I think every article is missing a key issue and no one has asked Spez yet…
If 3rd Party Apps and AI services are making millions (as he asserts) why isn’t Reddit competing in those areas?
3rd Party Apps aren’t in a war of new features, putting a 5-10 person development team together to analyse the competitor apps and match the features would kill off the unique selling point of the 3rd Party Apps. Why hasn’t Reddit done this?
LLM aren’t new, the first appeared in 2018. Why hasn’t Reddit assembled a team to exploit their own data? In my experience 1 data scientist backed by 2 software engineers can do a lot. It isn’t a huge amount of people needed.
Even if you buy his argument that they companies are profiting from Reddit, Reddit is a platform those companies are building value from. Reddit isn’t providing those services and so those companies profits aren’t “stolen” from Reddit.
It’s like company who sells art supplies. They sell them to a painter for £100, then a painter sells their artwork for £1000. The art supply company then gets upset it didn’t get £1000 for its supplies.
Great article, thanks for sharing. It’s nice to see news outlets accurately capturing then situation.
They make a good point about the free labour, the disconnect is huge. They want reddit to go public so they can make millions of dollars off the backs of indentured servitude. So when do the nods cut their cut? No way is reddit going to hire moderators for the 7000+ subreddits that went dark, so the salting the earth well and truly.
I do wish they’d been clearer about the issues created for mod and accessibility tools and I wish any of the articles would note the ‘misrepresentation’ of the conversation with the Apollo developer
Not to mention that many of these reddit articles say that the reason for the blackout is that reddit was simply going to put the API behind a paywall, not mentioning the insane rates they were going to charge. Most of the conversations I saw with 3rd party app developers were that they understood the need to charge for the API, the problem was that they wanted to charge an insane amount with very little notice. Kind of makes the protestors seem unreasonable or out of touch
I wish they actually did a bit of research on why people are protesting. Saying the third party apps simply “keep communities vibrant” completely misses some major points. Personally, I’m more furious how spez handled the AMA. He showed that the reddit staff has no interest in listening to anything that concerns the community. We’re all just an obstacle between them and their deserved money.
This.
When I learned Reddit was effectively shutting down third-party apps, I thought it sucks but it’s their prerogative. I didn’t delete the Reddit app yet, or create a Lemmy account.
It’s Huffman’s increasingly entitled behavior after it that shocked me and pushed me here. His tactical decisions have been really destructive, I think it’s realistic that he might get shown the door. 🤞
For that reason, I used to think that if they fire him, I don’t need them to change anything else, I’d go back to Reddit; but the community on Lemmy has been far better than I was expecting, and it wasn’t as hard to get over its UX quirks as I was first fearing, so now I’m not sure I’d ever want to go back. It’s kinda nicer around here in the end…
This article from TechCrunch had a line that really confirmed some suspicions I’d had about this:
[Spez] told the publication that he was the person inside the company who was responsible for this policy change that affect these apps.
If you thought Reddit’s absolute refusal to do anything in light of all the bad press was borderline sociopathic, there you go. Spez is taking all of this personally.
There was a way for everyone to win here, given some concessions. Yet no. Huffman decides to go nuclear with the API pricing to try to maximize profitability. This seems to tell me that the way Reddit was sold to investors it was way over valued.
YET, I still firmly believe that Reddit does not know what to do with its user data, or has not figured a way to conveniently, and concisely package it in any usable manner. As is, Reddit should be profitable based on the data users provide. Facebook does it with user data and remains free to use. This might explain some of the weird development choices Reddit has made over the years with new Reddit and the mobile app. They’re trying to shoehorn users into a system that allows their data to be usable, yet a large portion of the user base hasn’t followed along. They’ve utilized RES. old Reddit, and 3rd party apps instead of the official app which tries to compile user data into something that can be more easily packaged into something that can be sold to advertisers.
Now they’re on their 3rd year trying to go public, and they haven’t made measurable progress. Investors are waiting for their return, and Huffman is under the gun to produce some measured result…hence the API pricing and this nuclear option.
It’s a nearly 20 year old company that does not have a financially sustainable, robust business model (contrary to lemonade stands). It might be profitable, despite what they claim, but they are still just shooting in the dark, randomly iterating ideas.
These leaders are fucking jokes, they wouldn’t get hired as junior analyst at any consultancy/bank.
while this article sheds light from another angle on the investablility of reddit as a commercial property, it still misses the mark regarding the real issues that spez has caused while making the mods appear as somewhat entitled thugs rather than the exploited laborers that they are. in any case, spez is made to look incompetent nonetheless.
i think the clock is ticking for either spez to walk things back, renegotiate API terms, or simply resign. I believe the latter will be the well-earned end result.
I think the only way this ends amicably between the community and Reddit at this point is Huffman is ousted and then they can finally entertain other deals for API access. I’m sure they’re looking at the insane profits AI companies are raking in largely off of data they scraped from sites like Reddit for free and thinking “WTF”. My impression is third party apps got caught kinda in the crossfire on this and weren’t actually their main target, but Huffman has managed to turn it in to some weird kind of ego issue now he’s accusing multiple developers of antagonizing the platform, refusing to work with them, when we have proof from several of them in multiple instances of the direct opposite. Attempts to reach out that go unanswered. An impossibly timeline to implement changes. Trying to throw the Apollo dev under the bus only to double down when confronted with proof he lied to press. Utterly bizarre. He needs to go.
My problem with the AI narrative is that AI companies probably don’t even use the API, they use a web crawler to scrape directly from the website. And any who are using the API can pretty easily switch
I’m okay with him being portrayed as incompetent but I agree spez is far more malicious than he is a bumbling idiot
The terms I see in my mind are greedy and incompetent.
Incompetent in management. Planning, decision-making, communication, leadership, of understanding what Reddit has, what it is, what its’ strengths are. Every time he does something - or neglects to act - the thing that made Reddit special erodes further.
Incompetent emotionally. The hotheaded knee-jerk pattern of lying, gaslighting, redirecting blame and name-calling we’ve seen through the years.This, combined with greed and his stupid, damaged worldview and political stances, is a volatile cocktail that does stink of maliciousness.
He will resign after the changes are implemented, or after the IPO. He’s the scapegoat of the investors
During the Pao days, we were ecstatic when it was announced that that spez will be replacing Pao as CEO. How wrong we were, now it seems like the problem is not with a single person as reddit but with the hivemind of the reddit admins as a whole, a bunch of people completely out of touch with reality.
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As reddit is turning 18 the next few weeks, I kinda see Spez as an abusive Stepfather, who sells his children into a prostitution ring(IPO).
He doesn’t care about the site, once the IPO is over he will just take his moneybags and leave
I think one of the most valuable things about this situation is that it lays bare the relationship between users/mods and admins/employees/owners of reddit. I think most users and mods lived in willful delusion that they kind of owned their own data and communities, and admins/employees/owners just sort of maintained infrastructure and me money from ads and unspecified backend data stuff…
It’s now forced that ownership question into the open in stark terms: users and mods don’t own their data or thir communities and their sweat equity, as it were, is not valued by the admin/employee/owner group when it really comes down to it.
That’s something I miss about my old bulletin board home; I could never imagine the admin team strong arming users over shit like this. It’s antithetical to the very ethos of the place - hell, I still send them $5 / month for old times sake to keep the servers up.
Reddit sold out years ago and it’s really just now hitting the fan.
Huffman deserves credit for thinking like an investor. Some third-party apps using Reddit content make money, which an owner of the still-unprofitable Reddit would probably prefer to share. A bigger target is artificial intelligence companies such as OpenAI that create value by scraping Reddit’s forums to hone their own products. Huffman’s plan would shut off that free-data spigot.
Seriously? Way to go capitalism.
It’s also just wrong. RIF had a profit sharing agreement. Huffman killed it.
