It’s an endless battle for Google.
I watch a lot of YouTube content and almost none of it is political either way. Mostly it’s how-to videos, science videos, or music videos. I’ve noticed two things lately concerning alt-right recommendations - First is, I get alt-right videos recommended when I visit a creator who in addition to their “normal” content has one or more videos that espouse right wing commentary. I recently fell into a rabbit hole of watching reaction videos of people reacting to a band I like and watched a reaction from a channel called LFR Family. Unknown to me since I was just watching one video about a music reaction this channel is run by very pro-trump people and they have several political videos. After I finished the video and went back to the YT home page every other video was a right wing propaganda piece. The second way I’ve started to get the right wing recommendations is by watching several stand up comedy videos in a row.
What’s kind of weird to me is that the very little political content I watch is ostensibly left wing.
I will echo what another user in this thread said and assume that it’s because of standup comedy I’ve seen. However, I usually swipe through the clearly right wing comedians or people whose jokes are like bitching about wokism.
Same for me. I assume the propagandists have found a correlation between standup and people they can influence. I don’t watch right wing stand up either in fact I purposely click don’t recommend on anything right leaning when I do see it.
On a semi related note, I have just noticed in the last 4 days that there are a bunch of rap and black reaction channels giving a favorable reaction to that country song that was just taken off CMT. I actually took the time and watched some of them in an incognito tab and the reactions are suspiciously similar. The hundreds of comments on these videos are all the same and from users with names like suziwpgt3 or other bot type names. I can’t put into words the dismay I feel about the danger of people feeling validated by these obviously faked or paid for reviews.
Wow, that’s on another level.
So since starting this thread, I had to change my login account to a professional account on my phone, and then after I was done I switched back to my personal account. All of my " do not recommend settings " have completely reset. I’m seeing videos on shorts that were shown to me two months ago. I’m getting recommendations for Ben Shapiro, his fucking sister, people doing interviews with Jeffree Star and his problematic ass. I can’t believe that the algorithm totally resets just because you switch accounts! I have to start all over again trying to take the trash out.
I think something changed in the last few days overall with YT. I have been getting recommendations for videos I watched 4 or 5 years ago and they show as unwatched.
The YouTube algo is fucking insane. You click a video or two that you didn’t know was a rightwing nutjob because it had an interesting title and you basically have to delete your account and start over. That shit never ends, it’s just bizarre.
Like I’ve watched hundreds of leftwing videos, but YouTube just does not stop throwing conservative trash my way. I have to search for political videos I agree with. Ones I don’t are just in my face, always. I really don’t understand what they’re trying to do. It never suggests new videos from channels I’m subscribed to most of the time. But Nazi woman hating shit? I always need to see more angry Nazi shit.
Just delete your watch history. That’s a lot easier, also make sure to downvote those videos so they don’t come back.
You can take it except further by clearing out your YouTube search history as well.
Yup, real solutions usually aren’t sexy and don’t make good sound bites. Lot’s of people are unhappy with life and the idea of being able to fix it themselves with direct action is a very appealing concept. Telling someone their problems are causes by a complex mixture of cultural factors and government policy doesn’t give people the instant gratification of hearing that it’s the “others” fault.
A guy in a lambo yelling about how women and jews are the real issue is always going to get more attention than a well constructed and reasonable argument on economic policy.
I originally heard this idea about why so many big start ups end with massive fraud but I think it applies here too. The start ups that create reasonable goals and timelines don’t get funding because someone else is willing to lie and promise more. By the time it’s clear they can’t deliver on the promised results, the honest company is out of business. Same in politics, one side is honest, the other side is willing to say whatever they think will win you over no matter if it’s true. Obviously one will be more appealing because it’s designed to be, but that doesn’t mean it has any merit.
I primarily watch Destiny 2, sim racing stuff, Nori Yaro and Juicebox Unboxed (drifting channels) and youtube recommends me so many channels which are Angry-Bald-White-Dude-With-A-Beard-Wearing-Oakleys-In-A-Pickup-That-Has-Never-Been-Used-For-Work-But-My-God-He-Is-Assmad-At-The-Latest-Thing-To-Be-Mad-At-And-He-Is-Very-Angry-And-Wants-To-Share-It-With-You-To-Save-Western-Democracy. What on earth does this have to do with any of my other video interests? Youtube is pushing people towards this shite, and it doesn’t matter how many times you tell them to not show this video, not interested in this content creator, not interested in this topic, they will keep on being recommended. I don’t think it’s appropriate to follow up a video about drifting Toyota’s around Ebisu Circuit with one about how based Marge Traitor Green is.
You know, I have to admit, you have an excellent point there. Damn.
It won’t work. The left-wing tried it with on-air radio and failed. The right-wing has the financial pool from billionaires to fund all their right-wing grifters while the left media personalities have to rely on grassroots support. There are other factors as well, but money is the biggest issue.
See !breadtube@lemmy.world
the left isn’t unified enough to ever do this.
i’m a progressive leftist type… and half the time i feel alienated from my own politics because so much of it is basically anti-male anti-white hate jerking where i am told that anything i may say is oppressive to those of ‘marginalized identities’.
i seriously don’t blame young guys for being so hopeless. nobody will give them any positive direction or reinforcement other than charlatans who are looking to exploit them. it’s fucking dark.
i’m so glad my wayward 20s were 20 years ago when social media was not a thing. i had to sort out my shit in person with friends, not on the internet with strangers.
but as a 40 something guy now, i can tell you that NOBODY wants me involved in anything anymore. even my own social groups have taken to being like ‘we have too many white men, they are bad, we need to attract more people of color and women and trans people because they are special and good by default and white men are bad by default’. it’s infuriating and depressing that i’m basically told to f off when I want to contribute to my community.
i should also say i’m working-class, and that is just like… insta banned/hated if that ever comes up from my leftist people. who are typically upper middle class people pretending to be working-class for fun.
I don’t doubt that you find the left’s current politic alienating in and of itself (lord knows it can be bewildering), but I have SERIOUS doubts that reality is anything like what you’re describing here. I’m a gun-toting, outdoor-type leftist whose predominantly queer/non-white friends (I live in a big city) always find me more of a novelty than a threat. They look at me like through the walls of a fishbowl, unable to understand a lot of what I believe but also appreciative that I’m an ally on core issues that matter to them. Not once has anyone ever looked at me or any of my other cis white male friends and told them to fuck off unless it’s someone coming in with a chip on their shoulder who feels like they need to prove something by being a confrontational asshole. I suggest you reflect less on what you feel like people believe about you when you’re not around and more on how they treat you when you are. They’re not nearly as threatened or upset by you as you think.
The way you phrase this tells me you’re gleaning many of your conclusions from online spaces, rather than face-to-face real life. That’s probably why you feel the way you do. I actually have serious doubts that you have any meaningful personal relationships with leftists who aren’t cartoons or provocateurs. Perhaps the way you’re received online has to do with the fact that your stories are so over-the-top and on-the-nose as to seem deliberately hyperbolic.
Thank you. That comment felt like something that escaped from r/walkaway, just totally made up, and I didn’t want to respond. You’ve done so beautifully!
Removed by mod
That’s because he’s using pretty much every trope/straw man that we have come to see from bad actors. He starts off with the classic “As a leftist…” then goes on to lament his social group becoming too woke, then finishes strong by declaring that he is just a working class Joe that actual leftists wouldn’t understand.
So I’ll say it. He IS a bad actor.
Removed by mod
Everyone else is also entitled to their opinion that he’s acting in bad faith.
Sounds like I was right all along.
Removed by mod
I didn’t say they do. My charge was that either he was lying, or he’s an asshole. He proved the latter.
Ok?
deleted by creator
We should all take this textbook example of sock puppetry to heart. I’m sorry, but there just aren’t “progressive leftist types” who are also “it’s the working class, straight, middle-aged white men who are the <real> oppressed minority” types. Like point me to one thing progressive about anything in this comment if that’s who you are. Point me to one thing you said other than “I’m a lib, promise!” that couldn’t have come straight out of Jordan Peterson’s or Scott Adam’s whiny ass mouths. Get outta here with that bad faith “I’m liberal but all the trans and black and female people are mean to me and don’t listen and don’t want me around” boohoo nonsense