Can someone please calmly explain how blocking a freeway across an ocean and a country on a different continent, is supposed to have any effect on a political issue in the middle east?
Because the US has a massive hand in that political issue in the middle east.
Also the even more direct fact that Israel exists primarily to provide the US control over middle eastern oil. It’s an air base and port and provides air space through which to it can attack countries in the region. The constant war carried out by Israel against neighbors and within it’s own border destabalizes the region, making it easier to maintain US supported authoritarians.
Making life harder for people in cars is actually direct action against one of the root causes of the genocide. If you are in a car, you are complicit in genocide.
Not all anti-Israel commentary is antisemitic…but this sure as hell is.
Israel exists primarily to provide the US control over oil in the region? That’s its purpose for existing?
That argument shows complete disregard for the millions of Jews living there and the sequence of events that led to the need for a sovereign Jewish state in the first place
This seems like conflating purpose and reason, or current function.
Israel acts independently and has it’s own interests, which sometimes conflict with US interests, but often align. The US continues to prop Israel up because it needs access to the region.
Saying that the British and later Americans used Jews in the same way they used Scotch Irish or other marginalized people to colonize land they wanted to control by proxy is just a statement about history. It would be anti-semetic to suggest that Israel is somehow able to manipulate the US in to funding and arming it, rather than the relationship going primarily the opposite direction… As the US does with it’s many other proxies all over the world. It would be anti-semetic to suggest that Israel is somehow unique in being funded and supported by the US without being part of US global strategy. If we can accept that Israel is just another US proxy, then we ask, “given the local geopolitics, would Israel exist without US support?”
The history of persecution that allowed the British and Americans to exploit Jews to colonize Palestine isn’t what my post was about. I can understand the confusion. I assume it was in good faith.
You’re straight up being antisemitic, equating an apartheid state to jewishness
…he said to the Jew. Op literally said the reason for Israel’s existence is oil interests.
Israel IS an apartheid state. Fuck the Israeli government and fuck Netenyahu especially. But that doesn’t make OP right
Jewish people can be antisemitic, lmao.
Equating zionism with jewishness is antisemitic
Some of my family didn’t survive a death camp to be used as a cudgel for a settler colonial project.
That argument shows complete disregard for the millions of Jews living there and the sequence of events that led to the need for a sovereign Jewish state in the first place
This is using the holocaust to justify Israel, it is ahistorical and disgusting.
The reason for the creation of the Israeli state where it is was absolutely a political decision by the big Western powers (just like the repeated backing of Arab religious fanaticism over secular nationalism, btw). If the primary concern was providing a home for displaced Jews, land in Germany or the US would have made much more sense.
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The US has no shortage of air bases in the Middle East. I find it difficult to believe Israel is of particular importance for that reason.
The idea is of course to bring attention to the fact that the US is funding Israel and giving them weapons. We also have some pull in the world and if we wanted to make it a thing, we could no doubt get all support for them in the area put on hold until they turned their shit around and stopped shooting/bombing anyone not in an IDF uniform.
Some pull? The US is funding this war. Israel is getting so much in free money from your taxes it should make you sick to your stomach
I said some pull because the UK and others would still need to get on board to do a blanket “cease-fire if you want aid” type statement. The US alone would only be a bump for them, but since they already have weapons they have bought from us for years, and aid coming in from other countries it would mean they wouldn’t need to pay any attention right away.
Choking out the sugar daddy money would be a massive swing for their budget that they could not afford. We give them a disgustingly disproportionate amount of aid money.
We also have some pull in the world
Which is currently being used to defend Israel. Can’t forget that part.
A lot of what these protests are trying to do is make it harder to ignore the reality of what is happening.
Now I agree these kind of protests don’t gain support. But they’re not trying to win support: they’re trying to make people aware of the problem as one that shosuldn’t be ignored.
The gamble is the cause is important enough and sympathetic enough that forcing people to be aware of it might get people towards political action. Even if it is just calling their representstive and going ‘wtf’.
For Americans every dollar we earn at work and every cent of tax we pay is a contributing factor in the conflict. But many are aware and think that is just fine. That is my personal concern with this protest: a lot of Americans are completely stoked about it and protesting just makes them shrug and go ‘purple hairs lol’.
Yes, they’re banking on the “no such thing as bad publicity” mantra and willing to risk jail time for that.
I think there are better ways of doing that, and I also don’t think this is the right time to do it. We’re not directly involved in that war, we’re merely selling weapons and keeping ships in the area to discourage the conflict from spreading. This isn’t like Vietnam where we’re literally the ones doing the killing.
I agree that Palestine should be free, but not with Hamas in control. Hamas is a terrorist org that networks with other terrorist orgs, and if they gain independence, they’ll continue terrorism. Fatah isn’t much better, but they seem quite a bit more reasonable and perhaps should be courted in negotiations for an independent Israel. Regardless, any independent Palestine must recognize Israel’s legitimacy or it’s not going to happen.
One could argue that blocking a freeway causes some negative economic impact. There are a number of US defense contractors who are profiting nicely from Israel’s recent military mobilization. This could be a message to the military industrial complex that “we the people” can grind things to a halt if we need to.
Personally I’m not a fan of blocking freeways as a form of protest, there’s just too much risk of affecting something time sensitive like an ambulance, organ transplant, etc. But I also empathize with the protestors, they probably feel strongly (as do I) that the violence needs to stop, and they feel helpless. There’s a lot of drive to make things right, and no real way to do that other than making a statement.
I see this argument every time a protest is held.
Can you name the number of times an emergency vehicle like an ambulance was blocked with a negative consequence from a blockade protest and divide it by the number of times such protests have occurred in the US?
I want to know what your threshold of “too much risk” means in terms of empirical data.
I most certainly cannot. I wouldn’t even know where to start to find that data. I’m not sure it’s ever happened, nor if it’s something that would even be tracked/documented in any meaningful way. Tons of random things can delay something like an ambulance - car crashes, inclement weather, rush hour, etc.
My point was not that freeway-blocking protests are inherently bad, just that my feelings of the potential for negative impacts to innocent “bystanders” stress me out. I am not a fan of freeway-blocking protests for the same reason that I am not a fan of icy roads.
Now, is a freeway-blocking protest effective? Depends on how you quantify effectiveness. Was awareness raised? (Probably.) Were the lives of Gaza’s residents improved? (Probably not.) Would some other protest format have been more effective? (Probably not.) Are any protests really that effective when our government answers to billionaires instead of citizens? (Doubt it.) Does that mean we should lay down and accept mistreatment of our fellow humans? (Fuck no!)
So in theory you would have a much bigger problem with people who tailgate, exceed the speed limit, and fail to signal when changing lanes, or who fail to admit in people on lane merges, right? I’m pretty sure that, just at a raw numbers level, these kinds of things (along with the more obvious ones like texting while driving) cause far more traffic delays than the occasional protest.
Do you have a history of complaining about traffic violations in general, or is it just for people protesting for social justice?
Look, I know I’m slamming you and you don’t deserve it. I know it sounds like I’m attacking you personally, and that is not my intent. What I’m trying to draw attention to, however clumsily, is that this sort of narrative gets passed around very easily, even among the most well meaning of people. It’s regularly mentioned in the right wing media, and even in centrist media like the NYT. I’ve just worked on propaganda models for too long to not occasionally say something.
So in theory you would have a much bigger problem with people who tailgate, exceed the speed limit, and fail to signal when changing lanes, or who fail to admit in people on lane merges, right?
Fuck yes I do. (Can I say “fuck” in here?) Driving is dangerous, and people don’t take it seriously enough. Forget traffic delays, people die on the roads every single day. Heck, I wonder if this freeway shutdown could’ve actually saved lives.
Do you have a history of complaining about traffic violations in general, or is it just for people protesting for social justice?
The former, in multitudes. My partner told me that I’m not allowed to comment on other peoples’ driving around her anymore because it got annoying. I also have a history of complaining about how car-centric our society is in general, but that’s a topic for another day.
I know it sounds like I’m attacking you personally, and that is not my intent.
Thank you for that last paragraph, because I was about to throw myself a pity party lol. I think you raise an excellent point, and this type of “what-if-ism” is dangerous because it’s a distraction from the bigger issue at best, and demonizes social justice movements at worst. Definitely something I’ll keep in mind in the future.
Yeah, I think the fact that highway blockages are viewed so divisively only points to how effective they are. They have economic impact and are hugely visible – I think they’re one of the most effective non-violent direct action tactics available, though the participants should prepare to have the book thrown at them.
I think they should be treated as harshly as police who harass and assault people - there should be an internal investigation by other protestors, and if suspicion is found they should be forced to go on leave from work with full pay until the investigation concludes they were only doing what they were trained to do.
Oh, and then compare that to regular traffic!
So your numerator is 1. What’s your denominator? Let’s call it the number of street blocking protests in the last ten years.
In addition, the article doesn’t mention any ill effects coming from the delay, so we should probably be using a weighted function for this to see when it had an actual medical consequence.
FWIW, this is one of the most common forms of protest in Seattle since BLM. It’s not necessarily newsworthy to us locals! And yes, to confirm, most people in the city get pretty annoyed with protestors when it happens. A lot of people late to work, missing medical appointments, stranded with kids in the car, etc.
Last time I was held up by these people, I was on my way to try to pick up my dog’s cancer medication. So no, I don’t sympathize with them.
My dog’s cancer medication is more important than the wars in the Middle East, too
“Only one thing can ever matter at a time”.
Will that’s the point of protests to remind people like you that there are a genocide happening and you government is supporting it.
It’s all performative. Everybody knows what’s happening there. They didn’t bring attention to the genocide; they brought attention to themselves.
That’s the point of protests to remind politician that if they dont hear the demands they will lose votes.
Hey guys, another local checking in to say protest is cool and effective protest is even cooler!
You might even say that people being late to work is exactly the economic impact that such a protest is designed to create.
damn i should work in Seattle so i can use this as an excuse to get out of work
People who work on ambulances love when protestors close roads like this.
Ambulances have dispatch to warn and redirect them, and sirens to force their way down the shoulder to an exit. Effective protest has to have an effect.
Blocking roads is not an effective protest, and rerouting ambulances is not as simple as you make it sound. I used to work dispatch, I would know.
“blocking roads is not an effective protest” - source unknown
Eh we did it back protesting invading Iraq. Didn’t do anything then.
But Seattle wasn’t Amazon back then.
No, we didn’t stop the war. I marched with 300k people in Washington (a lot of veterans) and we still didn’t stop the war. But I think the widespread and global protests of the Iraq war made it clear that the US was going to wage war despite its unpopularity, evidence, allies backing out, etc. A similar thing appears to be happening now with the backlash to Israel’s Hamas response.
Here’s a good column about what those protests writ large “accomplished.” https://www.commondreams.org/opinion/20-year-anniversary-of-iraq-war-protests
I have a private theory that the establishment likes to put ideas in people’s heads about methods of protest that are guaranteed to turn people against the cause that’s being advocated for. For some reason, it works, and protest groups adopt these methods.
Blocking highways is one of these; throwing paint on famous art is another.
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If you’re so caught up in “this is what I feel like doing, I don’t care if it’s counterproductive,” to the point where you’re okay with turning people against these critical missions, then you’re a piece of shit.
Every big successful movement like civil rights had to consider whether the tactics they planned to use were going to be effective. There was an earlier candidate who could have been Rosa Parks, but she was a pregnant teenager, and civil rights leaders at the time didn’t make her the figurehead because they didn’t want the racist white men of the time to have any easy reason to dismiss her or beat up her character.
Does it make the general public at the time “pieces of shit” that they wouldn’t fight for the rights of a pregnant teenager just as much as a married black woman coming home after working all day? Yeah, kind of. Is that still something you should strategize about if you want to achieve civil rights? Yes. A thousand percent yes. Which is more important; being stubborn, or winning?
(And, as a side note, I think most people who support Israel over the Palestinians don’t “support genocide” in their own minds; they aren’t aware of Israel’s crimes in near as much detail as you and I are. I think if you asked them factually about how many Palestinians versus Israelis have died you’d get a real real wrong answer. If you try to fix that situation by making them late for work and screaming in their face about how they support genocide, get ready for the American public to keep supporting genocide for a long, long time to come.)
Well fucking said.
Blocking a highway is non-violent direct action that causes immediate economic impact and makes headlines. I can’t think of many better ways to protest. You’re talking like they took an elementary school class hostage.
This is reductive, come the fuck on.
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The art was behind glass, which the protestors knew beforehand, which was why they chose to throw paint on it.
It was completely undamaged, and only children and idiots think its a reason to not support a cause. Which of those 2 are you?
The museums don’t agree with you.
What percentage of people in the world do you think are going to be positively impacted (in their thinking) by this action, versus negatively impacted? If you don’t care about that answer, then you are hurting the cause you claim to support.
Throw insults around all you want; you have that right, if you think that that’s a more important thing to do than educating people effectively about climate change.
The life of a painting is worth less than my life, bud
If you are hand wringing about a painting because someone tried to use it to stop the deaths of real himan beings, you dont give a shit about climate change. Shove that made up concern back up your ass where it came from.
Saying “we are dying, and we will threaten to damage non living artwork until you stop the thing killing us” is not hurting any cause in the eyes of rational thinking human beings.
You will not get me to care more about a painting that wasnt damaged just because the rich losers who own the museum dont like the negative press, and you cannot make me care more about warhols work more than human lives. (You also cant get me to care about andy the asshole anyway, but thats an opinion shared by any artist who studied him)
Seriously. You need therapy if this damaged “”“the cause”“” in your eyes. Because youre likely a sociopath.
I’m not saying this necessarily because I give a shit about the paintings. I’m saying this because I care about climate change, and building awareness and support for changing the policies that are destroying the planet is important to me. Actions that discredit the environmental movement and damage activists’ ability to get this vital work done are, to me, bad things.
The people using these tactics aren’t “stopping the deaths of real human beings.” Their actions are prolonging the policies that kill real human beings. You can curse at me all you want, or call me sociopath whatever; I’m still going to think that’s a bad thing.
Nothing done has prolonged the current policies. You are either arguing in bad faith or from a position of complete ignorance of human history.
If you were turned away from fixing climate change because of this nonviolent protest, you were 1) never actually on the side of humanity, and 2) do not understand what protests are or have ever been.
We used to kill leaders who put our lives and our neighbors lives in jeapordy. They threaten us, and we kill them and replace them.
These protests are progressive steps towards that old method, to remind them that we used to kill them for poor leadership, we could choose to do so again, and that we will start by destroying their property and financial investments first. That if they wish to live, and if they wish to keep their wealth, they need to start leading properly and stop putting our lives in jeapordy.
The museum curators spoke out against this not because it harmed any movement, but because it risked costing them money. Thats it. Its a threat to cost them money if they dont listen to us.
This isnt about swaying your bigoted dipshit of a grandma. Its about reminding turtle boy mitch and his country club friends in congress that we will burn down his house if he keeps ignoring this issue. Because we have exhausted the non violent options, and are approaching the point of needing to use violence.
So, no, I dont give a shit that a painting wasnt even actually damaged. Because pretending to damage the painting is to remind those in power that the next time, we will not throw soup. We will throw bottles of kerosene with lit rags poking out.
And I am speaking as an ecologist. We have tried the advocacy. The people in power do not care. They need to be made to care.
If you were turned away from fixing climate change because of this nonviolent protest, you were 1) never actually on the side of humanity, and 2) do not understand what protests are or have ever been.
I’m not saying I was turned away from fixing climate change because of this protest. I wasn’t. Anyone who knows as much about it as you or I do would have to be insane to support saving humanity, or not, based on some trivial detail like this. I am saying, though, that a lot of people – the vast majority – are in your group #2, and yes, will be turned away by these actions.
These protests are progressive steps towards that old method, to remind them that we used to kill them for poor leadership, we could choose to do so again, and that we will start by destroying their property and financial investments first. That if they wish to live, and if they wish to keep their wealth, they need to start leading properly and stop putting our lives in jeapordy.
This isnt about swaying your bigoted dipshit of a grandma. Its about reminding turtle boy mitch and his country club friends in congress that we will burn down his house if he keeps ignoring this issue. Because we have exhausted the non violent options, and are approaching the point of needing to use violence.
My grandma marched with Martin Luther King, more than once, at a time when his approval rating with other white southerners like her was pretty damn low.
If we were talking about doing something that would directly impact Mitch McConnell and the other people who are engineering this crisis, that sounds great. I don’t agree with the violence, and we can talk about that, but the main point – directly impacting the people who are responsible – sounds to me like a great idea.
Directly impacting the museum curators and the people in Seattle driving to work doesn’t sound like that. It sounds like they’re just easier targets for your (very justified) anger and desperation to solve the problem. I think it’s highly unlikely that threatening any number of Andy Warhol paintings or closing any number of highways will ever bring the criminals in congress to their knees so that they beg for an end to it all if they agree to start pursuing sensible policies. I think it’s far more likely that when they see stuff like this they rub their hands together with glee and think about how they can use this to portray climate protestors in the news, and extend by another irreplaceable year the length of time they can continue their evil work, unimpeded.
THE VAST MAJORITY DO. NOT. MATTER.
Read that sentence over and over until it sticks in your head. These protests Are. Not. For. Your. Racist. Grandmother. They are direct threats to the politicians who know better. They are direct threats to the people in power who are knowingly letting the climate worsen for profit. They are direct threats that say if they continue putting our lives at risk for money, we will burn down everything they own into ash that if we die we do so without making them richer.
You are gently tonguing and sucking turtle miches fucking balls with this bullshit rhetoric. You are getting him off in the worst way, because he knows climate change is real and does not care because IT MAKES HIM MONEY. He is in love with the fact that you think threatening him and his coffers “”“hUrTs ThE MoVeMeNt”“” because you are stopping anyone from actually holding him accountable.
Your racist grandmas opinion doesnt matter!! She isnt burning coal!! She isnt razing the amazon for cattle farming!! The people who store their expensive art in museums do!! These protests are not for your dumb as rocks grandma!! No one gives a shit what she thinks!!
These protests are reminders that we can do things that cost the people in power lots of money, because costing them money or killing them is all they care about, and we are polite enough to start with their wealth before their lives. End of story. Thats it.
Threatening art threatens their investments. Halting traffick shuts down their factories and offices. Its not for you! Its to cost them money, and then remind them that we will do worse, for longer, next time. Anything that would make their stock wobble makes them tremble. Anything that shuts down a city fucks every business in that city, and all those angry business owners turn to the politicians and cry “fix it daddy! Or Ill stop paying you under the table!”
THIS. ISNT. ABOUT. YOU. Its about hurting, directly, the people who cause these problems, in ways they cannot stop you from doing without killing you for it.
People just abandoned their cars on the highway and walked away. They knew it was going to take all day and they had places to be. :P
Some people were confused and thought it was a Syrian protest too, not sure the message got through, haha.
In a society where a huge portion of us are on the cusp of homelessness any threat to your livelihood seems like a threat on your life. I dont agree with it but I totally understand why some people run these protesters over. Last time I heard about one of these they were blocking a mother trying to get her kid to an ER in London. There is an older video of a guy begging them to move so he doesn’t lose his job and go back to prison (part of his parole). Threatening peoples livelihoods to make them agree with your politics sounds a lot like terrorism and I absolutely hate these kinds of protests. They could at least leave one lane open so people are slowed and see your message still but they dont. Also how privileged are these people that they can do this and dont have to go work instead? Must be really nice to have enough that you dont have to worry about making rent this month or feeding your children
a society where a huge portion of us are on the cusp of homelessness any threat to your livelihood seems like a threat on your life
Land of the free…
Threatening peoples livelihood… sounds a lot like terrorism
It absolutely does.
I hope these protesters are jailed, because this nonsense is a violation of a whole host of social norms, and we have laws against it for good reason. I don’t think they would be charged with terrorism though unless they threaten to keep doing it to make a political point. But jail time should absolutely be on the table.
That said, I agree that Palestine should be independent. However, this stunt does not make me sympathetic to their cause, and I’ll ignore their entire platform and make my own decisions. If they protested in front of symbolic institutions (say, the capitol in Olympia, or at Seattle Center in front of the Space Needle), I would be more sympathetic. But screw these people and I hope they get what’s coming to them.
That said, this could be a good time to discuss mass transit. If transit were better in the region, this wouldn’t be nearly as impactful. Seattle doesn’t have many good options to get to and through the city, so moving as much traffic off it as possible has a ton of value.
don’t have to go to work
Paid and unpaid time off are a thing.
Welp, that oughta solve it. GG guys.
Totally fair that people are protesting to try and bring awareness so that hopefully our government can get on board with a ceasefire. In the end, both sides of Israelis and Palestinians both are in a losing war. From my perspective, I see countless innocent Palestinians who might not be directly linked to Hamas having to deal with the horrors of war and then the Israeli side really aren’t doing themselves justice with the whole thing of bombing hospitals. Even if Hamas may or may not have been using them as base of operations it’s still a war crime in my book.
This is the best summary I could come up with:
Additional demonstrators on a nearby overpass cheered in support of the blockade, which began around 1:15 p.m., the Seattle Times reported.
The state transportation department said on the social media platform X that traffic at one point was backed up more than 6 miles (9.7 kilometers), and the agency asked drivers to use alternate routes.
Stormy weather, including hail, moved through the area, and protesters left the freeway around 4:45 p.m., according to the Times.
Trooper Rick Johnson with the Washington State Patrol said via X that while people had abandoned the freeway, 12 vehicles were left behind.
Since then the Health Ministry in Hamas-run Gaza said Saturday a total of 22,722 Palestinians have been killed in Israel’s subsequent assault.
Still, international criticism of Israel’s conduct has grown because of the rising civilian death toll.
The original article contains 264 words, the summary contains 135 words. Saved 49%. I’m a bot and I’m open source!
