We need to exert more pressure on apple and eu to not remove PWAs. Every signature counts, please sign and share EU has already started a preliminary investigation on this http://archive.today/2024.02.26-223134/https://www.ft.com/content/d2f7328c-5851-4f16-8f8d-93f0098b6adc
The company said cutting off PWAs was part of an effort to comply with the Digital Markets Act, arguing browsers other than its own Safari software would expose users to security and privacy risks that were not permitted under the law.
They are so full of shit, it’s unbelievable! Are they really claiming that their own browser is THE ONLY legal browser there is?!
It’s blatant anti-competitive behavior and anybody who cares about antitrust should be outraged about this and similar efforts. Getting legal protection for such decisions is nothing but regulatory capture.
Don’t they already force every browser on their app store to use the safari engine because “security”?
Yes, although that recently changed in the EU (only) with the Digital Markets Act.
Move away from apple products & taste the freedom…
The problem is the only alternative (on phones) is handing over all my data to Google, the world’s largest ad company. I’m not sure that’s better…
Desktop is easy. Install Linux. But on phones, there’s 2 bad realistic choices.
You don’t have to install Gapps though.
If you skip GApps & install a custom ROM, chances are banking & government apps won’t work… & you see some places removing their websites forcing users into the app duopoly… which is why web apps matter.
FWIW I’ve got grapheneOS without google play services on a financial profile, and all of my financial apps work including: -Two credit card apps -Bank app -Three investing apps -Two direct transfer apps
One of the credit cards apps (amex) does give a “warning” on each page that it needs play services to function but if I click Ok it actually still just works.
You are also locked to a Pixel device so GG if you want features Pixels do not offer
Worth trying first. In my experience, almost every app works without the Google store. You can also block the internet access for any Google service or app via its settings.
And second step could be trying microG, which also usually works.
The best middle ground is probably GrapheneOS with sandboxed Google Play Services. At that point, most things “just work” and you can at least mitigate Google’s spyware.
Middle ground option has a weirdo author & is limited to Google’s Pixel line only (which eliminates one of the best parts about Android vs. iOS: device variety so you can find something specific to your needs)
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Sony Xperia 10 iii has all those things, and you can run Sailfish OS on it, including VoLTE and Android app support with it.
Crazy how these went from standard features to niche in a generation. Like a sibling comment mentioned, I picked up an Sony Xperia III 5 with microG for Lineage OS installed (tho I swap OLED + <6" screen for your front-facing speaker requirement). Stupidly, not-rooted I still can’t run banking apps since custom ROMs are dangerous (but make me safer). Ironically, the banking apps I would use have trackers in them since it’s their security/privacy that matter, not mine.
Yeah, which is why I use de-googled “vanilla” Bliss ROM 17.2 (Android 14 with latest security patch) on my Xiaomi Redmi Note 10 Pro instead of going the Graphene or Calyx + Pixel route. This way I have the hardware features I wanted (headphone jack, micro SD card slot, 5000mAh battery, 108mp camera, stereo speakers, 120mHz refresh rate) all for cheaper than a Pixel, and the Bliss ROM community is pretty friendly and dedicated in my interactions with it.
is your phone still officially supported by the oem with security patches? Because if not, no custom rom update can have the full range of security patches.
Is bliss compatible with apps and stuff?
What is the issue with the author? I was thinking of installing graphene
He stepped down last year. A bit toxic and troubled. A lot of social media drama around it.
Fortunately those apps are not required (and dangerous to use anyway)
In USA I’ve found it’s pretty easy to live without banking on your phone, although you can’t say the same for some other countries. Granted I have a job where I am working with my own desktop computers most of the day, so I can pay bills and transfer funds on them during those times - and lots of people might not have the same luxury. But I’ve yet to feel a need for any of them while out and about beyond a few occasions of Venmo’ing funds on the go - and at least Venmo still allows you to use their site via browser.
Venmo is a VC-funded social media (weirdly) + money transfer app which takes a cut for doing like nothing just because you want your cash instantly. Many other countries have built-in bank-to-bank transfers with no fees or wait time & other that there’s no money to extract from this, I don’t know why it doesn’t exist in the US.
Where I live, cash is luckily still king (no one uses credit & if you do, you are (rightfully) paying the credit card fee yourself), but more vendors are starting to prefer QR code payments & this year one of the banks leading the trends eliminated their online banking forcing you to use an app or do cash.
And this is why I’m getting a Pixel for my next phone, it’s the only phone line GrapheneOS works on, and it has a nice long support cycle.
I wish it was available on more phones though. I know there are other projects, but they don’t seem as well run as GrapheneOS.
Pixel is garbage hardware though. I’m on pixel 7 pro now and it is the worst phone I’ve ever had. Shit battery life, shit reception, shit processor that lags constantly, absolute shit Bluetooth chip that randomly disconnects in crucial moments when I’m on important calls or REALLY need android auto. This phone is only good at taking pictures and the fact that I get exclusive spam filtering features. We badly need another alternative.
Also fuck Google.
Really? What are you comparing it to?
The problem is that options are very limited for privacy-respecting ROMs. I honestly don’t care about the camera, but I very much want to avoid both Google and Apple software nonsense, and Bluetooth is also pretty important to me.
My current phone (Moto G Power) is a piece of crap, but it’s reasonably consistent in most regards. I’m interested in the Google Pixel 8a (assuming they release one), and I only want it to get GrapheneOS and a few years of security updates. I don’t expect a ton from my phone (I don’t play games, or use any intense apps), but Bluetooth, battery life, and privacy are very important. Unfortunately, Linux phones aren’t reliable at all, otherwise I’d just go that route.
I’m running GrapheneOS on a 7 pro. Battery isn’t great, but I’ve not had any major issues… At 44% with about 2 hours screen time and 16 hours since last charge. Downloaded a bunch of updates including a system update / reboot / optimize. Listened to a few hours of music over Bluetooth. Also forgot to shutoff location services after using the GPS last night. Bluetooth connected Garmin watch. Dual e-sim (Fi and JMP).
I normally end the day around 60%.
You might checkout DivestOS. Last I heard they had e-sim support without needing to install any of Google’s software. GrapheneOS didn’t have this feature when I got this phone. If its not on GrapheneOS when I upgrade next I plan to try and get the e-sim on with it before installing GrapheneOS.
add e-sim directly on GOS I actually think it is working now, think I saw something about it. worth checking out at least.
My previous phone was OnePlus 8 pro and 5t before that. Both still work more reliably than this pixel.
I did hear that Pixel 8 pro is a better phone but I don’t think Tensor will ever be as good as Qualcomm’s offerings.
I’m not one of the people willing to sacrifice convenience for privacy. I really like Android auto and Google pay so imnho Android phone is useless without Google services, but I agree that there are simply no good alternatives at the moment, so I’ll probably get another pixel when I smash this one against the wall from frustration.
Your issues is about stock OS not hardware. And yea shit works without that or gapps.
Android auto works on GOS with sandboxed playservice.
So your “convenience” is just laziness to actually look it up.
For those who don’t want the huge inconvenience of no gpay and have to use their cards. Any ROM like lineage for example with gapps on it.
Been using pixel phones for that reason, since… Pixel XL, and six pixel phones since then. Used several different AOSP based OS-es, most recently CalyxOS on Pixel 4a, and then GrapheneOS on Pixel 6a and now the 8 Pro.
Everything works, and you can choose how much of Google you invite back in. The best part is that the Google stuff doesn’t get any special treatment. Which means that the Pixel Camera app and Google Photos isn’t allowed access to Internet, because why should it?
The only thing that is still fundamentally flawed, are remote push notifications. And I don’t mean that it’s flawed for GeapheneOS, they work fine. It’s flawed in the sense that information goes through Google or Apple. The privacy concerns there are significant. It’s not end-to-end encrypted. You cannot avoid the problem either by disabling them on your phone. Each application, be that a Ring Camera, or backend messaging system, etc, that sends the stuff to Google through notification apis, will do so regardless of how much you sandbox or disable those services on the phone-receiving end. Conveniently, there is no effort by Apple or Google to make this core functionality any less tied to Apple or Google. The “asynchronous” nature makes it a problem that needs to be solved for each and every backend service system, for remote notifications. Some privacy conscious apps/services might let you limit what is sent to Google so you only get “New message from Hubbie” instead of also “Hubbie: remember to buy the paint for the baby-room! I’m so excited”.
Anyways… Not sure why I went on such a long tangent. I was done pooping a while ago.
CalyxOS on a Pixel is as great as it currently gets. But stuff can get better.
Do you like the Pixel 8 Pro? I’m waiting to see what the Pixel 8a looks like. I don’t expect a lot from my phone so I don’t need a flagship, but I do value long term security updates and the 8 series has 7 years of updates.
I think the 8a, if it’s similar to the 8, might be a better size. But, I’m also fairly sure be fine with any of them.
My current phone is about the 8 Pro size, and I think it’s a bit too big. The 8 might be good enough, but yeah, I’d like to see what the 8a looks like before deciding.
Depends on the phone you get. You have to “do your own research” and figure beforehand which phones even allow you to install a custom ROM or different OS, like LineageOS, and evaluate if the steps required to do so (and risk of bricking) are worth the trouble. The worst part is that this shit is difficult on purpose, much like how, by default, Android won’t let you uninstall bloatware, only “disable” it.
Yeah, ironically that’s why the best devices for this are Google’s.
almost every apple user says shit like this while using Gmail, Google docs, and the Google app on their phone and blindly giving Apple their data. let’s be real for a sec and not pretend most Apple users give a flying fuck that Google tracks them. if a user truly cared about privacy, they would eventually come to the conclusion that it doesn’t matter Apple or Google, privacy means not giving your data to ultra mega corps. so owning an iPhone isn’t adequate for privacy either. both googled Android and iOS give your data back to their respective companies. neither are good for your privacy. one day when Apple start changing their tune on privacy policies, Apple fan boys who have put their their whole lives into the apple ecosystem will realize they put all their eggs in one basket.
Have any evidence that both are the same regarding privacy or just your personal feelings?
one day when Apple start changing their tune on privacy policies
I don’t think this is a fair point, unless someone was making the claim that Apple is some benevolent do-good company out of the kindess of their own hearts. No one really makes those claims though, I think most who choose their products for privacy reasons simple thing they are better than the other of the main 2 options, and that like any corporation needs to be watched closely. Just because I chose an Apple device at this time does not mean I advocate that they will always be a better choice for privacy (or any number of characteristics someone may care about when choosing a phone).
almost every apple user says shit like this while using Gmail, Google docs, and the Google app on their phone
Again, just your feelings. Maybe statistically it’s even true that most do, but at least there is a choice on these things. I can and do avoid all of these, the only things I load from google are tracking scripts embedded in websites that make it through several layers of blocking.
privacy means not giving your data to ultra mega corps
Not sure this is true, surely there are large corporations that are at least better than others with regard to privacy. It would be especially foolish to assume the inverse of this, that just because a company is small that they will respect privacy or act better.
I work as a mobile dev. particularly in ad-tech and security. at my comp, marketers spend 10x more on ads to iOS than Androids in the US. meaning, more advertisers come to us and tell us we want us to target more iOS users with the budget.
and most do consider apple the benevolent do-good company and many do make the claim. Apple uses privacy as marketing and the result is many people blindly trust them and their devices or at least assume the competition is flagrantly out to get them. you seem to have your pulse on things but that’s not true for most iPhones users, even those who say they care about privacy.
you also can’t say it’s my feelings and then say it’s probably statistically true at the same time lol it’s is true and most people on ios still use Google front and center on their mobile experience.
while you’re not sure if that’s true, I AM sure it’s true. privacy means your data stays with you. period. the best option is not giving people your data to begin with.
You mean rather than handing it over to Apple…
Pixel + GrapheneOS
Firefox doesn’t even support pwa, this is a weird community to post this
Firefox for Android supports PWAs, only Desktop Firefox dropped the support
Which honestly makes sense, what’s the point of PWA on desktop?
Web apps are awesome on desktop especially when common clients like Skype and Slack are absolute fucking shit with zero dev time spent on them because Electron is a lazy alternative despite being shit software that needs to fucking die.
Thankfully --no-remote parameter still sort of works to make Firefox semi usable as a web app.
because Electron is a lazy alternative despite being shit software that needs to fucking die
This needs to be said more often
I love how somehow electron is the lazy way while web apps isn’t, even though electron is just an executable with chromium bundled
And made significantly worse by a) locking you into using a restricted version of the browser made by a shitty company. b) laging noticeably behind that browser in development c) using custom apis for performing tasks already available in any browser like interacting with microphone, camera etc d) breaking perfectly working components that rely on OS apis in regular browsers like screen sharing, video acceleration, etc e) some of the above is partially responsible for Electron being totally broken on certain combinations of OS/WM/hardware where regular browsers work prefectly fine
I can keep going, but my point is all these pointless sacrifices are supposedly there to save dev team a bit of time instead of designing a properly working website and just using a web app or allocating some time to build a functional native app.
Fuck Google and fuck electron. It’s just a pathetic attempt to mine more data from people using pseudo app.
I agree that ElectronJS is shit but the idea behind isn’t bad. See tauri, it achieved the same thing but better
Source: I’m a developer forced to also work with electron
Didn’t slack just revamp their entire UI? And also what’s functionally wrong with it? I haven’t had any issues with slack
After years of using it, there was only once a brief release in which screen sharing actually worked. The only way I can share screen at the moment is by launching slack in any of chrome based browsers. None of the apps work. Not the native one, not the flatpak, not the snap.
Yeah but it’s as buggy as hell
How is a web app any better than an electron app? Electron is just a wrapper for a web app.
Installing web apps that should really be their own apps and not confined to a tab in your browser. Especially on Linux for things like Notion that you’ll need often and accessible from the dash or task bar.
I actually would love to have it since I’m on Linux. My options are sometimes nothing, 3rd party packaged version, broken or slow startup time. (Most of the time it’s just fine though)
Having everything as cached Web pages with notifications, working camera, mic and screen sharing is very good.
What’s the difference to open it in your own browser then?
It doesn’t create a new entry in the taskbar with a separate icon and I can’t target it as easily for “Open on this virtual desktop” settings. Links don’t open in another tab of the window you use only for an application. Shortcuts usually function better also.
Those are just some things of the top of my head
Mmh I see! I used a tool to convert the website to an electron package (for Linux), but the experience was just the same as using the browser so I just went with that tbf
I’ve used some of those also. I’ve had mixed experiences with them since some applications always open stuff in a tab which you can only get to and close with shortcuts and the favicon not being used by default on Wayland. I mean those are very minor though hahaha.
Mostly the same as on phones.
Basically the same point as Electron/Tauri, make a web app feel like a native app by getting rid of the typical browser UI to focus on the content. I’m pretty sure they usually integrate with OS features, like launchers, so you don’t need to bookmark it in your browser, you just open like any other app.
Developers can focus on PWA for phones and desktop.
What’s the point of it on phones?
Single app for all platforms, without the baggage and issues of the cross-native solutions.
They’re actually secure too. It’s always interesting to me how iphone owners are so concerned about security and privacy, right up until Apple tells them not to.
I’ve had an Apple user on here try to tell me that PWAs would open new security issues if they could be installed by any browser. They didn’t want to accept that a PWA would need both a browser exploit and an iOS exploit to have the same malicious potential as an iOS app has with just an iOS exploit. But they didn’t care that literally any website has the same potential for exploitation as PWAs do.
I genuinely don’t understand how you can get to this understanding without willfully ignoring how these things work.
Right…
Moving the app outside the confinement of official distribution channel/getting rid of 20/30% of store tax?
Isn’t that what’s happening in the EU?
You don’t have to rely on stupid “app” stores
And there is FirefoxPWA, an extension to add pretty solid PWA support on desktop.
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I am using https://lichess.org/ and prefer it over the native iOS App for this free chess website. It is in fact a smoothly running PWA and even supports notifications (e.g. to remind one to move in correspondence games).
Same goes with Voyager ( https://vger.app/ ), that was used to create this post.
F* you, Apple!
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Same goes with Voyager ( https://vger.app/ ), that was used to create this post.
Voyager is the best PWA I’ve ever seen.
Thank you Tim Apple
This is so frustrating because this is a big hit to browsers like firefox because Apple has such a large userbase, but this same userbase does not give a shit, and this is because they bought an apple in the first place. Frustrating
Someone fill me in:
Can they really force this once EU opens the gates to the third-party app stores?
They will try. This is about OS-level APIs. In order for a browser to to install and run PWAs, it needs certain OS APIs for e.g. home screen installation, storage and notifications. iOS currently has these APIs but Safari severely limits what you can do with it. Now the DMA will force Apple to accept other browsers, which have no such limitations. So, Apple now wants to remove these APIs altogether and kill PWA support outright, before that portion of the DMA takes effect.
There probably will be a lawsuit and Apple will probably lose, but it will take years to resolve that. And in the mean time PWAs remain dead and the only way on the iOS home screen in paying the 30% app store cut.
I see. So it doesn’t look good for now. Thanks for the insight!
Isn’t it the other way around? Afaik the EU commission investigates them, makes a decision, and sets a due date for Apple to comply or pay a potentially hefty fine. It would be Apple who’d have to sue against that, and they’d have to pay the fine until a court confirms or nullifies it.
The fine will have to be pretty hefty to cancel out the risk to Apple of PWAs taking off.
A free and open app platform sitting above the OS is surely a terrible threat to both Google and Apple.
Google and apple both allow pwas right now though, don’t they? I don’t think it’s a threat. It’s just apple trying to say fu to the eu. The eu will slp a billion dollar fine on them. They’ll pay it.
A PWA running in a browser engine that they can’t control can have access to features that they can’t vet and restrict. If PWAs aren’t restricted to 50MB of storage and have near feature-parity with native apps then they’ll eventually lose the ability to enforce their revenue cut on In-App Purchases.
Not sure how it works on android, but on iOS I’m pretty sure this means that mobile game devs will start shipping games as WebGL/WASM with asset streaming and implement their own payment channels for micro-transactions.
Apple can’t risk it and I believe they will fight it tooth and nail to the bitter end.
Up to 10% of global revenue, 20% if they keep repeating the same offense, so nothing to sneeze at.
Is that revenue from all sources, the mobile division, or just the revenue from this particular mechanism (essentially zero)?
Pretty much all sources as far as I understand it. The exact definition is here if you’re interested (Article 5).
not exceeding 10 % of the aggregate turnover of the undertaking concerned within the meaning of Article 5
So I’m not sure what “the undertaking concerned” means exactly, but it’s probably the mobile portion of the business (and maybe just app store sales). But I guess that’s yet to be determined.
Yes because what they are doing is just removing websites from the app-store. Other app-stores might add those websites to their store if they want but for the user it is almost always better to just save the website to their homescreen, which gives the exact same UX as previous web-apps but now you don’t need to go to the app-store to download it, the app takes up no storage on your device and the web app can’t access your privacy sensitive device IDs that might be used for cross-app tracking.
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Firefox on Desktop doesn’t support PWAs
Apparently Firefox on Android does
A PWA installed with Firefox on Android does not appear in the app launcher, but only on the home screen. I don’t know whether this is the fault of Firefox or Android but it’s a major flaw.
Hmmmm. I can see how that’s not ideal and how it would bother some people.
It really just adds a shortcut right? How hard would it be to add a second shortcut in the app launcher?
It would need to be registered as an app, and a shortcut isn’t an app.
Ok I understand. Well I guess it seems like there is room for improvement then.
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Partly android, but a custom launcher could solve it themselves
There is a project on github that adds that function.
They are not sabotaging “web apps” (aka websites), you just need to save the website to the homescreen if you want to use a web app, (this is both quicker and takes up less storage on your device so it is better for the end-user).
They are removing these “apps” from the appstore because they are not native apps.
PWAs (Progressive Web Apps) are their own categories of websites and they do indeed have the ability to behave like an actual app. They are much more than just a shortcut, which apple is reducing them to.
On android, my PWA that I developed for fun can go full screen and appear as though a browser isn’t wrapping the page, I can send notifications, I can access the microphone and camera, I can do nearly everything you could expect an app to do, I can support offline mode, I can store data locally, and I can manage my PWAs permissions as well as uninstall my app at an OS level. My entire family uses my PWA, and they see it as an app.
Are there some things native apps can do that PWAs can’t? Absolutely, but that is not the point. PWAs are an open and clearly defined technology to the web. Windows supports them as well.
Apple is refusing to accept that though. They are removing notifications, badges, etc, and reducing them to what you have described, just a shortcut to a Safari window. They are citing security concerns even though other operating systems are able to implement security around them just fine.
The real issue is Apple wants more control over how you use your device and is acting against the consumer.
On android, my PWA that I developed for fun can go full screen and appear as though a browser isn’t wrapping the page
That is literally how I am using kbin.social right now even though it’s just a website
I can send notifications, I can access the microphone and camera, I can do nearly everything you could expect an app to do
All of those are defined in the web spec as well so you wouldn’t need an app for that (if apple implemented all of them, not sure if they have)
I can support offline mode
Your cached web page can do that too (even though most web pages don’t because it’s not a common usecase)
I can store data locally
Cookies have existed for much longer than the iPhone
uninstall my app at an OS level.
A website added to your home page basically acts like an app: it has an icon on your home screen and you can longpress > delete it just like apps
Badges might be the only valid complaint (I don’t know if they are part of the web spec)
[Apple] is acting against the consumer.
Not sure how this is hurting the consumer. This has been announced many years ago and devs haven’t been able to publish new or update old web apps for ages, so this change only applies to those very old apps still on the appstore.
The distinction is web workers and offline mode.
It means your PWA can preload everything it needs to run offline, and you can actually use it offline. That is different from a “cached website” which can only cache the pages you’ve already visited and otherwise does not allow you to update data locally.
Your website can just preload all pages needed for offline mode
you’re a cunt Tim
