Hello all, this is the first post in a series of posts I’ll be making weekly to drum up some diverse discussion relating to all different aspects of gaming. I figured I would start with what I know, and so the first topic is thus: roguelike games. (If you think any of the below description is wrong or misleading, let me know - that’s part of the discussion!)
The name of this genre is derived from the game Rogue, released in 1980. The exact definition of a roguelike has been a topic of discussion for a long time, but the core tenets are usually agreed upon to be random/procedural generation and permanent death (no saving and continuing a run, you have to start over). Many roguelikes have an additional increased focus on collecting items and assembling a “build” over the course of a run. A “pure” roguelike is often claimed to have no meta-progression (that is, no procedural unlocks) and focus more on the journey than the destination - seeing how far you can get, or how high a score you can achieve, rather than reaching a distinct victory condition (not that these games don’t have victory conditions, but that it isn’t the end-all-be-all). The secondary term “roguelite” is often brought out to describe games that deviate from this. Additionally, the term “traditional roguelike” is sometimes employed to indicate a more strict adherence to the older style of this genre, with grid-based dungeon crawling and high complexity. Ultimately, as with a lot of genres, pinning down a 100% ironclad definition is near impossible, but most people that like this type of game could tell you the general “vibe” at a glance.
Here are some questions and subtopics that I encourage people to discuss:
- What are some of your favorite examples of roguelike games?
- What roguelike games do you think stand out in terms of defying the conventions of the genre?
- Do you find there to be a meaningful difference between the usage of “roguelike” and “roguelite” nowadays? Which do you prefer? Where does the “traditional roguelike” fit into this?
- Do you continue to play roguelike games after reaching the “end” / reaching 100% completion? Why, or why not?
- What other genre do you most often enjoy seeing paired with roguelike?
- Is any game with procedural generation and a run-based structure a roguelike, or is there more to it? Where do you personally draw the line?
- What have been some of your best runs across all roguelike games? What’s been memorable?
- Are there any upcoming roguelike games you’re excited for?
Also feel free to bring up anything you like related to the topic! If you have suggestions for future discussion topics, leave them in the suggestion thread.
Additional Resources
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Roguebasin, a wiki dedicated to roguelikes (specifically traditional roguelikes)
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List of all Weekly Discussion Topics(this is the first one, be patient!)
My personal definition of ‘roguelike’ is a game that is turn based, with perma-death and procedural generation, and ideally is also grid-based. A ‘traditional roguelike,’ to me, is more a specific set of games (Angband, NetHack, etc.), rather than a genre, but if you did want to use ‘traditional roguelike’ as a genre, it’d have all of the above, plus be a fantasy dungeon-crawler RPG. I also do think roguelikes and rogue-lites are meaningfully distinct, or atleast should be, even if most people don’t consider them to be. Rogue-lites can be very fun games, but when I want a roguelike, I want a roguelike, not a fast-paced bullet hell whatever. The best roguelikes I’ve played thus far are Cataclysm: Dark Days Ahead (CDDA), and Cogmind. Plus I’ve been thinking of picking up Jupiter Hell and Dead Cells when I can, though AFAIK Dead Cells is more of a rogue-lite than a roguelike.
One more thing I think is relevant to the discussion on the meaning of ‘roguelike’ is the Berlin Interpretation, though I personally think it’s a touch too narrow to be a usable, non-academic definition. Plus roguebasin (where that link is) could probably be placed in the Additional Resources section, being a wiki dedicated to roguelikes.
holy f.
what a buch of ner. . . i mean . . .rogues.
I think the Berlin Interpretation should be revisited. It should not be set in stone.
Oh yes, I found this and debated including it in the post but personally felt that it was an overly narrow definition. I’ll add Roguebasin to the resources though!
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Old school upvote and boost for the Angband and Hack links.
Though I’ve played games of the roguelike/lite genre for a while, I actually had to do a bit more of a deep dive to make this post. People ascribe a lot of different meanings to roguelike, and I got entirely conflicting messages on why the term roguelite was created. I hope what I put down is accurate enough!
Yeah, opinions on roguelikes/-lites are definitely very divisive, a problem I think that mostly comes down to prescriptive vs descriptive linguistics. Given that, I think you’ve done a perfectly good job in the OP.
Do yourself a favor and pick up Dead Cells. It’s absolutely amazing.
They’ve added so much content to it over the years but the runs are still like 30-45 minutes. The randomized items and gear are masterfully done. It’s like mini-diablo gear builds in 30 minutes, but better than recent Diablos. You get item synergies going etc.
The platforming/combat is snappy and satisfying.
It also understands what makes roguelike games fun that a lot of roguelite games miss. Each run feels different and new so it’s always exciting to start a new run.
I played Rogue a lot back in the day. Also Hack a bit.
Shattered Pixel Dungeon is a fantastic roguelike. I’ve been playing it for years. The developer is great about updating it and adding new content and adjusting the mechanics. There is a community for Pixel Dungeon over at !PixelDungeon@lemmy.world
Proper link structure for a Lemmy community is !PixelDungeon@lemmy.world - this should work!
And I also have played SPD quite a lot. Despite it being free, I tossed the developer a couple dollars - they’ve been doing great work with it, a whole new class was added not too long ago. I’m only now picking it up again after some time, and I’ve only beaten the game with 2/5 characters, so I got a lot to learn to get good at it again.
Thank you! Fixed my link.
It’s a tough game. I managed to beat it with all 5 characters, but that took a while. Now I’m working on beating it with all 9 challenges enabled. I’m dying so much 😭
I concur, too. So far, I have conquered said dungeon with at least 3 character types in 6 differing runs; the most fun I had fun so far was the Huntress herself, for in one of those winning run, I chose the Warden’s path, coupled with the Nature’s Wrath armor upgrade. It made most of the lower levels bloom in grass and all sorts of seeds that probably upped my farming time by a couple of turns.
Such a badass force-of-nature run that was.
Also, Sprouted PD has a sublevel every 5th or 6th where it’s all hidden forest and mobs.
Sprouted PD is great! Lots of fun if you enioy grinding. The Wand of Amok is great in the lower levels.
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How come nobody mention The binding of Isaac???
You just did. What’d you think about it
I think it’s genre’s definition, any dev who want to make a rogue-like game should at least play this game before start making their game.
Hades and cult of the Lamb are great
Both are 🌟🌟🌟🌟🌟 games for sure, so polished.
Loved Hades, and Cult of the Lamb was really fun at first, but it lacked replayability in my opinion.
yea, hades is just a better game, but i still love cult!
Definitely in my goat list. It nails every aspect of what video games can be. I can’t wait to start anew.
I like the more roguelite type of games. I like that each run is different whether that means procedural generation of the map or just the starting weapons and pickups change throughout a run. Some of my favorite are the following:
- Dead Cells
- Inscryption - card game meets roguelite
- Cult of the Lamb - city builder meets roguelite
- Peglin - Peggle meets roguelite
- Dicey Dungeons - Roguelite deck builder
- Vampire Survivors - Dead simple game. Only one control!
I could probably come up with more and these aren’t in any particular order, but these are some standouts to me.
Inscryption is somethin special. It’s both a solid deckbuilding roguelite, a deconstruction of a deckbuilding roguelite, and a classic “don’t look up anything about this game just play it” game.
I’m a sucker for “don’t look up anything about this game just play it” game, so they just earned a sale thanks to you
I agree with all points. I was hooked for several days. I look forward to playing Kaycee’s Mod soon.
Slay the Spire is a complete 10/10 for deck builder roguelike.
I don’t remember buying that, but it’s in my Steam Library and Steam Deck Verified. That’s going on the list.
I have dead cells and probably have about 45 hours in it and something about it just bugs me. I don’t like the gameplay and can’t really put my finger on why.
I absolutely love inscription and have been thinking about going back to play the mod version. That said phase 2 was my least favorite
I have just shy of 13 hours in Dead Cells. It’s not something I play extensively. It’s one that I pickup, play a run or two, and move on. When I don’t have much time to devote.
I haven’t tried the Kaycee’s Mod (I didn’t double-check my spelling) addon for Inscryption yet. I was trying to beat Cult of the Lamb first. Both are some of my favorite games in the last few years though.
Yeah Kaycee’s mod is it. It seems like it adds a lot to the game.
Is it just not a campaign? Like you just keep going until you die? I feel like that’s what I saw about it. I need to try it soon
My favorite is Caves Of Qud. The amount of freedom in character build and progression options is just unlike anything else I’ve tried. Also the very distinguishable graphics make it more interesting to me, because “games don’t need to be pretty to be crazy fun”.
I discovered it thanks to Sseth. His other recommended roguelike games (Synthetik, NEO Scavenger, Cataclysm: Dark Days Ahead) are all great in their own way.
Qud
Have you ever “won” Qud? I’ve playing it intermittently for several years, and eventhough each time I get farther and farther I usually get bored and die. It doesn’t help that I only play in the ironman mode hahaha, the other modes seem too vanilla, but who knows.
“Sometimes it’s not about the destination, but about the journey itself”
- Aoygtetherox-No-Longer, Queen of the highly entropic beings
I like the more platformer style rogue-lites, a couple favorites that haven’t been mentioned yet are 20XX (rogue-lite tribute/spiritual successor to Mega Man X) and Rogue Legacy (first rogue-lite I ever played, perhaps not as hard as others). For top-down ones I had a bit of fun with Wizard of Legend as well. Never have beaten a roguelike/-lite, but I’ve gotten a decent way into each of the above.
Before I get into curmudgeon mode, I want to plug my two favorite roguelikes:
- Cataclysm: Dark Days Ahead - Zombie/sci-fi apocalypse survival roguelike with a bonkers level of depth to it. It’s very actively developed, and the devs are constantly adding more stuff to it. They also have their own lemmy instance at cdda.social.
- Doom Roguelike - Perfectly encapsulates the early Doom games in roguelike form. This one is on the opposite end of the complexity spectrum from CDDA. Much simpler gameplay, though still highly tactical and challenging when you crank the difficulty up. The same author has created a spiritual successor, Jupiter Hell. I haven’t logged enough hours for it to supplant DoomRL’s position yet, but I do have to say that the atmosphere of it is fucking amazing.
With that out of the way, let’s move on to “old man yells at Rogue Legacy”:
The term “roguelike” has been stretched to the point of uselessness, often for marketing purposes. This necessitated the introduction of the term “traditional roguelike” for those of us that still want to discuss actual roguelikes. Binding of Isaac, Dwarf Fortess (fortress mode), Dead Cells, and Slay the Spire are all excellent games, but they’re not roguelikes in any useful sense. If I’m looking for games that are “like Rogue”, none of those are good suggestions. Moria, Nethack, Pixel Dungeon, DCSS, and DoomRL are.
Cataclysm: DDA occupies a bit of a weird space here. It fits within the technical definition of a traditional roguelike, but the overall experience is more of a departure from Rogue than other traditional roguelikes are. It’s almost more akin to Minecraft or Terraria, in that you face dangers to gather resources to create items to face bigger dangers to gather more exotic resources to create more powerful items… and so on. I sometimes refer to this type of roguelike as “neotraditional”, in order to acknowledge this departure.
Before anyone accuses me of being prescriptivist, sometimes prescriptivism is important. I’m not for haranguing people over every terminological deviation, but some terms are unique and useful, and we should try not to muddy them. “Begs the question” and “reactionary” come to mind. “Roguelike” was one, but it’s pretty far gone at this point.
The trouble with “gamelike” as a descriptor is really well illustrated here. People will always disagree on how alike the games have to be for it to fit or what particular things it needs to do the same to match, while others will argue that something they play feels like game so it is now gamelike.
Early roguelike games took something rogue did first (repeating often procedural gameplay that at least mostly resets on death) and often ignored other aspects. Arguing about what exact criteria necessary or sufficient to make a game roguelike is like arguing whether a song counts as “punk” or “pop” or “metal”. Different people will feel like it does or doesn’t fit into any particular category for one or another reason, but ultimately the categories exist because some people put things in them and that’s it.
IMO it’s not really a genre, since gameplay can vary so widely. It’s more like a template for a progression system that can be applied to many different genres.
Yeah I’m making a rogue like RTS.
Really? Would love to learn more
Against the storm is a “no combat” rogue-like RTS.
It has a progression system, random starting building, difficulty modifiers, and each “round” is you building a colony with various challenges that you wont visit again, but has persistent effects that grant unlocks.
Calling it an RTS is probably going to give people wrong expectations, as they tend to be built around unit-to-unit combat tactics.
I’d say it’s a town builder with time pressure.
Sweet! I think I saw trailers for it 6 months ago.
I’ll check it out
My top three are FTL, Hades, Enter the Gungeon
One of my least favorite genres.
What don’t you like about it?
I ask this question in the interest in generating more discussion; there are many genres that I personally don’t like that I know others do.
Most of it boils down to death as a core mechanic. I’m also a pretty casual game player and most of the games I like are fairly laid back, so the difficulty is also a factor. Although I do like difficult games sometimes, I don’t like games designed to kill you easily, if that makes sense. I dislike grinding and most leveling systems, so making a game have grinding as a necessity for someone like me who’s going to need it is frustrating. I feel like I’m just dying a bunch to get “level ups” so that I can actually play the game. Feel free to ask clarifying questions on this. It’s a bit difficult for me to explain, I’m finding.
For the record and to hopefully explain with an example, I do like that they exist for people that like them and some games are fairly clever with it. Hades, for instance, makes a lot of sense to have a death mechanic because you’re trying to escape the underworld. It’s also a really clever game in general and I wish I could get over the difficulty and meta progression thing to play it. If it was a less difficult ARPG I’d personally like it more, but it wouldn’t contain the thing that makes it what it is and I think I’d rather it exist as it does for people who like that. I also love the idea of descendants being your respawn that they used in Rogue Legacy.
For the record and to hopefully explain with an example, I do like that they exist for people that like them and some games are fairly clever with it.
Oh I know. I apologize for the negative response you’re getting, but I really do appreciate outside perspectives from people who don’t like the thing - it can point out flaws that may be missed otherwise.
Most of it boils down to death as a core mechanic. I’m also a pretty casual game player and most of the games I like are fairly laid back, so the difficulty is also a factor. Although I do like difficult games sometimes, I don’t like games designed to kill you easily, if that makes sense. I dislike grinding and most leveling systems, so making a game have grinding as a necessity for someone like me who’s going to need it is frustrating. I feel like I’m just dying a bunch to get “level ups” so that I can actually play the game. Feel free to ask clarifying questions on this. It’s a bit difficult for me to explain, I’m finding.
This is mostly a feature of the modern roguelike, or rather roguelite - the metaprogression in general. Some roguelikes that aim to be truer to the original classification forgo this, like Pixel Dungeon and its variants - you could win on your very first run, the only thing holding you back would be the lack of accumulated knowledge and skill. All still involve a good amount of dying, though, which can be a turnoff - early runs can feel bland if the balance isn’t right, and even later on the first part of each run can feel similarly bland if the game is more item-and-build based, as most don’t give you much in the terms of starting items. I’ve felt this especially hard in games like The Binding of Isaac - outside of characters that deviate more from the standard, a lot of runs are a painful slog where you get a not very impactful item on the first floor and have to make your way through with base stats for a while.
If you want a random off-the-cuff suggestion from an internet stranger about a game in a genre you don’t like, I tried out the demo for Wizard with a Gun during the last Steam NextFest. It is by some measure a roguelite, as it has a run based structure, but each run is rather short and if you don’t die, you can escape back to a hub area with all of your resources, without losing anything, store some away for safe keeping and continue the next run from there. It has crafting and building elements (resource gathering and a research tree, but no hunger system or anything like that) and I quite liked it from what little I saw.
Against the Storm is a pretty interesting roguelike I played recently. In each “run” you build a small town. It’s kinda like Banished or SimCity.
I’m not playing it anymore, but I thought the concept was cool.
I picked this up, played it for about twenty hours. I definitely enjoyed my time, but I could clearly feel how most of the game loop was just scraping by until you could fully pop off at the end - I liked that, but I grew a bit weary of the initial setup on each run.
NetHack. With the ASCII graphics. And not because I’m hardcore, I’m actually really bad at it. And I hate the item identification mechanic. But there’s something magical about this game. It feels alive, and the ASCII graphics give it a mystery that can’t be matched by visual spectacles. Idk it’s hard to explain, it’s like a love hate relationship
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Oh my god, I assumed no one would have ever heard of Wazhack. I bought that one years ago, and am continually surprised when it receives updates. Dev seems like a cool guy, too.
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Thanks for the explanation!
The roguelike I keep coming back to these days is Dome Keeper. Resource mining + fighting monsters + casual play duration is a combo I find hard to beat at the moment.
