I hate this law. Not because I think people should be saluting like Nazis, but because it was actually needed. We should be better than that. Have we learned nothing from 80-90 years ago?
My theory: there is basically no-one left who remembers WW2 first-hand, and a lot of people only know that the atrocities were commited by “evil monsters”. And we’re not evil monsters, right? We’re sophisticated modern humans, not evil monsters, right? We are, therefore, incapable of atrocity or even mistake and it cannot happen here, right?
It’s super frustrating for people like me who are nerds for history and are extremely aware of exactly how fascism progressed last time it got popular.
There’s a good reason “historian” is about the most left-leaning profession in existence.
The systematic dismantling of humanities education hasn’t helped this either. That’s why we needs arts / humanities just as much as science. The nazis had science but they didn’t have any humanity.
Not that I support their ideology at all, but the Nazis gave the world some really cool shit. Jets, rockets and the ballistic missile, the modern highway system/overpasses, and advancement in nuclear fission. Just goes to show how much war seems to advance our technology tree.
Also…Fuck Nazis
I’d argue that the technological advancement was from spending a lot on that rather than societal goods, and the general removal of freedoms to trade for efficiency. This usually happens during war, but a society can’t maintain that, people get sick of it. If they didn’t run out of oil, they would have run out of the will to fight.
It’s also dumb because it can easily be abused by the police. They could easily say you were doing it when hailing a cab or waving to your friend. There is a very fine line between Heil Hitler and Hail Cab, about 45° to be exact.
Do you actually think this is likely to be a problem?
Hell, if you’re actually hailing a cab, they’d likely need to chase down that cab by the time they got to you.
As stupid as it sounds, I can only imagine some poor guy with swastika tattoos trying to explain how he was only waiving a cab driver down when he gets spear tackled by some crazy Islamic state supporter
How do you think this goes in court. If this is abused it means free millions from the state for your rights being trampled on.
No it does not work like that. People have to be constantly reminded about stuff like this, only then can you even have the slighest hope that it won’t happen again.
This was rumoured to have come about because everyone was saying Dictator Dan, and throwing nazi salutes at him, though, right?
This was more about Dan not being upset, and being able to have protesters arrested if he got upset. This has been years in the making.
And now he’s resigned.
That’s how I understood it when it was first announced back in the day anyway.
Fitting name.
(note: this post is now intended for the grandparent poster, after my initial assumption that the post above was agreeing with them)
Yes, a fitting name for an elected official who took the advice of both government and public service and used laws that had been available for a century to stop the spread of a virulent disease that actually, measurably, saved hundreds-to-thousands of lives. Laws that notably took power away from him and shunted it to the state’s chief medical officer, a public service, non-elected position.
And then in a classic dictator move, a few years after releasing that extraordinary use of power and bringing things back to normal, he had the absolute gall to resign and not continue his despotic reign, talk about cheek.
“Dictator Dan”, indeed.
The problem with names like that is that they use emotions to mask facts. “Dictator Dan” is as catchy as hell, don’t get me wrong. But it focuses entirely on the man, not the methods. If you want to actually change the methods, then go right ahead and and use all the democratic processes we’ve got in place to do so, and we’ve got plenty compared to actual dictatorships.
Having the media rant against Dan Andrews in this manner only sows discontent and strife. That on its own does nothing to improve the situation, in fact, it makes it much worse.
Mate, I meant the guy I replied too, “Making(Up)StuffffForFun”.
Then I apologise for my confusion.
I’ve just heard that phrase bandied around far too often, and phrases like that are the thin end of the wedge of stupidity that blocks rational debate.
I’d say it’s got more to do with Tom Sewell and his merry band of genetic backwaters, but that’d make sense, and I don’t read the Murdoch trash.
We’re still blaming Dan for everything?
Thanks Obama
Love to, but the fucker up and resigned. HOW COULD DANDREWS DO THIS
^/s /s for chrissake^
I don’t think it had anything to do with that. During lockdown people were drawing swastikas and such in my area, and for the past few years, there have been Nazis stickers going up (even before covid).
It has been increasingly escalating to worse nazi nonsense
I’d say if it were happening during lockdown, and given the percentage of the population that were outraged and felt like they were living in an Orwellian nightmare, it makes sense they’re not actual Nazism supporters, but the opposite, and were sending a message to Dan.
Bullshit and fuck off.
Some people went fucking nuts - and I mean full on clinically time cube level batshit - during covid and a cohort went deep into the air fryer. We call them cookers because they’re bloody cooked. They do not reflect the general opinion and if you side with nazis to piss off an elected official YOU CAN JUST VOTE OUT you’re a goddamn idiot.
There were also stickers being stuck up before then at random spots (there was one at the footbridge here in Seaford)
The nazi’s were simply opportunistic and took advantage of the situation. It’s just inexcusable in any regard
No.
This happened after a bunch of nazis inserting themselves into everything imaginable (and yes, they did co-opt a lot of the dissatisfaction over lockdowns) pissing more and more people off until we literally ended with a situation where they got a protective cop ring around them and started flinging seig heils and there was no legal way to get them on the harm they were doing.
Fuck that noise.
Also fuckin’ dan couldn’t give a shit what nutballs chant in the street when the voters kept putting him back in the seat. Don’t be such a five year old
I heard it was because everyone was throwing Nazi salutes in public spaces in support of the current liberal candidate but maybe whoever said that was making it the fuck up
edit for raptor squad this is entirely sarcastic but Christ you’re dense mate
All I really have to say about this is fucking good
Edit: typo
Swede here, I completely agree!
Let’s just hope the nazis never learn about the Olympic salute…
Nazism should be illegal not just the salute.
As German, I approve of this 👍
As a person, this is agreeable.
Good. There should be no room for hate, let Nazis rot in the bins of history where they belong.
Hmmm. Between 1am and 9am on a fuckin’ sunday this somehow gains an extra 39 comments
That’s not suspicious at all.
I was very confused. This had 40 upvotes within 40 minutes of posting it in the middle of the night
Edit: God damn typos
You know time zones exist right? 1am where you are is 6pm somewhere else?
You know this is a relatively small instance created for Australia and Australian related things, right? And 1am where I am on the east coast is 10pm on the other side of the country, the furthest place I would’ve expected this post to spread, right?
I’ll assume you’re not a duck and don’t understand how mastodon works. The moment anyone from another instance - like me, an Australian in Australia but on a Canadian instance - subscribes to a community, that community becomes “synched” with their instance. Meaning everyone on my Canadian instance will now see this stuff on their All feed. Multiply that by who knows how many other Australians are on who knows how many other international instances, and you get comments at “1am” from people sitting on their couch browsing mastodon at 6pm.
Again, I wouldn’t have expected this to have been seen by many people outside of vic, let alone outside of Australia. There’s no need to be a dick about it, I just would not have expected it to make it outside of this instance. That is why I was surprised by the upvote count and the timeframe.
Also some people use “Top - Last Hour”, so it doesn’t take much to get it started. Better than Reddit on that way.
I am on a different lemmy instance altogether. I did not browse either by top>hour or anything. This just showed in the All feed in my app. Kinda like how something hit Reddit’s Frontpage, it seemed.
I know they’re all trying to be I Am Very Smart but damn if the sudden insistence by many people that They Should Speak And Be Heard Despite Having Zero Skin Here You Horrible Gatekeepers is really just supporting the theory skskskks
hello from Austria.
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hi from the internet!
You know you don’t have to comment on every news article that exists, right? And maybe if it’s something in an area you don’t live in we don’t care about your opinion.
Sorry tiger you might want to try again. I’m Australian too. And that’s a ripper attitude, not at all insular and parochial.
My point was poking fun at these dorks trying to suggest the sudden influx of comments was some sort of global conspiracy rather than the existence of the northern hemisphere. Almost as dumb as the dorks suggesting people will now get arrested for “hailing a tram”.
Nobody was suggesting that. For the most part, people are surprised to see this make it outside of Australia. Most of the time people outside of Australia don’t care about Australian news, in the same way I don’t care about some obscure new law that’s been passed in Azerbaijan or Scotland. Nobody would expect minor Australian news to make it to all or active because 99% of things posted here are only seen by a few people on other instances. And before I realised it had done that, of course I thought it seemed fucking suspicious there were this many comments on and votes on a post here. Any sane person would.
Nobody? There’s multiple comments specifically calling it sus
Yes there are, but who suggested it’s a “global conspiracy”?
if it’s something in an area you don’t live in we don’t care about your opinion.
Post on the internet where the entire world can see it.
This guy: “DON’T READ THIS! THIS ISN’T FOR YOU!”
yeah nah mate literally no one is saying that.
What has been intimated is “gee. it’s awfully strange how many people suddenly have opinions about a place they normally couldn’t give four shits about as soon as we start banning nazi shit.”
Read what you like, idgaf. but when something that introduces legislation suddenly blows up with OPINIIIONS from non regs? Yeah, you’re gonna get a side eye
and yeah, maybe we don’t give a shit about your opinions on how we ban nazis. Fuck’em
What has been intimated is "gee. it’s awfully strange how many people suddenly have opinions about a place they normally couldn’t give four shits about
Right, I’m sure you have no opinion on things like Russia’s invasion of Ukraine, or Donald Trump, or Brexit, because you don’t live in those areas.
and yeah, maybe we don’t give a shit about your opinions on how we ban nazis. Fuck’em
Never shared my opinion on how you ban nazis. Just pointing out how it doesn’t make sense to have a Lemmy post and think somehow only Australians can read it.
But seeing as you don’t live in my area I guess I don’t give a fuck if you don’t like my opinion. That’s apparently how this works right?
…yeah you keep going to that well. Hyperbole isn’t serving you the way you think it is.
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It’s 9am in Moscow
That action: salute back
Excellent law. This should be adopted worldwide.
So hailing a tram will now be an open hand wave?
Happy that Naziism is becoming illegal, not so happy its the cops making the call
So fucking sick of this 'what if you this" “but whatif you that” ‘won’t someone pleeeeaaase think of the innocents!!’ like a nazi salute is easily mistaken for something else.
It fucking isn’t.
You mistake is assuming the law is being applied in good faith.
Of course hailing a tram is obviously different than a Nazi salute to anyone.
But the objective is not to detect Nazis , it’s to find an excuse to harass and intimidate people.
This is just another tool in their belt.With a new law, you should always think of how it’s going to be like if applied by the most bigoted racist police officer in existence. And what mechanisms you have in place to stop that officer.
Your mistake is talking out your arse.
We had literal fucking nazis demonstrating and throwing salutes with no way to gut the little cunts for it. It pissed a LOT of people off. There was a whole damned thing about banning iconography and salutes that has been going on for over a year. Which you would know if you were aware of what actually goes on down here.
We want this fucking law because we don’t tolerate nazi shits.
The cops can get you for looking funny, they don’t need fake hitler salute claims
That is kind of my concern as well, it’s a pretty decent defense if caught.
Additionally, while I think nazis are the literal worst, I don’t think anyone’s right to communicate should be impeded.
Look up the paradox of intolerance.
I also agree that society should tolerate freedom of speech. But when that freedom of speech is being used to weaponize and remove others’ freedom of speech, we should not tolerate that.
Yeah man, if we tolerate those damn tram-hailers it’s a slippery slope from there right down to fascism
They were defending the usage of Nazi salutes, not the right to hail a tram lol
Because of all the political power Nazis have…
Paradox of intolerance is largely irrelevant. Democracies don’t collapse because of free speech, they collapse because the public loses faith in them (justified or not).
If you run around making wild statements, the public isn’t going to automatically believe you unless it corresponds with some personal experience or observation. This is why libertarian and socialist movements (and Nazi movements) crash and burn in the US. There claims just don’t correspond with how people perceive there country.
Or don’t look up the paradox of intolerance because it’s nothing more than linguistic masturbation.
If you’re using the Nazi salute to hail a tram, you’re definitely doing it wrong.
First of all, the tram will stop if you’re just standing at a stop, so it’s unnecessary, and if you insist on hailing, you could do it without stretching your arm all the way.
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“Fine, that explains the hand gesture, but how do you explain the WWII Wehrmacht uniform?”
Halloween?
Well, at least they will easily recognize it.
Gonna make police federation meetings awkward.
Except when it’s other cops.
Please hold the next republican convention here.
Our republicans are sane. Please keep your republicans away
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The real question is how do we set them on each other
Liberal fascists: “Let me tell you why this is scary”
I’m assuming your down votes are coming from people who don’t realise that the “Liberals” are Australia’s more conservative party.
Yeah pretty much. It’s like that where I live too. It’s just Americans have a choice between the fascist liberal party and the pedo neo-nazi party so they think liberalism is a progressive camp when it’s anything but.
Also a quick reminder that swastikas drawn in permanent marker can be wiped off some surfaces with a solvent, such as by using alcohol based hand sanitizer on a tissue. Both come in travel sizes.
As for ones that cannot be cleaned off, well there’s absolutely nothing you can do about that. It cannot be helped. You wouldn’t want to get caught undoing a hate symbol by drawing over it in a hilarious but completely illegal way.
Such vandalism is reserved for your own belongings because graffiti of public property is a crime. ☝️
Report it in the Snap send solve app. It will alert the council and they’ll remove it within a day usually.
I forgot the /s tag
But yeah that also works
I feel like this is a pointless and totally useless crime for anyone to tackle. Like if someone drew a dick on my face with permanent marker, or spraypainted my house, I would be more concerned about why they didn’t have a job rather than the actual act of spray painting to begin with. My personal take at least is that there’s worse crimes out there
As much as I hate what the Nazis did, and this resurgence of neo Nazism, I worry that raising one’s hand for any purpose could be mistaken for a salute.
I’m certain police will use their discretion and infer intent before deciding whether or not a raised hand could be considered a Nazi salute. It’d be way too easy to argue down in court.
I hope so
It’s tricky because how do you ensure that neo Nazis can’t argue it down in court, but common sense prevails for non Nazis?
I imagine it’ll be all about context, and police will probably only lay charges if they know the circumstances will hold up in court. No way they’re going to risk having to take half a day hanging around the courthouse if there’s a chance the person could have been hailing a cab.
However, if someone’s protesting trans rights on the steps of Parliament, hiding their cowardly face behind a black mask, holding their arm out in the same fashion? Yeah, that’s a fucken Nazi salute alright. Throw the book at them.
if the police want to brutalize someone they’ll use anything as a pretext
criminalizing nazi displays is good.
I worry that raising one’s hand for any purpose could be mistaken for a salute.
really?
As much as I hate Nazis we should really tolerate them for this scenario I just made up
“Lets say that in this hypothetical scenario, the nazis are the good guys” - every liberal ever
You don’t think someone can question the enforcement of the law without supporting Nazis?
I don’t think someone hailing a taxi is going to get cuffed unless the cops were after them anyway. Be happy that the neoliberal slime in charge of the state did something good for once instead of imagining that a conductor might be sent to jail in the middle of a symphony.
Do you think the Labor government is neo liberal? I don’t know, the state government has done a lot of good things over the last few years.
Yes, the center left neoliberals are still neoliberals
As with all internet things, you can safely discard everything that appears before the “, but”
?? There’s no “, but” in my message.
lol.
God dam, there’s a lot of comments in there for a midnight posting. sus imo.
This post is fairly far up in the active feed, so it’s gone international.
That’s why.
fair. I don’t quite get how lemmy integrates. I suppose lemmy being new and a large chunk of team melbourne coming over will skew things a little.
