- cross-posted to:
- climate@slrpnk.net
- cross-posted to:
- climate@slrpnk.net
Across America, clean energy plants are being banned faster than they’re being built::The clock is ticking toward a deadline to meet renewable-energy standards. But USA TODAY’s analysis finds local governments banning wind turbines, solar plants.
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“But a wave of disinformation in 2023, falsely claiming offshore wind projects killed whales, resulted in a sharp decline in public support for offshore wind.”
I can’t believe people fell for that.
In Mexico we had a dumb politician who said windmills stole the air of the people.
Mexico by way of south korea?
People believe weird shit everywhere, unfortunately
Edit: couldn’t get Wikipedia to give me the urban legend definition and not the metal band. Changed the link
Hero. Right here.
That is a really good find
All that air pushing the blades has to come from somewhere!
The current president of Mexico banned almost all.the eco technologies because od absurd ramblings like thst one of that politician, but his maim goal was to steal the money that the government invested in those.
Korean fan death?
My dad was absolutely one of them… He mentioned it out of nowhere and I couldn’t refute it because I had never encountered that lunacy before then…
He already wanted to hate wind then and this is just his justification. I once encountered someone telling me that wind turbines cause global warming. I told them the only part generating heat was the copper in the motor and that’s the same in every power generation. Turn out Faux News misrepresented a study that showed the turbulence caused by wind turbines brought warm air to the ground level.
Damn that would be an issue if we built them in urban areas which we don’t.
Except physically speaking, that warmth from the motor is still just from the energy the wind has… energy that would get transformed to heat from friction eventually anyway. It’s just that this way we get useful work for our own purposes in the form of electricity.
Regardless of the source of rotation, all other aspects are the same as far as heat generation goes. That was the point I tried getting across to the people who were insisting to me that wind turbines cause climate change. Hydro, diesel engine, NG fire or nuclear driven steam turbines, wind turbine. They’re all just spinning copper coils. Any heat from those would be the same.
The copper coils also had nothing to do with the heat in question anyway. The study was just showing turbulence could bring warm air to ground level. Honestly, sounds like wind turbines should be setup above frost sensitive crops like fruit trees. One bad frost during the tree’s bloom could ruin a whole year’s harvest.
You absolutely can refute it. Just ask for proof.
They’ll point to articles on Breitbart and other sites that are even less trustworthy.
I hate that. They’ll just say something like “well how can you support solar panels when it kills the rare ballet fork bird?! Or when the solar panels kill the nearby trees!? Or when the toxic chemicals leak into the streams and the kill the river!?”
It’s just like this slew of crap and you can’t possibly know it’s totally crap when you start talking to them. Then you go back research it and it turns out it’s from some (typically CCP or Russian financially backed) fake news website “pRoMOTinG fReeDoM aNd tHe AMeRicAn wAY.”
Then they just don’t want to hear about how freedom4everything.scam is a scam and think you’re being political and close minded for insisting they check these things out and look for collaborating sources with more credibility, NYTimes, Washington Post, WSJ, etc.
Then that turns into a whole “but the NYTimes is too liberal to ever mention mutant fish caused by renewable energy” … and it just goes on and on…
I don’t know how well it works in the end, but when I see that kind of stuff from people I usually say “I’m not going to tell you who to listen to, but try not to use sources that are named anything politically charged. No “patriot.grift” site no “RealMuricanDaily.bs” no “StarSpangledReport.asshat” anyone who chooses a name like that is broadcasting a political bias.”
I can. There is a reason why only two new nuclear reactors have been built since 1972 in the nation that figured the technology out first. It takes almost nothing to scare people out of being smart
I mean… it’s quite different for nuclear there has been some big international incidents and it’s something that hurted people directly plus invisible stuff that can kill you usually is terrifying. Knowing that a similar technology is used for bombs that cause terrible destruction didn’t help either.
So even though it can be done with no risks… Is quite understandable people being afraid of it.
Like the whale thing is nothing in comparison.
Everything you just said can apply to coal. There are monthly incidents involving coal mines and plants. It puts out plenty of stuff that is invisible and can kill you. Plus hydrocarbons are the lifeblood of all warfare almost as much as gunpowder.
Go spend a few years of your life building scrubbers for coal and low grade diesel then get back to me about how nuclear is dangerous. Bunch of rednecks with screwdrivers and drunk ex-Sovits with wrenchs. I have seen them do some scary stuff. At least with a nuclear plant you can’t wipe your butt without ten PEs signing off on it.
The total death toll and the number of people suffering health issues (past and present) due to coal are orders of magnitude larger than those due to nuclear power (not to even mention the damage to the environment!). The problem is that people respond more to one-time big disasters than to numbers over time. Something like Chornobyl is terrifying and a big deal, so people remember it. They don’t remember every Tom, Dick and Harry that’s died over the years due to black lung or accidents or other stuff from coal.
You can even see this attitude in other ways too. It seems like a lot of Americans are still suffering mass trauma from 9/11 and accept the most horrific Patriot Act-type shit because of it. But in the end, it was less than 3000 people who died in the attack (and don’t get me wrong, it was terrible!), but waaaaaaay more people die (and have died) from lack of (access to) healthcare, and it seems that still barely anyone is actually trying to fix that. Or a mass shooting that kills 11 people, that’s a big deal, right? But the fact that over a million Americans died due to Covid didn’t really register as a disaster for a lot of people.
Nuclear power is such a no-brainer to me, but it sounds ‘scary’ and lots of people don’t understand it, which makes it even more scary. Plus, of course the fossil fuel industry propaganda and lobbying, and the memory of people who know other people who used to work in coal towns and had pretty decent lives. Or the “what about nuclear waste!”-crap that always comes up. Yes, nuclear waste is a thing, but let’s put it next to all the damaging crap that coal mines produce, accumulated. It’s way worse.
Anyway. It’s hard to fight all that, even when rationally, statistically, nuclear power should be a no-brainer. Edit: and there is no political will either, it seems. Whether it’s because they love their fossil fuel bribes or because they’re too scared to lose some voters… they’ll never do good things just to do good.
Edit: just to be clear, it’s definitely not a USA-exclusive problem. I currently live in Germany and their weird relationship to nuclear power is also batshit. All based on fear and bullshit.
Stastics vs tragedies There is also something to bite sized evils vs large unbearable ones
The people falling for that are the ones trying to detox off of oxygen addiction.
Wind mills do kill birds, but all you have to do to prevent it is paint one of the turbines black so it doesn’t blend into the sky when it is turning, allowing birds to avoid them. But unfortunately thay costs money and smooth brain fossil fuel stans would rather just poison the wind rather than harness it.
wind energy is going to continue increasing exponentially for a while, it would be wise to mitigate the death of more birds. I also support exterminating stray cats and putting harsh fines on folks who keep outside cats as well. Birds need protecting and we are woefully failing as a species to do so.Non-native lawns are a huge reason for the native bird decline across NA in the last 3 decades.
Non-native cats are multiple orders of magnitudes worse for bird populations. Non-native lawns mainly effect polinators.
Meh with non-native cats over here gone the native cats would do the killing. The reason we spay strays is more to protect wildcats against c competition, they’re not interbreeding much but long-term it’s a concern.
Obligatory picture and another yes they do look quite like domestic ones. Behaviour is quite different, though, particularly they’re impossible to domesticate. Behaviour you’d consider severely fucked-up cat psychology in African wildcats (which are the ones who domesticated themselves by moving into grain storages) are par for the course for European wildcats. They’re not asocial, they’re not broken, they just hate humans.
I see your data clearly presented and submit my anecdotal. Clearly I win and we should burn more coal.
Gotta love that the same guy who keeps complaining about windmills killing birds is the guy who also got famous building a giant glass tower in New York.
Why would anything kill fields for birds though? Let them do their own damn work.
The currently existing design of wind turbines is incredibly stupid anyway, I have no idea how we landed on that design. It’s one of the least effective designs possible for it’s use case. We should be using spiral turbines.
The current three blade design of utility-scale turbines achieves about 80% of the Betz limit, are relatively efficient in materials for their output, and the blades’ pitch can be adjusted to control their speed in varying conditions (eg. during storms). I wouldn’t call their design “incredibly stupid”.
That looks like it would be hard to manufacture and transport at the size requirements that traditional blades are made. It’s already a massive pita to transport the traditional blades. I’m sure we’ll figure it out eventually, but that’s probably the current reasoning.
Yooo that looks sick as hell! Why aren’t we using that?
Can you imagine how heavy one of those would be at full scale?
That’s too futuristic and only belongs on other planets like mars
With the size they are, I wouldn’t just paint them black. It might throw off the balance. They should be shipping then black from factory.
Each time there’s a new climate change fueled war, I’ll remember who was spouting lies during this pivotal period.
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OMG this is the dumbest thing… In NY the town of Florida banned a windmill on waste property, then in racquet lake where they get all sorts of outages they stopped a battery from being installed because they might catch fire. These were BYD LFP batteries, and they were referencing LG chem batteries catching fire in Arizona as the reason.
Upstate NY is just the cold weather version of the Bible Belt.
I live in wny the windmills fucking suck. You spend your life savings buying property in the country with gorgeous scenery and views and bam farmer under the thumb of the state gets conned into putting windmills up and your peaceful piece of property is now staring at some dystopian looking shithole landacape. I dont do the conspiracy theories but i totally get voting to not allow windmills in an area you own property in.
These things look beautiful though
Right? I can get “it’s not the view I signed up for” or something, but my dude you do not own the view. You want to own the view it costs a hell of a lot more
I saw them in the little falls area they look fine to me. I’m sure they are noticed when people have lower energy bills.
All you have to do is sell power cheaper then them from a source that is also clean or decrease the usage and bam less demand for windmills
Are you kidding me? I opened the article in order to find reasons for banning but after like reading 10min, I gave up, it is such a repetitive article with so many useless words… Has someone a TLDR?
Former President Donald Trump often denigrates wind and solar power in his speeches. In December in New Hampshire, he said, falsely, that wind farms only last 10 years, that they kill “all the birds,” that solar energy isn’t powerful enough to run factories and that wind is 42 times more expensive than natural gas.
(…)
“It’s going to change our lifestyle and the landscape and everything around here,” he said.
(…)
The opposition sometimes leads to surprising arguments about property rights, in which some landowners invoke concepts like a claim to a “viewshed” – views they want free of wind turbines or solar panels. These opponents clash with others who champion a different view of private property rights, saying landowners should be free to build what they want.
I see, the oil and coal lobby, who would have thought
Cozied on up with Nimbys.
Nimbys are truly Karen’s in their final form.
Oil companies
Awful, we really need some kind of federal fast track for these sorts of badly needed projects that cuts through the NIMBY bullshit.
What’s this from?
Good Omens
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I mean, this isn’t so bad. While the rest of the world lives in a solar punk future, the US could be like some secluded cyberpunk bubble that would give many scholars in the future stuff to write their thesis about, while also providing a good source of memes for the rest of enlightened humanity.
Here in NZ
I don’t want share a land border with that cyberpunk bubble, thank you very much.
Fix your shit, America.
They’d be walled in to prevent their filth from physically reaching any of the other countries
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I live in one of the most progressive cities in the US and have had the same issue here. We have no driveway and park on the street but regulations say we cant use the grass strip (the area between the srreet and the curb) to install a charging station for an ev in front of our house. For 5 years we tried to get permission to do this without luck and have given up on ever getting an EV. I dont get how there is any hope for electric vehicles if there arent any working solutions for the millions of people in the United States who dont have a driveway or garage.
Its time to grab a beer kick back and watch as the planet is destroyed by slow moving bearacratic regulation.
I gave up on humanity decades ago. I’ve got a bottle of SoCo set aside for the end of the world.
We have windmills all over western Norway, and seriously, fuck that shit. It completely destroys the best part of our nature. Cannot advice against it enough
…but like, so do fossil fuels, you just don’t immediately see it. It’s lead to so much contamination and death you’ll never directly witness and is actively destroying everything vs “oh no, that pretty hill!”.
everything vs “oh no, that pretty hill!”.
Well it does kill birds. There are other renewable energy sources far preferable over wind energy, considering wind energy is very unreliable, only working when it’s windy. And make that pretty hill into basically every hill. And “oh no that pretty hill” will be ruined for all eternity, including future generations. And while we’re talking about it, how about the special roads that needs to be made to move the windmill blades up in the first place. And the windmill blades will have to be made somehow. Guess what, a lot of tech that goes into windmills are not renewable. People resist wind energy for a reason. Maybe you could just use less electricity instead of destroying every bit of nature left on the earth? Personally I’m in favour of atomic energy
I can add that night time windmill blinking (so planes and birds don’t crash into them) is really obnoxious and annoying. Even worse than seeing then in day time.
Well it does kill birds.
No they don’t, birds neither like the noise or turbulence so they avoid them. Skyscrapers kill birds. This is decades-old and disproven FUD I hope you at least get money for peddling fossil fuel lobby talking points.
And “oh no that pretty hill” will be ruined for all eternity, including future generations.
Oh no! The Hill!
What about the fucking rest of nature and the planet. Is that hill even high enough to still be above water in 100 years. Is it going to get eroded away by massive rainfall.
Oh no! The Hill! What about the fucking rest of nature and the planet. Is that hill even high enough to still be above water in 100 years. Is it going to get eroded away by massive rainfall.
Of course a German, from the energy stealing country Germany want Norway to produce even more energy, destroying our nature in the process. Try having every single mountain top, either having windmills, or windmills in the view. We already produce more than enough energy for ourselves. Even more energy can be produced by improving our hydro power stations. But somehow polticians insist on building windmills everywhere, and exporting it all to Germany. I suggest not being overly dependent on energy imports, and actually produce energy yourselves instead of decomissioning all of your nuclear energy plants. Be my guest, destroy all of your nature in the process, if that’s how you want to do it.
As per dead birds: 0-60 dead birds per windmill per year (Norwegian source : https://www.nve.no/energi/energisystem/vindkraft/kunnskapsgrunnlag-om-virkninger-av-vindkraft-paa-land/fugl/)
We already produce more than enough energy for ourselves.
My state is also producing more than enough for ourselves. Being just as flat as Denmark (and bordering it) we send you tons of that energy to pump into hydrostorage to then export again. It’s practially all windpower.
As to imports: if you don’t want to send us energy we’ll have to stop sending you steel and chemical products. Also Germany is a net exporter of electricity, I don’t like it either much of it is coal. Notable importer: France, with all their nuclear plants they have to shut down in the summer to not turn their rivers into bouillabaisse.
dead birds
Literally just commenting to say I fucking love that graphic lol
considering wind energy is very unreliable, only working when it’s windy.
Saying “no” isn’t the solution to this. Solar and wind work together to cover each other’s flaws. The wind is often blowing when the sun isn’t shining, and vis-à-vis.
At the next level, you can use historical weather data to calculate how much things will be in a lull where neither are producing. That gives you an idea of how much storage you need to cover it. The details depend on the region, but this is often much, much less than detractors are letting on.
Coal and nat gas also kill birds. Well basically any system that exhausts huge steam vats into the air just absolutely blast some birds.
Good thing we’re already fully self sufficient on renewable energy in Norway then. So we don’t even have to actually have to build these windmills. Nature has value too. Nature disappearing is actually a huge problem in Norway.
Are you totally self sufficient? I thought a lot of the social programs are supported by the sales of natural gas.
You’re wrong. All the revenue is sent to our sovereign wealth fund, which is mostly just left alone.
Plus stopping our gas exports will just make everything worse, since Germany is addicted to natural gas and lignite coal.
Checks out since your country’s economy is founded on oil but you all deny it
It’s funded on hydropower. We were well of when we found oil. The oil money is mostly just reinvested in a sovereign wealth fund. The oil money doesn’t hurt though.
