A tiny, low-priced electric car called the Seagull has American automakers and politicians trembling.
The car, launched last year by Chinese automaker BYD, sells for around $12,000 in China, but drives well and is put together with craftsmanship that rivals U.S.-made electric vehicles that cost three times as much. A shorter-range version costs under $10,000.
Tariffs on imported Chinese vehicles probably will keep the Seagull away from America’s shores for now, and it likely would sell for more than 12 grand if imported.
But the rapid emergence of low-priced EVs from China could shake up the global auto industry in ways not seen since Japanese makers exploded on the scene during the oil crises of the 1970s. BYD, which stands for “Build Your Dreams,” could be a nightmare for the U.S. auto industry.
“Any car company that’s not paying attention to them as a competitor is going to be lost when they hit their market,” said Sam Fiorani, a vice president at AutoForecast Solutions near Philadelphia. “BYD’s entry into the U.S. market isn’t an if. It’s a when.”
A tiny, low-priced electric car called the Seagull has American automakers and politicians trembling.
Hyperbole as rhetorical device is getting exhausting and makes me extremely skeptical.
This whole article is just paid marketing. Some AP journalist didn’t tear this car down and analyze its build quality.
I stopped reading there.
Thanks for letting us know.
You’re welcome
a threat to US auto industry? You promise? Cus US auto industry is a climate killing powerhouse of gas guzzling SUV’s. Any politicians wanting to pretend to be capitalist, or to be in favor of the environment, let me buy this car.
No one i know under 50 years old wants a giant truck or suv, and thats all they wanna sell us. My only friends with new car $ bought a small wagon, which is all I’d want myself.
Those huge electric pickups are too heavy for our guardrails on top of everything else; it’s insane and dangerous to let the big three make car culture here even worse.
I know so many boomers with fucking monster vehicles. Even my car nut friends daily drive sedans and small EV’s. We’re not idiots or rich.
We’re not idiots or rich
So poor people drive smaller, cheaper cars. Got it.
You’re just in different circles, I suppose.
I think you’re reading into it the wrong way buddy.
I don’t have the money for a big car and don’t need one. Taking out a massive loan just to have a big car would be idiotic.
No one i know under 50 years old wants a giant truck or suv
Where could we even park them if we did? My garage barely fits the two sedans my wife and I need to get to work on opposite sides of town, in a city with functionally no mass transit.
I might not mind owning a single SUV if I used it exclusively for long trips and as a make-shift camping van. But I simply do not have the acreage in my postage-stamp lot size of a three-story walk-up to host more than that. Not that some of my neighbors don’t try, clogging all the sidewalks and curb spaces with their monster trucks.
Then you just don’t know many people. Or live in a bubble. I see people in their twenties driving trucks in the richest city in my state known for being a hyper liberal college town.
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The bigger issue is the U.S. auto dealership industry.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/climate-solutions/2023/11/09/car-dealerships-ev-sales/
If dealerships refuse to sell EVs, what can be done? Especially in states where cars can only be sold from licensed dealerships?
If dealerships refuse to sell EVs, what can be done?
Direct sales, which is becoming increasingly popular in a car market where dealership market ups price people out of purchases.
Especially in states where cars can only be sold from licensed dealerships?
We’ll see how long that lasts. Dealerships are the last great American petty aristocracy in a business environment that’s increasingly all about absolute monarchies. Tesla has already been lobbying hard to overturn the ban on direct sales in Texas, and is doing plenty to end-run the system in the meanwhile. Amazon would love to get into the automotive market (we’ll see where they go with their Rivian partnership). Silicon Valley hates these guys for getting in the way of their own drop shipping schemes. And its just a matter of time before the dam bursts.
You can’t do direct sales in a lot of states.
Amazon is not a manufacturer. They should be able to act as a dealer and the only problem being all the different paperwork for all the different states
I don’t see a problem here. If the US auto makers are so worried, they should buy a few of them, copy their secrets, and sell them at a marked down price.
Turnabout is fair play, after all.They’d prefer to sell you a giant SUV or truck with massive profit margins and so they can continue to flout emissions standards.
Don’t forget our big three are just chomping at the bit to get in on the subscription model. Oh, you want ‘good’ brakes, well that’s $19.99/month. And there’s no ‘secrets’ to the chinese cars, I am willing to bet that they are just selling them at a loss. It’s not like they have to report real earnings to anyone.
They are just trying to kill the entire car industry. Which, at this point I could give a shit about. Car manufacturer seem to think that a car should be an investment… Except it depreciates.
Personally I’m not sure I would want that car as my only vehicle because I only have space for one car, but if I get a bigger place with a two car garage I would definitely be interested in a small electric car that doesn’t break my budget. I would probably use it 1/5 trips.
I saw an article somewhere on lemmy recently that had some commentary from an American tear-down r&d type shop that said they think BYD makes a small profit on them
Very interesting. But the cynic in me says that even if we could tear it down and learn from it, we would manage to negate the savings with other costs. If they are making a profit, even if it’s tiny, that would still negate the tin foil hat people from being able to say they are just using them in infiltrate our nation with their spying and devious ways. Well one would think, but tin foil hat people will find a way to work around that, because what’s the best way to hide that you are infiltrating our nation then making it look like you are making a tiny profit. (Taps forehead…)
This is an EV. There isn’t any emissions to be concerned about. At least not from the car itself.
Right, but it’s easier to continue to flout those standards than to build a high quality and affordable EV, with comparable profit margins. And the marketing is easier (“You’re not a real man without this giant truck!”).
They sell what buyers want. Look at sales numbers of small cars versus everything else.
So small imported EVs aren’t actually a threat, then?
They are a threat when they’re sold well below cost due to the Chinese government’s massive subsidies which make it impossible for any other non-Chinese manufacturer in the world to compete with them.
Sounds like what buyers want is cheap cars then.
Yeah just like they want cheap products when Walmart comes to town and before too long the local economy is in the crapper as all the town’s revenue gets funneled to Arkansas.
What you’re advocating for is a race to the bottom just so you can buy one (maybe two!) new car(s) instead of an affordable used car like most people do. Let China sell their cars here with the same subsidies that every other company qualifies for on a level playing field.
Buyers do not want them, at least not anymore
They’ve been saying that axing the small sedan was to put money into EV. Seems they lied to pocket it, but we get nothing because free market capitalism is bullshit.
That article simply states the sales of the Dodge Ram and Ford F150 were down last quarter and makes no mention of any other segment or manufacturer. Dodge hasn’t made a small sedan since 2016 and Ford hasn’t made one since 2020
Huh, and I haven’t bought a vehicle from either since before then. What an amazing coincidence!
They built pretty shitty cars anyways so its no great loss
Someone has to pay for the R&D to make EV’s possible. So far, that’s not BYD. It’s been US and European countries.
The problem is the companies in China are backed by government funding that allows them to operate at a loss. To be clear, no governments should be spending public funds on propping up automotive companies. It’s a move to try and manipulate the market.
The problem is the companies in China are backed by government funding that allows them to operate at a loss.
So are the Big Three, every time they fail to see what’s in front of their noses and get into trouble.
And they are setup for another fail right now, nothing but suvs on their lots and realistically gas has nowhere to go but up again.
Should’ve let them fall last time instead of the big bailouts.
nothing but suvs on their lots
Not true. They also have trucks
Who are the Big Three to you? Dodge/Chrysler/Jeep is owned by a Scandanavian company.
If that were actually the case wouldn’t we want them sold here at a loss so we could drain resources from the Chinese government.
Americans forced the world into the capitalist system, and now they don’t like it when China does capitalism. Why are they so afraid of the free market?
Except it’s not capitalism when China does it, it’s socialism. The EV manufacturers like BYD have had massive subsidies from the state to bring those products to market, and that level of state support and intervention is not palatable to Americans.
Political, Climate change and National Security concerns aside, the subsidies are how the US government are about to justify the tariffs.
So are massive subsidies only socialism when China does it?
The US has been doing that for decades.
yes but then the US doesn’t expect to sell huge quantities of its cars in China and upset the market. Nor would China permit that.
They not only sell huge quantities of cars in China, they export new and used cars to China for sale.
They’re not upsetting the market because they’re already a huge part of it.
Upsetting the market is generally good for consumers. Why exactly would you want to lick the boots of American auto manufacturers when they’re actively price gouging in the absence of any competition?
We can talk about the massive subsidies the US government did and do to the automakers. The propaganda paid with tax money to have a centered car environment.
Each country subsidies its automaker but doesn’t want the other to do so because “Free market™”. It’s at best hypocrite.
It’s easy to build a cheap car when you ignore the human rights of your workers and the environmental damage of your production process.
Lol western nations dint give a fuck about that. They just externalized the environmental costs to China and other poor nations until now and then sold the end result to their customers. The only problem is that that US doesn’t own the company.
Ford when they outsourced to South Africa during their apartheid for cheap exploit labor
All 3 American automakers who already outsourced to Mexico right now to do the exact same thing
Yellen telling China to scale back eco tech production to protect American profits
Ah yes America, the global leader in human rights and environmental protection.
Or our businesses don’t want this type of competition? An affordable and reliable sub 10k EV? This would hurt our businesses and billionaire class, no?
If I needed a new car, and had a 10k EV as an option, it’d be my first choice to look into.
Por que no los dos, though.
Our businesses can’t compete because we don’t want poison in our air/water, cars made with child labor, or factories that regularly maim or kill employees.
It’s okay when we do it because our factories at least looks clean and modern despite all that shit happening anyway.
… are you from the USA?
Yes. As bad as you think we are, China is worse.
You manufacture EVERYTHING in China.
WTF
Translation: I’ve brought into the idea that america is the best and therfore without any evidence I’ll assume that every bad thing that happens is worse in China.
It’s weird that people acknowledge china has made huge investments in modernizing industry while america has not but then act like investing trillions in high tech manifacturing has changed nothing and the country is still just guys in pointy straw hats scratching at the dirt.
Go look at the dji factory, it’s a beautifully elegant engineering masterpiece as or more advanced than any western factory. The design is efficient, robust, and retoolable with workers getting good wages and a range of benefits that rival or exceed similar employment in Europe or the US, most working 9-5 in good safe conditions with adequate breaks.
MiC25 the project to invest in and promote Chinese tech manifacturing is reaching maturity and exactly what was intended and expected is happening. The lesson should be that investing in infrastructure and modernization is a great idea but instead people want to dismiss that and say ‘no surely things are always better here in the west where the only investments we make are bailing out the rich every time they fuck up’
Yes china has a lot of problems like any county, just assuming that everything they do is evil and terrible makes no sense.
I don’t think America is the best either, just less bad than China in most cases.
still just guys in pointy straw hats scratching at the dirt.
As of 2023, 40% of the Chinese workforce is engaged in farming, primarily at the small scale. Your racist implications aside, a large portion of the country is still relatively undeveloped.
China executes more than 1000 people every year, sometimes for things which are protected rights in the US like political dissidence (aka free speech). They are the #1 country in numbers of executions. They kill more people than the next 10 countries on the list combined.
China is the world’s largest emitter of greenhouse gases; the largest source of marine debris; the worst perpetrators of illegal, unreported, and unregulated fishing; and the world’s largest consumer of trafficked wildlife and timber products.
The Chinese government regularly spies on its own citizens, censors what their citizens know, and manipulates them with propaganda.
China has 5 times the workforce as the US but 16 times the workplace fatality rate. More than 225 Chinese people die from workplace accidents.
China regularly holds more than 1 million people in internment camps. In these camps many are abused, tortured, raped, or used as slave labor. That is on top of the 1.7 million people in the penal system where torture is regularly used as punishment.
But yeah, they have one or two nice looking factories.
Our businesses can’t compete because we spent the last 30 years outsourcing all of our manufacturing and production to cut cost.
Look at the rivers here and tell me with a straight face that we give a meaningful pity fuck about the environment.
Do you have any idea how bad the rivers used to be? A river outside Cleveland used to catch on fire and a river in Chicago used to bubble due to all the rotting slaughterhouse runoff.
Where is your evidence of these claims
I’ve been online long enough to know a sealion is coming when I see one. Not engaging.
Riiight. Running from providing actual proof isn’t the own you think it is.
I addressed it in another comment
Problem is, that goes for expensive cars as well.
At some point we need to decide are we in the West are either (a) importing cheap small cars from China, or (b) stopping poor people from driving. Because petrol is on the way out.
That’s why ebikes and scooters are becoming so popular. Small short range mobility vehicles are filling the gap.
I think that’s the key tbh. Most people aren’t going to need a massive car for going about town. Just something that can carry your shopping and get you to work and back will do.
I just wish I didn’t have to choose between a small car and a car that won’t get stuck in the snow. I don’t know why they think small cars must also have a small ground clearance.
Exactly!
The car still sucks ass, dude. Literally no one is buying cheap Chinese shit that has a million problems. They’re not even close.
OK but let’s talk about the practical thing, how do I, a random American, get one?
Drive it over the border from Mexico. Although, you’ll likely have to pay above the sticker price. Latin Americans are gobbling up Chinese NEVs as fast as they can deliver them.
I don’t know if the laws have changed but (for some reason I forget), a dealership here imported two three-wheeled small pickup trucks from China within the last decade or so. So it was at least possible within the recent past somehow.
China: offers affordable EV
US Auto: NOoooooooooooooo!!
I won’t defend the US auto industry, but there are issues in play here that might not be obvious. For example:
Those are just excuses:
- Dumping: US auto industry is enjoying significant protectionism right now, with the excuse of combatting dumping. They have a grace period to catch up, but instead they’re backing off, retreating into their shells. We’re spending hundreds of billions of dollars to give them a chance to compete fairly and they’re throwing it away. I’ll have sympathy if they at least try.
- Surveillance: US auto industry and especially EVs are horrible with surveillance right now. You not only have no privacy, they commonly have cameras inside and can control your vehicle remotely. Those Chinese surveillance devices aren’t doing anything different from anyone else: they’re all violating our privacy and we have no protection. It’s not that I’m not afraid of Chinese surveillance devices but that I’m also afraid of US corporate surveillance devices. Let a have some actual privacy protections we can apply equally and fairly to all of them
Those are just excuses
They might be used as excuses by a complacent industry, but they are not just excuses. They are also valid reasons for concern, and would still be so even if not used as talking points for Detroit lobbyists.
US auto industry is enjoying significant protectionism right now
Regardless of that, China’s government has spent more than a few years subsidizing products and services in order to make their exports dirt cheap abroad, eventually making other nations dependent on them. (See also: the Belt and Road Initiative.) This fits the same pattern, and would still be a problem even if US auto industry protectionism didn’t exist.
US auto industry and especially EVs are horrible with surveillance right now.
Agreed, but once again, that doesn’t invalidate the problem that I mentioned. A foreign adversary having deep, real-time access to the nation’s infrastructure, traffic patterns, sensitive information revealed through conversations and cameras, etc. is a larger problem than the personal privacy issues that already exist domestically.
Chinese surveillance devices aren’t doing anything different from anyone else: they’re all violating our privacy and we have no protection.
The difference lies in where the collected information goes. That might not matter to some people on a personal level, but on a national scale, handing all that info to an adversary nation is cause for concern.
As opposed to them buying it from data brokers? There’s a difference in responsiveness and I’m sure data brokers make a pretense of anonymizing that will need a bit of adjustment, but I’m not convinced it’s as different as everyone is afraid of
As opposed to them buying it from data brokers?
That would also be a cause for concern. Both should be addressed.
Those are probably both totally relevant points but it’s not going to matter because everyone’s suffering so much from inflation that they’ll go ahead and take the bait and buy it anyway. Even those that are aware of the intentional nature of the dumping and aware of the risks of surveillance won’t be able to responsibly buy a car that cost $60,000 when they can get one for 12k.
everyone’s suffering so much from inflation that they’ll go ahead
That, along with a bloated auto industry and terribly underdeveloped public transit. Here’s hoping this turn of events will lead to real progress in fixing these problems.
If so, it’ll be because enough people discover that the problem is the system itself.
I see your reasonable, logical arguments, and raise another Affordable EV.
A electric car that is not a SUV? I am in!!! Here in Canada the only option for EV are Prius and SUV. No small EV car under 20k. I say bring them on!! Otherwise I will continue to buy juices from arabian country.
The Big Three have already had Biden’s ear for a while on this, which is why he’s quadrupling tariffs on Chinese EVs this week. Source
What? The big three are trying to rig the game in their favor again? I’m very surprised! …not really, it’s business as usual from them.
I don’t want a Chinese car but at the same time if American automakers are going to continue refusing to make affordable electric cars and only give massive SUVs and trucks as our gas options then it seems like that’s pretty much the choice we’ll be left with.
Edit: if this frightens the Biden administration then they need to find a way to put pressure on American manufacturers to make some decent vehicles.
I’m really not a fan of China, but I’m inclined to agree. We need smaller, more affordable vehicles. SUVs are antiquated, and trucks are largely decorative for most of the population. We need smaller, lighter vehicles. Though we also should be investing much more into mass transit rather than (largely redundant) highways and roads anyways, as it’s a huge waste of taxpayer money. Keep the key highways, build rail to reduce reliance on shit we shouldn’t really be rebuilding anyways. A lot of highways are going to be hitting the end of their useful lives soon, anyways, and require rebuilds.
Cars which won’t pass inspection in the US and are only sold in China are no threat to anything.
and are only sold in China are no threat to anything.
The export model, the Dolphin Mini, is expected in Europe in 2025.
When I post a comment that mentions Europe I keep that in mind.
Are you suggesting that there is a material difference of minimal testing standard between the EU and the USA?
Capital interests might have something to say about it in the US. No way they’re letting the government allow those in.
They might not pass inspection, I don’t know. But that’s only in states with inspections. Not all states have those.
They still have regulations and certain standards need to be met. I think it’s set by the NHTSA.
Unless they’re over 25 years old. But then there’s state laws for that too. I just want my kei truck.
The seagull ev being discussed is not 25 years old.
Where as the States with no inspection are impoverished shit holes, I stand by my, ‘no threat’.
California is the largest economy in the United States, and one of the largest in the world. It’s also the one with the largest market for EVs in the US. As an added bonus, it’s very conveniently positioned on the west coast, with easy access to shipping lanes from China. And finally, it’s probably the state that’s least likely to care if a US auto maker on the other side of the nation is struggling. Only fifteen states in the US require inspections, and California isn’t one of them. In fact, the only state that isn’t on the east coast that requires an inspection is Texas. All other states have nothing but emissions tests, if that, and any EV would be excluded from those, for obvious reasons.
That would include Michigan, which is where they design a lot of US domestic cars.
Any new vehicle sold in the US needs to pass NHTSA standards. We’re not talking about emissions testing.
Would it not? I don’t know anything about that, so I can’t say, but would Biden be cracking down on imports if it wasn’t a concern for them?
I would say no at the prices they’re selling for in China. The crackdown is due to the massive subsidies being pumped into these manufacturers by the Chinese government which would make it impossible for any other manufacturer to compete with them since they’re selling them below cost.
That’s false. The same car is sold in Mexico & Brazil and probably other countries as well
Two other countries with extremely lax safety standards.
This may surprise you but US manufacturers count on a lot of income from selling outside the US. They’re all global conglomerates. Even looking through your roses colored glasses, do you really think legacy manufacturers will do well when they lose all of their global sales?
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I look at both sides here, where every new vehicle has a chip that tell the auto makers just about everything about you … but cheap, well-made EVs should be available to the average Joe, not just the wealthy.
What pisses me off the most is the Big Three have gotten billions in subsidies/corporate welfare, and instead of creating cheap EVs to fill the market they build gas-guzzling SUVs and full-sized trucks for $60k+ per.
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My son refuses to buy a new vehicle. He says the old ones run better and he’s able to fix them himself, which offsets the cost of maintaining any new vehicle.
I refuse as well, and will continue to refuse, at least until my 1997 and 2005 vehicles can no longer be repaired for some reason. I’d love some EV tech but the idea of driving a Big Brother vehicle that’s fender-to-fender loaded with spyware and “features” that can only be enabled via subscriptions is horrifying and dystopian. Also forget all the Big Screen distractions inside and all the self-driving antifeatures. At least 1/2 of my driving is done for pleasure and I expect to be focusing on the road and what’s happening around me.
They have to sell cars. I hear the EV F-150 is selling like shit despite all the interest online, which really disappoints me. I couldn’t be happier with my Chevy Volt (other than it’s too low to the ground for my body to comfortably climb in and out of) and many would say it’s the best PHEV - or at least was for its time. The Bolt consistently ranks very highly among EVs. I absolutely disagree that American car manufacturers are dropping the ball here. They are trying to figure out how to make and sell these cars to consumers who have made clear they want trucks and SUVs with the cargo/passenger capacity for trips.
Cost of labor is higher here, but not nearly enough to explain this price difference (and is anyone suggesting we shouldn’t pay autoworkers good wages?). Something doesn’t add up. Corners have to have been cut to create an EV half the cost of everyone else. I welcome fair competition to help drive prices down, but I’ll wait to see what happens. I’m super skeptical of any miracle solution, particularly when the verbiage about it has such an emotionally charged tone.
Chevy Volt … Bolt consistently ranks very highly among EVs. I absolutely disagree that American car manufacturers are dropping the ball here.
They’re not dropping the ball, they’re throwing it away. You’re giving two examples that have been our best hope for affordable EVs but are no longer made
Well, that’s a fair point. The Bolt is being replaced by an EV version of the Equinox, which I like better for the crossover size factor, but I suspect it won’t hit quite the same as the Bolt.
No replacement for the Volt, though. Which kinda sucks, though it wasn’t a cheap market car by any means. I think mine was 35k new and I didn’t spring for the fancy version.
Do you own a cell phone though? Those things can collect way more data than any car ever could.
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I’ve resolved to find and cut the antenna(s) when I have to buy a new car for this reason.
Just want to remind people that BYD has been in the American market since 2011. They’ve been involved with building industrial vehicles like trucks and buses.
I’ve seen enough QA issues with most of the Chinese EVs I would highly doubt any of them make it to the USA for consumer sale at any scale. Some have overheating issues, panels fall off, cheap seat belts, uncomfortable seats, sizing issues (too small for larger Americans), goofy AC vents that blow weak when pointed downward and high when pointed at your face but don’t allow for other adjustments.
BYD has been making buses and work trucks for the US market for years. I’ve only had a ride on a few BYD buses, but they seem to be quality.
Good to hear they’ve had some success in the US, but I do worry about the quality of their consumer products. Too many companies can’t translate success in onr section of a market into another section.
I really want a small EV.
I mean at those prices you don’t expect too much quality. Unlike Teslas that are poorly built but priced like the aren’t
I agree with many of these points, but have two thoughts here. First, the same was true of many items being produced in China in the past, but quality control got better and honestly most of the products you can buy for a reasonable price are partly or wholly made in China. Second, Tesla is a good example of a US based company with many of the same issues. Loose panels, door handles that fall off, accelerators that get stuck, and so on. Bad engineering is not only available in Mandarin.
I hope they can produce a good quality electric car and help accelerate the transition.
1000% this.
This article is fuckin ridiculous. There hasn’t been a Chinese auto manufacturer that is even CLOSE.
