Note: It’s become clear to me that so far the vegan community on Lemmy (unlike Reddit) is lacking and overrun by non-vegans. So please only answer this if you’re actually vegan. I’m seeking a vegan perspective on this.
With that out of the way, is it speciesist to have a favourite animal? Many vegans consider themselves dog 🐕 lovers or cat 🐈 lovers (“ailurophiles”) first and foremost, aside from animal lovers (who actually respect animals hence their veganism) in general. Others, like Joey Carbstrong, say that pigs 🐖 are their favourite animal and always have been even since before they went vegan; maybe some saw the movie “Babe” and developed an affection for them, for example. It’s understandable. And others like cows 🐄 or chicks 🐥 or lambs 🐑 of course.
But as much as it might be a natural thing to gravitate to a certain species of animal, and “favouritise” them, is that still a form of speciesism? Of course if you’re not actually exploiting the animals that aren’t your favourite then it’s only a mental matter. But is it still wrong even just to view them differentially and prefer or hold more love for some species than others? Loving an individual than another makes sense. But would you love one race of people more than other? Do you say “Greek people are my favourite race” (as a non-Greek person, for sake of example)? If not, and if that would be considered racist, then why is it not speciesist to prefer one species over others, even if just mentally?
You can call it speciesism if you want, but fish are just not quite as cuddly as cats. So if you like a pet thats cuddly, you will prefer cats over fish and admitting that is in no way problematic.
Equating speciesism with racism also doesn’t make a lot of sense to me. Species do exist in nature, they are hard boundaries which animals can breed. Races on the other hand are a made-up concept with no biological basis, used to distinguish between similar-looking groups within a species.
A fish and a cat cannot breed, as they are different species. A british shorthair and a sphynx on the other hand can, as the distinction is entirely artificial.
Racism is the wrong belief that races, like species are a biological concept that can be found in nature.
Speciesism differs from that, because different species do exist. For any two individual animals you can always determine if they belong to the same species, which isn’t true for races. Animals of the same species do share traits, while there are differences between animals of different species.
In my opinion, pretending that every living being is the same would be way more problematic than what you call speciesism.
There is no need to believe that every species is the same in order to treat them all as well and as equally as possible.
The point is though, treating them all equally doesn’t make any sense because based on their species they have different needs.
Some animals enjoy the company of humans, others do not. Some radiate a calmness that is appealing to some, while others have an enthusiasm that more fits other personalities. So when getting a pet, why would you ignore all that?
Should I get a crocodile as a pet just to treat them all the same? I wouldn’t be doing that crocodile any favour, nor myself.
I guess its that old “equality vs equity” debate all over again.
Sorry I missed this comment.
Treating them all as equally well as possible makes sense, to be clear. That means not exploiting or harming any of them unnecessarily.
But treating them in exactly the same way doesn’t, since they have different needs and considerations as you point out. I agree with that.
And I’m not saying we should have all animals as pets, in fact due to the suffering it causes I would be wholly against the domestication of any more animals.
But we don’t have to treat animals in the same exact ways in order to respect and love them equally, even remotely or conceptually, even just based on the knowledge of them. It does feel strange to me to say “this species is my favourite species”. Is it speciesist? I’m not sure. It’s definitely not as bad as exploiting species selectively. But it might have some remnant of the views that led to those practices in the first place, potentially. I’m conflicted about it like another vegan said here whose comment was deleted.
I guess that I disagree with the notion that it’s bad to feel a certain way. We cannot control how we feel, only how we act.
And frankly its just unrealistic to ask people to love mosquitos just as much as they love cats.
I don’t need to love an animal to acknowledge their capability to suffer and to try to avoid causing any suffering to that animal.
I respect your endeavours I guess… regardless of your reasoning
Vegans compare racism and speciesism all the time. And non-vegans are the ones who usually reject the comparison. So, I ask, are you vegan?
All of your talking points are very much what non-vegans and anti-vegans say. So please just be honest and tell me if you’re vegan or not.
I’m a vegan, I don’t see why any of my points would have me support eating meat or other animal products. Check my comment history if you don’t believe me.
Okay I believe you (Not all vegans are the same after all. For example some people call themselves vegan when they’re really just eating a plant-based diet, still buy other animal products, or don’t have very strong views about animal rights. Not saying that’s the case here but when there are fewer vegans in a community, there can be more of that.)
But what confused me is that rather than just answering the question of whether it’s speciesist to prefer one animal species over another (even when respecting both of their rights by being vegan), you mostly went on a tangent about rejecting the comparison between racism and speciesism, even though vegans typically stress the fact that both forms of discrimination of individuals are comparable to each other, and it’s usually people who are against the vegan movement who try to argue they aren’t, and say things like “Considering humans and non-human animals as the same is problematic” (even though that’s a strawman since the vegan position acknowledges the differences between species but advocates for moral treatment of all species regardless).
I just don’t really understand. Do you for example think that it’s wrong to compare immoral treatment of humans to immoral treatment of non-human animals? Because that’s the vibe I’m getting.
I went on a “tangent” rather than answering your question, because I don’t agree with the underlying assumption.
You asked if it was speciesist to prefer one species over another. By definition it is, thats just what speciesism is defined as. I have an issue with the underlying assumption that speciesism is
a) bad
and
b) the same as racism
I could’ve just said: “yes, that is indeed speciesist”, but that wouldn’t have gotten my point across.
Your last paragraph hosently doesn’t have anything to do with anything I said. I don’t care about morals, but I believe one shouldn’t cause any more suffering than necessary, that goes for humans and animals.
You’re vegan, yet you don’t think speciesism is bad, and you don’t care about morals… right… 🤨
Here’s an idea: I am a vegan because it is my belief that suffering is bad. I don’t need to believe in speciesism and I don’t need to follow any moral code for that, it’s just the result of very simple ethical reasoning.
And what’s with this gatekeeping anyway? Am I not a vegan unless I say and believe exactly what other vegans do? Does deciding to be a vegan, rather than to blindly follow my societies moral code make me any less of a vegan than someone coming from a vegan culture?
Recognising that speciesism is an immoral form of discrimination comparable to other forms like racism is key to animal liberation. So I believe rejecting the comparison is contrary to what veganism actually stands for.
So vegans are complaining that they are overrun by non-vegans and carnivores are complaining they are overrun by non-carnivores.
And I thought Reddit was childish.
That seems reasonable. We want a vegan community of actual vegans to communicate about topics with. Likewise “carnivore” dieters (I wasn’t aware there was a presence of them on Lemmy) probably want actual carnivore dieters to talk to. I don’t see the problem with this. If I ask a question directed toward vegans and all I get is responses from non-vegans, it defeats the purpose of my question. Only vegans can truly understand where you’re coming from about certain things to do with vegan topics. Guessing you’re not vegan based on your phrasing.
Oh I just find it funny that y’all are going into each others communities and trolling.
Also, bringing it to light and trying to create a safe space will only make things worse. It’s a self fulfilling prophecy.
Only vegans can truly understand a topic sometimes.
What an arrogant take.
I said often only vegans can truly understand a vegan topic. And you’re just proving my point. Would you think that only a Christian can truly understand Christian topics for example? Why should they not be allowed to speak to Christians? I’m seeking responses from vegans since this question is very much geared towards topics that only vegans really discuss. That should be perfectly fine.
And of course I’m not going into carnivore communities and trolling. But you’re clearly coming into this vegan community and trolling for some reason.
Finally, as the numbers of vegans increase on this platform, there won’t be as much pushback from non-vegans whenever a vegan says something on a vegan community, as you can see on the Reddit vegan community that is well-established.
Now please kindly read the question that I’m here to talk to vegans, not non-vegans. This is question seeking a vegan’s perspective.
You edited your comment after I responded.
I never said what you said pretty sure. But I edited it literally immediately. I meant that often only vegans can truly understand a topic about veganism, which makes perfect sense.
All I’m gonna say about that, is yes safe spaces are typically were our notions (wrong or right) are reciprocated.
You aren’t looking for people to understand a topic, you just want similar minded people to “circle-jerk”, not accepting outside opinion, but pushing theirs on others, is a major issue with people these days.
Not trolling at all, just pointing out what’s come across the Hot feed the last couple days, and trying to create engagement.
I’m trying to talk to vegans about this topic. That’s all. This question is discussing things that vegans focus on in particular. If I was asking another question geared toward all people that would be different. Please leave me alone now.
Why does this read like a furry troll?
I’ve already gotten 2 non-vegans trolling. Please respect the nature of this question and only answer if you’re vegan and want to engage seriously.
I think you’re the one trolling as the question shows you don’t have a strong grasp of what species are, what racism is, and what constitutes speciest behavior.
If this post was made in good faith you might find these resources as a good place to start researching a solid platform to build your argument and logic
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Species
https://www.apa.org/topics/racism-bias-discrimination
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speciesism
Humans regardless of social structure have an inherent bias when it comes to interacting with animals. I think that’s where you’re starting your thought. However you cannot have racism applied to speciesm. There’s no structure for it in philosophy to compare the two. Preferring furry mammals over fish isn’t speciest.
The idea of having pets can be speciest, but which animal species one chooses as a companion is not speciest.
That’s why I thought you were some kind of furry troll.
The word is speciesist / speciesism (not speciest / speciesm, as anti-vegans often misspell them) and I’m not trolling
I’m not building any argument. I was asking a question. Now please tell me, are you vegan?
Saying racism isn’t comparable to speciesism when the logic used is exactly the same is something non-vegans and anti-vegans often say as well
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Vegan here.
I don’t think it’s speciesist to have subjective preference for a certain set of traits found in certain species, it’s only speciesist to use the absence of those traits to justify exploiting or oppressing others that don’t have them. I have trait preferences in my sexual partners for example, but that doesn’t mean I get to be a piece of shit to others, or that I’m a piece of shit for not seeking those partners I find less desirable.
Some animals for example just work bettter in the home. I dont bring a whale to my house not because I’m speciesist, but because it’s expensive impractal requires constant attention and is frankly not in their best interest.
No, because there are no factual differences between a greek person and a french person, but there is between a fish and a cat.
There are factual differences between races. Sure the differences might not be as pronounced as differences between species, but why does that matter? Why should those differences forbid us from treating them all equally given that they’re all sentient beings?
I donno but i couldn’t be feline supremacist because my cat is pretty dumb. she’s cute tho so ill keep giving her whatever she asks for.
Why is it that the one person who responded who seemed to actually be vegan had their messages deleted? Are the mods here not vegan? Or are higher up Lemmy mods brigading this sub?
The modlog is public
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