• @max@feddit.nl
    link
    fedilink
    578 months ago

    Never gets old how most people never care about nutrition until someone vegetarian/vegan shows up. Then they’re protein and/or B12 deficient, and they’ll die for sure!

    • @Kyyrypyy@lemmy.world
      link
      fedilink
      308 months ago

      As a carnivorous fattie, I do care about nutrition. And in all fairness, I’m open to suggestions for naturally vegetarian foods.

      Now, before I get a list of “vegan beef and tofu”, what I mean by naturally vegetarian, is foods that don’t include tofu (which I personally don’t just like), or need to advertise being vegan. I am looking for foods that, from the beginning of the time, have never had meat removed, or replaced. I want “accidentally vegetarian” -foods.

      My current favourite is bean-tomato soup, but it gets rather one note.

      • DumbAceDragon
        link
        fedilink
        English
        148 months ago

        I think I get what you’re saying, and I agree. It isn’t really as simple as “just remove/replace the meat”, because plant proteins simply just cook and handle differently than meat, and often time the meat is the core focus of a dish. Instead, the focus should be on recipes that are built around their ingredients. They can have a similar purpose to a traditional meat dish (I will take a black bean burger over a regular hamburger any day), but ultimately should be prepared different.

        Also, in my opinion, tofu is amazing when it isn’t just used as a drop-in meat replacement. It goes really great with sauces and also fries pretty well.

        • @spittingimage@lemmy.world
          link
          fedilink
          38 months ago

          How do you fry tofu well? I’ve been following youtube videos where the cooks do a pretty good impression of having an orgasm when they taste their tofu, but mine is like deep-fried cardboard.

        • @Kyyrypyy@lemmy.world
          link
          fedilink
          28 months ago

          This is quite the point I tried to make. Yeah, at this poi t beans are the only plant protein that I get even decent. Never heard of a black bean burger, to be honest, it won’t be the first recipe I’ll be looking with my cooking record.

          And for tofu. I know it isn’t originally meat replacement, and I’ve seen dishes that look amazing, but I still have trust issues when it comes to tofu. Maybe I need to retry some time if I encounter it in a (proper) buffet sometime. Still, I don’t trust it. I haven’t been a fan of shrooms either, and they just wasn’t my thing even now, when I recently tried to cook some. My SO liked the muahroom sauce though, so it wasn’t just about my inability to cook them.

      • @notabot@lemm.ee
        link
        fedilink
        128 months ago

        If you enjoy spicy foods (not necessarily hot, but richly flavoured) have a look at Indian cuisine. If you dodge the dishes that are more westernised most things are made with vegetables, and delicious. There’s a lot of variation between regions, so there should be plenty to keep you interested.

      • darq
        link
        fedilink
        128 months ago

        There are vegetable versions of every “incorporated” meal where all the ingredients are mixed together, like pasta, soup, curry, stir-fry, etc… And for every other meal, the meat portion is easily replaceable with another portion of vegetables.

        Going vegetarian really is as simple as “don’t put meat in it”. Just take it off the ingredient list. Meals do not naturally contain meat, so if you don’t add any, they won’t have any. It’s not something to be “substituted” unless you are wanting to mimic a specific meal.

        • @Kyyrypyy@lemmy.world
          link
          fedilink
          88 months ago

          And that’s why I’m still very carnivorous.

          There is always a design of a mean. The origin of a meal. And when it comes to health, there almost every time has to be protein. Most naturally to humans, who started to reach their human nature by cooking the meat they’ve captured, and builing a culture while waiting for that food to cook, most common source of protein is meat. Thus, most of the meals tend to be born from the meat being a center piece, which is then extended with everything else.

          There, however, are many means (that I would like to know about), that have originated from the lack of access to meat, yet with the need for the culinaristic taste in mind. These are the meals I am lookong for.

          As said: not removing the meat, not replacing the meat but not in the need for the meat. This is a concept every vegetarian wants to ignore. I am not looking to becoming vegan, or replacing my meats with replacements. I am looking to balance my meat with originally vegetarian recipes. Partly because of health reason, but also becaise I also want to have a collection of recipes for carnivores, that does not sound repulsive.

          I repeat: not to remove, not to replace, but designed from the beginnig around something other than meat. Considering all the replies I tend to get to these requirements tend o be “just drop the meat m’kay”, I’m starting to doupt if there is a way to properly design a meal without centering it around the meat.

          • @Sprucie@feddit.uk
            link
            fedilink
            148 months ago

            I would say lots of Indian food would fall into this category, there are lots of vegetarian by design meals which have things like lentils or chickpeas in to provide the protein that you’re looking for. Something like a daal or chana massala curry is a good place to start.

          • @areyouevenreal@lemm.ee
            link
            fedilink
            6
            edit-2
            8 months ago

            Humans became human through learning to cook in general. Not just learning to cook meat. Cooking has a large impact on the digestibility of vegetables, not just meat.

            If you wanted to be true to nature you would probably be eating very different meats to the ones you eat now. Things that grow locally like mammoth, buffalo, dogs, marmots, rats, even insects. Not imported animals like cows. You also wouldn’t be eating meat as often because hunting isn’t that reliable compared to foraging or harvesting crops. Modern agricultural plants don’t exist so you have to deal with much smaller and less nutritious wild plants and vegetables.

            I should point out I am not a vegan or vegetarian. I simply find it annoying when people use nature arguments while not understanding what the nature actually is.

            • @Kyyrypyy@lemmy.world
              link
              fedilink
              18 months ago

              Seems believable. But to my understanding, people did either hunt before, or began hunting during the same perioid. And yeah, for the meat people ate what was available, when it was available. Meat still played a big role, and perhaps in peoples minds (like mine) the part is very exaggarated due to it being a matter of celebration, when the hunt ended successfully. The celebration of meat might also be one of the leading reasons why our food industry has evolved so meat-centric. None the less, good to be reminded/educated myself.

              I’d also imagine that hunting tribes were more dominant over those who exclusively foraged. Not because they ate meat, but because they were more prestieged in killing.

              And no, I don’t want to be “true nature”, but I’d rather eat more balanced foods, which was one of the points this thread eventually started.

              • @areyouevenreal@lemm.ee
                link
                fedilink
                18 months ago

                Meat isn’t something we started eating when we became humans. I am pretty sure chimpanzees eat animals, though I think it’s mainly insects. Our specific strategy for hunting might have something to do with us developing intelligence but that isn’t certain by any means.

                Anyway lots of countries are not this meat centric as meat is more rare and expensive.

                It is somewhat more difficult to have a perfect diet without meat. Then again having a healthy balanced diet is general is difficult no matter how many animal products you use.

                I also think you missed the point of being vegan entirely. It’s to stop suffering, not because of nature or being healthy.

                • @Kyyrypyy@lemmy.world
                  link
                  fedilink
                  18 months ago

                  No, I know people prefers veganism due to ethical reasons. But the unfortunate fact is that there is always someone somewhere suffering, and in all honest, I’m down to reducing the overproduction of meat, and ensuring humane treatment, but stopping meat production just results all those animals being left to die on their own devices, which in turn, is more cruel I feel, considering most of those animals are at this point dependant on humans.

            • @Kyyrypyy@lemmy.world
              link
              fedilink
              48 months ago

              Same to you. This is why people who eat mainly meat don’t even consider vegan food. All vegans seem to be fixated upon replacing the meat, when the answer for vegetarian food that tastes good is to have recipes that don’t try to mimic meat diet.

              Just one recipe. Is that too much?

              • darq
                link
                fedilink
                11
                edit-2
                8 months ago

                This is why people who eat mainly meat don’t even consider vegan food.

                No, the reason is that you have invented a false history to justify not even trying.

                There are entire cultures where eating meat is either a rare occasion, or simply never done, even though they have access to meat and livestock.

                People eat what they had available. Sometimes that was meat, many times it wasn’t.

                Just one recipe. Is that too much?

                A simple vegetable soup is easy and nutritious. Most curries are vegetable-first and only become non-vegetarian by choosing to add meat instead of something like lentils or checkpeas. Vegetable lasagna is decadent and satisfying.

                There are near-infinite recipes available of food that is plant-based and tastes good. But you have this list of exclusionary factors where you have decided that various meals “should” have meat, and therefore a meat-free version has made a replacement, and is therefore inferior and you aren’t going to try it.

                You don’t need a recipe, you need a change of mindset.

                • @Kyyrypyy@lemmy.world
                  link
                  fedilink
                  18 months ago

                  Pre-history. This happened during the time human figured out how to work with fire, and started consuming cooked meat. The cooked meat itself was not what made human start “socializing”, but it introduced something no other animal did: waiting. To fill the void, people started to fill the time with what we now call culture. It is part of our evolutionary history.

                  None the less, in my first post I spesifically pointed out that I am not looking for “just remove meat”, which was the point. And your answer was “well these foods are good if you just remove the meat”. That is the issue why you do have issues to convert people to eat vegan: Instead of pointing out WHAT in WHICH cousine is originally meatless, you prefer to ignore the idea that it’s hard to start searching the vegetarian cousine, if the available cousine around you is based on “we’ll build this around meat”, and “Just build it around meat, and then replace or remove the meat”. This is the modern western viewpoint, and I am looking to break that for myself.

                  As per the other commentor suggested, I will look in to lentils in Indian cousine. However, I find that the modern vegetarian cousine has stagnated because of the need to sell “meatlesd meat”. Making a good food is about not making compromises. Not “deciding to just drop the meat”. I have tried a lot of “vegan options”, and as said, I am not looking to turn vegan. That is why I can decide NOT to compromise when it comes to meat. I, however, am open to try vegan cousine that, simply said is not “better by just adding meat”. And if you want to convert people to veganism, you need to change of mindset. You need to relize that people who eat meat are not willing to compromise with the meat, when they have already tried that cardboard they call “vegan meat”.

                  A recipe is a start.

              • @captainlezbian@lemmy.world
                link
                fedilink
                48 months ago

                Ok but a lot of the “replacement” I do is on par with replacing the original meat from a recipe to one that’s more palatable to American tastes. Black bean tacos are just as authentic as chicken tacos are. Chickpea or lentil curry is often more authentic than chicken curry considering the widespread long standing culture of vegetarianism on the Indian subcontinent. Falafel predates doner. And sometimes substitutions can be just good. I have a lentil shepherds pie I really like and did even when I’d just quit meat.

                Some other foods that don’t need meat to be good and healthy are chili with beans, tortilla soup, and beans and rice.

      • @usernamesAreTricky@lemmy.ml
        link
        fedilink
        118 months ago

        Ethiopian cuisine has a lot of dishes that are traditionally 100% plant-based and really good:

        For instance, stuff like Kik Alicha (a sort of split pea stew) to things that are more like a stir-fry on top of injera bread. Here’s one website talking about some of the various stuff though you can probably find more just from googling

        Outside of Ethiopian cuisine, I also really like Koshary, which is an Egyptian street food with lentils, chickpeas, elbow macaroni, rice, crispy onions, and tomato sauce. Admittedly Koshary is a bit of work to prepare compared to most other dishes, but it’s really good.

        There’s also stuff like falafel and hummus that are more widely known about in the West and plenty good too. There’s plenty more I missing because this comment is getting too long. Looking up “traditionally vegan dishes in [random country]” will give you a lot of good recipes you’d never have known about

      • @captainlezbian@lemmy.world
        link
        fedilink
        98 months ago

        Falafel isn’t really accidental in its veganism, it’s just vegan because it’s a really old food meant for people who can’t afford animal products

      • Applesauce
        link
        fedilink
        78 months ago

        I’ve been making black bean burritos for my kids for years, and they actually prefer that to burritos with meat in them. We are not vegetarian or vegan, but try to incorporate 3-4 meatless meals per week. Mainly because my wife has a degenerative kidney disorder that is compounded by proteins from animals.

        Ingredients are:

        Lime Can of black beans Bell pepper Onion Sharp cheddar cheese Avocado or guac Cumin Chili powder Salt Burrito sized tortillas Hot sauce (optional) Crispy jalapenos (optional)

        Slice up the onion and pepper and toss it in a pan or skillet on medium-low. Add a little salt to help them sweat. Cook these till the onions are caramelized. At the end, add the juice from half of the lime and season with cumin and chili powder to taste. Remove from heat and set aside.

        Put another pan/skillet on heat or rinse the pan you just used and placed back on heat.

        Drain and rinse the black beans, then season with cumin, and salt to taste.

        Shred the cheddar cheese and slice the avocado if you have one.

        Assemble and toast the burrito, turning it as it browns.

        Enjoy. I hope.

        • @Kyyrypyy@lemmy.world
          link
          fedilink
          18 months ago

          I think I’ll try that, even though blackeyed ones are not my favourite beans (I feel I never get the consistency of them right). Also, I might need to try these by myself, or figure out a way to make gluten free tortillas that don’t crumble when slightly looked at, as my SO has gluten allergy.

          Also, might need to keep cumin in mind, when making beans.

      • @msage@programming.dev
        link
        fedilink
        58 months ago

        India has very delicious and even heavy foods, that are vegetarian. Though the heavy ones usually contain butter.

      • rumschlumpel
        link
        fedilink
        Deutsch
        1
        edit-2
        8 months ago

        Many pizzas are vegetarian (e.g. margherita). IDK whether you’re looking for cheese-based dishes, though.

  • @Shiggles@sh.itjust.works
    link
    fedilink
    548 months ago

    One of my favorite facts about nature is the fact that practically nothing is vegan. Herbivores are basically constantly eating insects off of the plant matter they eat, and pretty much anything will eat eggs if they find them unguarded.

    My point is that if you want to be “closer to what nature intended”, being a vegan with cheat days is probably the closest you’ll get.

    • @reev@sh.itjust.works
      link
      fedilink
      English
      668 months ago

      Being vegan isn’t about being “closer to what nature intended”, it’s about reducing cruelty and harm as much as practicable/possible.

      • @shinratdr@lemmy.ca
        link
        fedilink
        218 months ago

        Being vegan is a lot of things to a lot of people. It’s not only about animal suffering. This is true for some people but plenty of people are vegan for health reasons.

        • @naevaTheRat@lemmy.dbzer0.com
          link
          fedilink
          148 months ago

          No they’re on plant based diets. you don’t stop using rabbit glue for health reasons, or not buy a leather couch for health reasons.

          Veganism is not a diet, it is a philosophical and moral stance which necessarily includes making changes to one’s diet among other things.

              • @shinratdr@lemmy.ca
                link
                fedilink
                58 months ago

                Yeah but the difference is there is no dictionary definition that supports that definition of feminism. It’s just an interpretation. You could say the same thing about veganism as being a philosophy that animals are superior to people. That’s a more direct metaphor and you would be just as wrong, and no dictionary would agree with you.

                Any “ism” will have multiple ways to define it, and those who coin a term don’t get to define its evolution. If you want to take the “GNU/Linux” approach and insist everyone else is using the word wrong then go for it. But in modern parlance, “vegan” is frequently if not almost always used to refer to the diet, whereas “veganism” does evoke the stricter definition you’re touting.

                • @naevaTheRat@lemmy.dbzer0.com
                  link
                  fedilink
                  98 months ago

                  Dictionaries are just someone’s attempt to record how people use words. They’re not authorities on meaning, just records of use.

                  If someone says they’re vegan you would expect them to use no animal products, including clothing, nail polish, colour pigments etc. That’s not controversial, you can find shampoo and jackets marked as vegan it is a common understanding. That is just incoherent with health motivations, and indeed many "vegan for health " people do use animal products and have cheat days and crap. They aren’t vegan, they’re just dieting.

                  People call themselves lots of crap, doesn’t make it true.

      • @Shiggles@sh.itjust.works
        link
        fedilink
        28 months ago

        I absolutely hear that argument all the time though, that “our stomachs aren’t designed to eat meat so you shouldn’t”.

        Personally, I have absolutely cut back on meat, especially beef, but still eat it probably twice a week. It’s a far more realistic ask than veganism, though I perhaps should’ve specified only the most deranged of vegans act like I was describing in the first place.

    • @CustodialTeapot@lemmy.world
      link
      fedilink
      258 months ago

      One of my favourite facts about people hating or finding “gotcha” moments to vegans/vegetarians is that most the time they don’t have a clue why people are vegan or vege and miss the whole point.

    • @naevaTheRat@lemmy.dbzer0.com
      link
      fedilink
      168 months ago

      … people are vegan precisely because they don’t think we should derive our notions of morality from random observations of charismatic megafauna.

      what on earth gave you the other idea? it’s always carnists that are like “see you have stubby little canines, eat meat” or “see lions eat the children of a pride when they take over so we should… wait fuck I mean lions eat gazelles alive sometimes so, wait sorry I’ll get it. Lions eat meat and are good role models as previously established so you should too”

          • CashewNut 🏴󠁢󠁥󠁧󠁿
            link
            fedilink
            128 months ago

            I’m capable of holding 2 conflicting ideas in my head at the same time without a complete mental breakdown.

            1. Animals don’t deserve to suffer.
            2. I like the taste of chicken and bacon.
              • @Wilzax@lemmy.world
                link
                fedilink
                68 months ago

                Hens I raise in my backyard coop and slaughter humanely when they stop laying? You’re telling me they suffer?

                • @naevaTheRat@lemmy.dbzer0.com
                  link
                  fedilink
                  78 months ago

                  Yep. To be clear I don’t think you’re a bad person deliberately abusing them but it’s likely that several things are true:

                  • they’re a breed that emphasises egg laying at the expense of their health and wellbeing. Jungle fowls, the birds chickens are bred from, lay around 12-20 eggs a year. Most chicken breeds lay about 10x that. This is hard on their body and shortens their lifespan. It is cruel to breed them in the same way it is cruel to breed pugs.

                  • As the demand for hens is much higher than roosters it is highly likely many of their brothers were killed, often moments after being born in a hatchery by a putting them on a conveyor belt that feeds them, conscious, into a blender. I wish I was making that up. Or they were stuffed into trays and suffocated in co2, not a pleasant experience either way. The blender might even be less cruel there.

                  • Because you view them as a means to an end it is unlikely you avail them to medical care of a quality you would give a child or a pet. Also it is likely they could enjoy more life when they stop laying but you do not view them as whole beings deserving of dignity and respect, so you kill them when they are no longer productive.

                  • It is unlikely they are killed humanely, a humane killing is one we would be happy to use on another human as a way to die with dignity. Maybe I’m wrong but I doubt you do anything so peaceful, consentual, and gentle.

                • Bob
                  link
                  fedilink
                  English
                  48 months ago

                  I think it’s uncontroversial to say having your life taken away constitutes suffering, unless you’re undergoing some extreme torture by staying alive, and causing suffering like that is inhumane. Just saying that you do it humanely doesn’t really change anything tangibly.

        • Raku
          link
          fedilink
          28 months ago

          I too suggest medical intervention when someone speaks about a subject I’m not emotionally mature enough to engage with.

          • @Shiggles@sh.itjust.works
            link
            fedilink
            28 months ago

            As a general rule as soon as you start making up words like “carnists” and trying to insert them in regular conversation, you’re probably very deep down a rabbit hole and need to strongly consider the life choices that got you there.

            • Raku
              link
              fedilink
              18 months ago

              Sure sure, whatever makes you feel more comfortable.