And opposing those actions is not antisemitic.
We take those two things together as truth and we are getting somewhere.
I really wish this didn’t need to be clarified every few days. Thanks, zionists and white supremacists!
You know, it’s that same right wing government’s hasbara for the 70 years to confuse the difference between an Israeli, a Jew, and a Zionist so they could use antisemitism as a cudgel and the Shoah as a shield.
FINE: If I’m not allowed to criticize Israel without fixing antisemitism first, then Israel can’t have any more weapons or cover in the UN until they solve race relations in the US.
I only hate the zionists and a great many of them are not Jewish.
Many of them are open antisemites even. Zionism and Antisemitism are allied ideologies.
The current right wing government also doesn’t represent every citizen of Israel either, but it is ok to use ‘Israel’ as a shorthand for the actions of the current right wing government when the actions are a continuation of decades of similar colonialism and the government is in power due to how the majority of the population voted.
So hatred against everyone in Israel is also wrong, but saying Israel is committing genocide doesn’t require saying it is the current government.
This meme should say “The actions of Israel does not represent the will of all Jews,”
Edit: I expect everyone who down voted also refrains from using Russia, China, or the United States and other names of countries when making criticisms for consistency. “Russia didn’t invade Ukraine, the current Putin led government did.”
It happens to be the Israel government that claims anything hamas does should be taken out on all Arabs in Gaza.
It’s only fair to offer them the same privilege - you elect a government and they represent your country. What they do the people has to answer for.
Should I be allowed to vote for someone that say “we should exterminate all swedes” and not stand to answer for that when they get power and start killing swedes?
Not everyone voted for him you dipshit.
When trump got elected, did every american vote for him? Use your fucking brain.
doesn’t matter much as he got elected. He shouldn’t be stopped from power by vote - he should be unable to run.
You need to take responsibility for your laws and how your society works.
Trumps people seem to understand this and makes actual change to how the US works.
To me it seems they are making it worse, but there’s no revolt, so I’m guessing people accept it, even if not cheering.
I need to take responsibility for MY laws? I vote for the most left party available in my country. What do you want me to do? Walk into the presidents office and slap his ass across the room?
A ton of people are protesting. We are doing our best. The government is not like the little sloth operated office from zootopia. They will beat the fuck out of you and turn you into swiss cheese with bullets if you revolt.
I can’t fight a tank or an army.
Or do you think i get a letter in the mail for every law so i can vote for that specific one or deny it?
I don’t think you do. But you have resigned because what can you do than protest?
In time when you are pushed even further down into the shit your kids will figure it out. People always do, it just takes time to get to that level - and leave the humanity behind.
And it sure looks like it’s going to shit really fast - with 1700-era laws for guns and forcing women to be reproduction-machines without a voice. Especially as you didn’t have that much freedom in the first place.
Applying your logic to the letter, does that mean that a German Communist who lost years of his life in Auschwitz for trying to oppose the nazi regime should be punished for failing to prevent Hitler from reaching power? How does that work?
How can I tell decent Jewish organizations from those who actively support genocide?
Read what they and their representatives publish and post on official social media accounts.
Those who support the genocide in deed are almost never shy about doing so with words too.
Anyways, Jewish Voice For Peace are the gold standard in accurate naming and one of the best anti war crime organizations in the world, so that’s at least one right there 🙂
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Legitimately, the fact that they’re an American org will usually be a fair indicator.
The zionist movement fell flat on its face in the US during the foundation of Israel, so most pro-palestinian jewish activism will be based out of the US as well.
This dynamic has intensified enough since that initial split that Israeli Judaism has actually taken on fundamentally different qualities from American Judaism, to the point where some scholars would consider them separate denominational groups.
It’s also fostered enough bad blood that a frequent dismissal of Israelis when hearing of Jews who oppose the settlement project is to say “they must just be stupid Americans.”
They legit try to do the "they aren’t authentic!" bit other old worlders and Latine folks will whip out when putting down their American cousins for not being identical to them, except with the Israelis it’s even funnier because bitch you ain’t where you came from either, that was literally the whole point of this great displacement project y’all whipped up!
This is why I try to specify that my complaints are about Netanyahu or the IDF.
And the Zionists.
I’m a little fuzzy on exactly what Zionism is, so I just don’t talk about it, rather than saying something accidentally racist, and/or making an ass of myself.
Someone correct me if im wrong, but Zionism is Isreali radical nationalism, their primary goal is the creation of a Jewish ethno-state in current isreal and palestine.
The Youtuber Shaun has a great video going through the history of the conflict and Zionism: https://youtu.be/3xottY-7m3k
You are mostly there. One of the most important notes is that the project is settler colonial, and it is also helpful to point out that zionism is older than Israel, and it has been around for over 100 years.
+1 on that Shaun vid, it’s great
Yea sorry, the creation of an ethno-state in palestine through colonialism. I did not know that its older than isreal though, good to know.
And shauns vids are top tier lol.
Any kind of Israeli nationalism can be zionism, doesn’t need to be radical.
I like this approach. I wish more people would be honest about the limits of their arguments instead of just saying whatever they think will help them ‘win’.
Thank you. It’s the result of hard earned experience!
Zionism is basically the belief that Jewish people deserve to own Palestine/Jerusalem (“Zion”) and that non-Jews should be ethnically cleansed from “Zion” (the Nakba)
The second part of your definition definitely isnt true for all forms of Zionism. Zionism is as broad of a political ideology as liberalism, conservativism or communism is. Some zionists will agree with that, some won’t or “soften” it to “we’ll let them stay as second class citizens lol”
Zionism is essentially the belief that Ethnically Jewish people deserve their own homeland. This usually translates to “Israel has a right to exist”.
This does not necessarily mean endorsement of ethnic cleansing. That is not the core of Zionism, it is the core of what you oppose, and you have been convinced to casually refer to those things as Zionism.
Taking a hard-line against Zionism in this way is like saying “Catholicism is basically the belief that women should be brood mares”. Sure, Catholics are largely against Abortion, but they aren’t a monolith. You’re going to find plenty of members of the group that don’t tow the line on that.
In this sense, you are looking at the Israeli leaders that use Zionism as a justification for what they are doing to Gaza/Palestine et al, and deciding that everyone under the Zionist umbrella must be exactly the same. The problem here is that you’re dead wrong about what Zionists actually believe and are alienating people that might otherwise be your allies, because they can’t tell if you’re arguing that Palestine should be free, or if their friends and families in Israel deserve to be displaced, oppressed, or even murdered in revenge for the Nakba.
Yeah no. Jewish Israeli people can live in Palestine, with the Arabs they’re trying to displace, like Jews have for thousands of years before modern Israel existed. Israel is inherently, and has always been, an apartheid ethnostate and has no reason nor right to exist. Israeli nationalism is a bad thing and Israel’s entire purpose is Jewish supremacy. If you remove the “ethnostate” aspect of Israel, you don’t have Israel; there is no Israel without either apartheid or genocide of non-Jews.
Israel has no right to exist. No state really has any right to exist, but Israel’s existence is especially bad. It should be dissolved. That doesn’t mean displacement of the people that live there, that means the replacement of the Israeli state.
There are plenty of Israelis who were adults when Israel was founded, and participated in the extermination of Arabs during the colonial occupation, and cheered on the theft of their lands. They form the foundation of Israeli society, and most of the non-Arab Israeli populace still encourages the oppression and genocide of Arabs. I do not believe any individual who cheers on the genocide of the peoples their great-grandparents recently stole the lives of should have the “right” to live on the recently stolen land.
I don’t really use the term myself because I find it too vague. People shift what they mean when they use it so I stick to the actual concepts I’m discussing. The existence of a state for Jews and apartheid settler colonialism are morally polls apart.
This is a point I wish more people understood. I know more than one self-identified Zionist who is against Israel’s oppression of Palestine, and even refers to it as Genocide. They understand how Zionism motivated it, but they themselves are not in agreement with Israel even though they identify as Zionist.
It’s like if the pro-choice movement were branded as an anti-Catholic, since Sectarian Catholic Christians are some of the most outspoken against Abortion. While there is plenty of blame that Catholicism deserves, making that your central message alienates pro-choice Catholics.
Or how Communism and Socialism are frequently equivocated with Authoritarianism because there were a handful of far-left dictators through recent history. Make that your central message and you alienate all the leftists that don’t stand for that.
anti-Zionism might feel properly directed, but for Jews it always leaves the question of “what part of Zionism are you against?”, Because Zionism is a more complex philosophy than “Oppress Palestinians”. Making it your central message alienates Zionist Jews that are not in favor of the violent nationalism of the Israeli government.
That we even have to stop and remind people not to straight up blame Jewish people for what’s happening makes it clear that the messaging here is questionable. Finding a convenient label to encapsulate everything you oppose in a situation may be rhetorically convenient, but oversimplified messaging can also lead to miscommunication and overly-broad statements of blame against groups that don’t necessarily deserve it.
I clarify my complaints are about Israel, the state, not Jewish people who do not live in the country.
You cannot have Netanyahu or the IDF without Israel existing.
… Yep… And we repeat that sentiment for Hamas.
Yes, thank you!
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I’m very opposed to Israels current actions. I don’t think Israel should have been created. I think they are guilty of genocide and apartheid. None of that makes is OK to talk of dismantling Israel. The fact that they have committed hateful crimes against humanity does not justify visiting similar crimes against them. You cannot just dispossess a whole people of their land. It’s a crime when Israel does it and it would be a crime to do it to them, too
makes is OK to talk of dismantling Israel.
It is perfectly okay - and necessary - to talk about dismantling Israel. It is even more okay to actually do it.
You cannot just dispossess a whole people of their land.
You mean… like was done by Israel since 1948? I’m going to guess you also think the Soviet Union tossing Nazi Germany out of western Russia was some “great injustice?”
It’s amazing how easily you liberals turn pro-colonialist at the drop of a hat. It’s almost like you’re no less right-wing than your (so-called) “conservative” cousins - you just need a different flavor of propaganda before you start shilling for the status quo.
FFS I’m not a liberal. At least not in the sense that Americans use the word. I’m anti crimes against humanity.
I don’t know why you bother talking to anyone on social media if you’re just going to to make up what you imagine they’re saying.
I’m not a liberal
You sure about that? Pearl-clutching about a genocidal white supremacist state’s crimes while unwilling to entertain the idea of actually doing anything real about it sounds like garden-variety liberal SOP to me.
You have no idea what I think
Then tell me what you think… as opposed to what the lib media has told you to think.
Oh fuck off you facetious fuck. You fucking lob insults at me in post after post and now you want me to spend time explaining myself to you? Go fuck yourself
Most people living there (with or without Israeli passport) do not want to be complicit in the project you are describing, so clearly no. What you are describing is the agenda of a minority.
so clearly no.
Which part of…
Israel is a genocidal white supremacist settler-colonialist project regardless of what government it has.
…didn’t you comprehend the first time around?
You dehumanize people for existing in a social construct they have not created and most of them have not chosen and some of them have no option of leaving. You write as if you want to protect people from hatred or atrocities, yet your wording is nothing but fuelling more hatred and atrocities.
You dehumanize people for existing in a social construct they have not created
And again - which part of…
Israel is a genocidal white supremacist settler-colonialist project regardless of what government it has.
…are you still having a hard time comprehending?
It does not matter what this or that individual Israeli citizen’s personal feels are on the matter - it does not change the fact that Israel is a genocidal white supremacist settler-colonialist project regardless of what government it has.
There’s nothing complicated about this.
it does represent most of israel though.
I mean his “actions” in gaza has 85% rating in israel and alot of other 15% is that he doesn’t do enough.
Read from Israeli activists like Ilan Papé describe the Israeli society as a fascist supremacist society. they don’t care about the right of Palestinians to live freely on their land.
I’m not arguing that what you’re saying isn’t true, but what does it have to do with OP’s post?
Participating in the Israeli conquest and ethnic purge absolutely deserves hatred and disgust.
This goes well beyond the Israeli’s right most partisan faction and extends to the entire Zionist movement.
Look, taking OP’s context into account, it sounds like you’re saying that you hold ethnic hatred and disgust for Jews.
I am hoping that’s not what you’re saying here, but again, looking at OP’s meme, and your responses to it and to me, I honestly can’t reach any other conclusion.
you hold ethnic hatred and disgust for Jews
Is Zionism an ethnicity? Does that mean anti-Zionist Jews aren’t Jewish?
I honestly can’t reach any other conclusion
Reach harder
That’s not what I’m saying. I’m saying that OP said that hatred of Jews isn’t justified, and you sound like you are disagreeing.
OP said that hatred of Jews isn’t justified
Conflating anti-Zionism with anti-Semitism is a right wing Israel talking point.
I thought we established that we don’t like them
I wasn’t talking about all jews around the world of course not, but arguing that Jewish people living in Israel and other jews supporting Israel are just as equally as responsible as the state of Israel. you wouldn’t even hear a shred of concern towards the Palestinians beings bombed by their own people with their own money.
The very belief that the decisions of the powerful few are a reflection of the opinions of the people as a whole is how we got ourselves into this mess in the first place…
I wish we could say the same about Israelis.
Not all Israelis support netanyahu or the death/colonisation. Even if maybe the majority do.
Too many do, unfortunately.
Israel’s democratically elected right wing government.
The US had Trump for 4 years and are threatening to do it again, so we don’t have a finger to point.
Yeh, and I’d say he’s fairly representative of the US.
I’m sorry but i just don’t agree with that.
Even if 70% voted for trump, the other 30% are good people and don’t deserve to be thrown in with the fascists.
But, in that hypothetical, it would be true to say that 70% of Americans support fascism. Which is unpleasant to have to accept.
I learned at the Brexit referendum that 52% of my countrymen are so racist they’d wreck their own economy to reduce immigration. I have to live with that. I live in a racist country.
That (and the trump election actually) was only possible with a massive amount of disinformation and populism. I don’t think everyone that voted like that was properly informed.
Counterpoint: Bollocks though. Most of the disinformation was to appeal to people’s desire for authoritarianism in Trump’s case, and border control in Brexit’s. With plenty of bleedover, of course, because it’s all from the same playbook.
No, not being a magat does not make you a good person by default.
There a plenty of people that would vote for a slightly more palatable republican. Or trump if he wasn’t coming for them personally.
Like I know plenty of people who are immigrants or descendents of immigrants who would be all for purging trans people, restricting women’s rights to abortion etc. But won’t vote Trump because of how anti immigrant/ racist he is.
They violate human rights, it doesn’t really matter to me if they are elected.
Im saying its not just the government to blame, the people of israel are also responsible.
They didn’t all vote for the current government.
Is elected by Israelis, and not Jews in general, which is OP’s point.
It feels like Jews are the ones who need to understand this
Not “Jews”, but zionists specifically, who purposefully conflate themselves with Jews as a whole in order to label their opponents as antisemitic.
