Watched Louis Rossman today, and he’s part of the team behind a new app for watching online video content - not just youtube, but nebula, peertube, twitch and more.
adblock already integrated, works amazingly with a quick test on my end - it’s an app in the Lemmy spirit
(it’s got a paid model similar to winrar, you don’t have to pay - but they do want you to - opensource and all)
basically Newpipe but only source available, not really free software or open source, so they are restricting your freedoms.
Just keep using Newpipe instead.
It is open source but you can’t publish modified code (this is to ensure there will be no malicious forks like there was with newpipe)
plus you missed the entire point:
… app for watching online video content - not just youtube, but nebula, peertube, twitch and more.
It’s an app that allows you to watch the same creators across many platforms
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That’s not the problem. The question is, stopping actors that put ads and paywalls behind modified source, which technically isn’t malicious, it’s just being a jerk and this licensing makes it much easier to take down. Ofc, if he actually wanted it to be open source, he’d just force all derivatives to be non commercial.
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Yeah… You’re not going to stop any of that without war.
Oh yeah, because someone who wants to do that is going to see that and think oh no, he doesn’t want us to, guess we shouldn’t
That’s not the point. The point is takedown actions being a lot easier especially if one of the idiots tries to argue against
The point is, that anyone who tries to make money by ad-bombing the app and adding it to the playstore will be punished. If you post your virus-infected fork in the far-behind edge of internet-nowhere Louis would not care about that. Otherwise: why do you not ask him yourself if you want to post your own fork and under which conditions that should be possible. If you ride principles, then develop your own app that is much much better and FOSS than grayjay. Nobody stops you.
I mean, at least in this case he can take down fake copies from the most popular app stores. That mitigates the reach of malicious clones a lot.
Rossman is an idiot, that’s how. Luckily he’s a useful idiot in most cases.
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Wow, this is a high quality comment.
I guess it’s understandable to be concerned about licensing when putting money and work into a project like this, but I still hope they change their mind.
“open source” to enshittification pipeline license
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The term “open source” generally refers to the definition by the Open Source Initiative.
Not allowing publishing of modified source code is in violation with the criteria of open source.
FLOSS or die
Whew
It is open source but you can’t publish modified code (this is to ensure there will be no malicious forks like there was with newpipe)
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that is not open source. That is source available.
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because we all know that license agreements are a line that trojan distributors will not cross. Not malware distribution, not hacking laws, but copyright infringement. They’d never do that at all.
because we all know that license agreements are a line that trojan distributors will not cross. Not malware distribution, not hacking laws, but copyright infringement. They’d never do that at all.
I believe it would be significantly easier to submit a takedown request for copyright issues, compared to reporting an app for being malicious.
That’s not the case at all. These kind of Trojan operations are fly-by-night setups, and have the advantage of being able to react far faster than the official Devs. By the time you as the dev even know of the app’s existence, they’ve already infected hundreds. And when you do get round to filing a takedown notice, they’ll be back up the next day under a different name.
Even Nintendo can’t get copyright infringing shit off Play Store in any fast capacity. Heck, Google will even run ads for people blatantly breaking copyright laws.
Edit: and that’s before considering that Google won’t let them onto play store and being only source available excludes them from eligibility for official F-Droid repos. They’re going to have an absolute bitch of a time dealing with fakes and Trojans, even if they didn’t release the source code at all
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…so it’s newpipe.
You can’t search multiple platforms at once with newpipe. This is a bigger thing that you think.
Also it has recommendations
I don’t believe newpipe has a way to cast so that’s what I’m interested in here
I could not find a link to the source on the website 🤔 do you know where the source is?
Have you used it? It’s like NewPipe except that it’s better in almost every way. The ONLY downside is that it’s just old-fashioned open source instead of FOSS.
It’s not open source
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Incorrect. People have been calling random software open source since the 80s, because it’s a very vague term. The new definition that you think is gospel wasn’t invented until the OSI was formed in '98.
“open source” is a self explanatory phrase. The source code is open, therefore it’s open source.
If you watch the video, Louis explains why they only made it source available
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It’s not open source. It’s source available.
It’s not open source…but the source is open.
Not the same
Yeah but their sentence is correct:
The project is not open source (in terms of FOSS) but the source is open.
The whole license stuff is complicated enough, why are we using confusing technical terms?
Open source should be open source and free and modifyable source should be sth else
The source is literally not “open”. It doesn’t make sense to say that without referring to open source.
Saying the source is available to see, that makes sense though.There have always been multiple definitions of “open source”. That’s why it’s always best to specify. If you mean FOSS, say FOSS. Don’t use an ambiguous term like “open source”.
Open source is not an ambiguous term. FOSS stands for “free and open source software”. It extends the word you claim is ambiguous with the word “free”. That word actually is ambiguous as in other cases it could mean “gratis” and not “it grants it’s users freedom”.
How is that better than the more established term with the very clear definition by the OSI? It’s okay if you mixed these terms up. I just don’t understand what you’re trying to do here.Then everyone should stop using “open source” or there’s going to be arguments over what counts as open source every single time.
Well luckily there’s no arguments necessary, as we have the definition by the OSI. I actually rarely see any discussion about that, and when I do it’s mostly ill-informed comment sections.
Yes, that’s what I’m saying. But as you can tell from this whole thread, it’s not going well. LOL.
that’s called source-available
Its open source, not free software.
Although, its basically perpetual license shareware.
No one is holding a gun to anyones head and forcing them to buy it
Indeed.
It is an interesting project, not sure where it goes. The title is deeply misleading though. The features of ReVanced make YouTube so much better, whereas this project doesn’t seem to be about making YouTube better so much as circumnavigating YouTube for the comment boxes and as your hub to creators. They seem to be doing different things.
What do they do differently?
So, I really want to be optimistic about this project. I love that it integrates multiple sources, that it lets you use different identities that are not attached to any of these services. I installed it and already paid for it even, because I love initiatives like this.
I think it’s unsustainable. In 5 years, everyone who’d use the app’s already paid for it, which means the devs have no incentive to continue to work, and funding dries up. When that happens, they’ll of course just let the app run until the plugins stop working. Nobody will be able to pick it up and continue development in an open forum because it’s not FLOSS.
My hope is they re-license it under a copyleft license later, but I’m not optimistic about that happening. With how things are now, it does appear to be doomed to enshittification.
As long as Rossmann has a say in the ordeal I doubt it’ll enshittify. If it they can’t carry it anymore, I think they’ll re-license it.
But in any case, I’m really glad to see effort toward this. Because I may be naive, but I think this will make viewers & potential devs aware that it’s possible to have a great experience consuming video without being tied up in Youtube’s basement, and I predict will inspire more FOSS in the same vein.You just described why subscriptions are rampant in the software industry.
We use to have upgrade pricing and paid major revisions for software. But things changed to progressive models. And then things like what you described came along over extended periods of time.
Yes, subscriptions are probably the closest there is to sustainable development in a proprietary framework
ReVanced taps into my history with microg. When I watch stuff on desktop with Firefox and uBlock Origin, I want those videos to show as watched on my phone when I open ReVanced so I don’t get recommended the same stuff. That works.
GrayJay can’t do this. It’s not better. It’s a good idea, but it’s a side grade.
Grayjay can do this - there is a toggle in the settings for the YouTube addin to sync watch data with your Google account.
It’s a one-time sync though. If I want history from what I watched on my desktop today I have to resync.
I just want Smarttube Next for mobile.
As lemann pointed out there’s a setting for that in the YT add-on im the sources tab, not the app settings. Also myself and others have had loading issues with Revanced. It’ll start playing, suddenly start buffering and never stops. Grayjay works as it should and still has the settings I want from Revanced. Not to argue, just want to let others in my situation know Grayjay is the upgrade we need.
I had that issue and it was because I needed to update Revanced.
That’s what I saw in a reddit post way back but updating and reinstall never fixed it. I was using YT on browser for a while just because it was more reliable and didn’t have ads. UI sucked ass though. Ky biggest critique on Grayjay so far is the lack of vertical swipes to adjust volume/brightness.
I’m having the same problem with revanced right now. Buffering and pausing and often never recovering.
Make the jump to Grayjay, my friend. It’s worth it.
Thanks, I actually have it installed and I’ve been playing with it. It’s been playing smoothly.
The problem is that the authentication with my account is failing, so I can’t get my subscriptions and watch history. I’m still working on figuring it out
That’s the exact opposite of what most people want from an app like this.
It’s what I want from an app like this 🤷♂️
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However, I’m worried about what Rossmann says in regards to profit and maintenance. The app is moderated/worked-on by (I think paid) professionals and we should pay a license of $9.99 yet the app is also unprofitable and may never turn a profit. So, what’s the point in paying for the app?
By paying for the app, you’re merely donating to FUTO. As Rossmann mentioned in his video, it is completely optional to pay.
There’s nothing wrong with any app being unprofitable IMO. Public transport and car infrastructure is unprofitable and we don’t have a problem with those… heck even my personal website is unprofitable, that’s about $200-300 a year being funnelled into something nobody uses or visits.
Rossmann has a millionaire backing up his repair business
This is incorrect
Rossmann’s personal repair business is financially independent from his employer, FUTO, who only partially sponsors Rossmann’s R2R advocacy with the assistance of community donations. Rossmann frequently publishes hour long videos on his main channel crawling through the finances, and has spreadsheets online for public viewing where viewers can do an audit themselves
So, is some of this being funded by that person and other investors of FUTO or is our money the only thing keeping this afloat
AFAICT, FUTO is comparable to organisations like NLNET - the same people at sponsor the Lemmy devs. The aim is generally not to fund projects forever, but to eventually open source them after they’ve been developed to the agreed level of functionality. Seeing as this app is mainly a Rossmann initiative there could be an exception here though - such as Rossmann donating his own money towards development.
The app is niche and I can’t see too many people paying for a license
I’m probably an exception then lol
Spoiler
I also can’t see too many workers staying unless they are passionate. Something isn’t adding up unless I’m wrong.
A lot of people who follow Rossmann are passionate about R2R, actually owning what you pay for, and not giving excessive control to monopolies like Google.
Grayjay is more along the lines of this spirit, and as soon as they have their DHT video hosting thing ready I’ll gladly donate some of my storage space towards it 👌
So Rossmann is a lobbyist for an activist billionaire?
I think right to repair is important btw. Not questioning that.
Yep. And a right libertarian. I stopped watching him when he went from repair content to months long complaining about taxes and talking up Florida and Texas as some great place. Honestly, I am 100% convinced that the only reason he even cares about right to repair is for his work. He has shown no signs of caring about anyone else other than himself in any of the dozens of hours of content I watched of his.
I’m so glad I trained under Jessa at iPad Rehab instead of taking his course.
He’s always felt off to me. And it’s not just because I’m into Apple products. I find it hard to articulate. But I see I’m not alone, thanks for sharing.
Yeah I was in the industry when he got big, and it was hard not to love his anger towards Apple, but eventually it became apparent he was just an angry person and Apple was only his current target. Once he had secured his platform, he felt more comfortable to share his absurd views, and I fear he influenced many impressionable people towards the right with his rhetoric. Dude is not who I want representing the repair community.
the only reason he even cares about right to repair is for his work
This is exactly it. I appreciate that he’s a strong advocate for it, and he’s a single issue voter/lobbyist, but he really wouldn’t care about it if it wasn’t his business. As can be seen in how, while he so strongly believes in a right for third parties to maintain hardware, he very clearly doesn’t believe in a right for third parties to maintain software with this app being source-available and not FLOSS.
There are plenty of projects that take donations/payments that don’t make profit but stay afloat, normally through the team behind it paying the bills. I guess it depends what the running costs actually are, and if it’s for people or e.g. servers.
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Rossmann has a millionaire backing up his repair business among other things.
Why does everybody seem to know all of this dirt about Louis except me? I’ve seen this “be suspicious of anything Rossman is involved in” comment a few times in the past few days. I’m out of the loop.
It sounds interesting, but… Android only? I don’t actually watch much video on my phone. It’s mostly on my desktop browser.
Not optimal, but using Waydroid on Linux, Android apps feel almost like they run natively (no need to start a emulator manually).
GTK Thanks
Gotta start somewhere.
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I just bought the FUTO voice input app as well from them and it’s genuinely amazing. It has punctuation where it needs to. It cuts out all the UM’s. And the best part is, I don’t have to pretend that I’m talking to a robot. I can just speak as if I’m talking to a normal person and it gets it right nearly every single time. It is so worth the $5.
This entire comment was typed with it, and I did not edit a single thing.
Thank you so much for this suggestion. It’s really a great step towards the end of tedious voice messages. Works great but is a bit slow when using the multilang voice model. I don’t mind.
I wouldn’t classify it as a better revanced, but that doesn’t matter, thanks for sharing this awesome tool I really liked it, I first started incorporating Matrix in my life, then a couple days ago Lemmy, and now this, it’s great
What is this Matrix you are talking about?
Search for Elements aswell with Matrix
Interesting, thank you for sharing.
You are welcome 🤗
It’s not enough to make work around for YouTube. We need a new YouTube.
True, but with the ability to combine all competitors in a single feed a significant hurdle has been removed
This is why I’m excited for it. Alternatives simply do not have the breadth nor depth of videos YouTube does, but if the same content is found on either platform, you bet I’ll pick an alternative. It’s an onramp to other services.
that’s literally the whole point of this?
the point of this is a new youtube is unlikely to take off because people can’t start using it without missing all their regular content.
this means you can keep all your regular content and add new sources, with the same creators, which means they can start to move to new platforms and take their followers. that’s how we’ll replace youtube.
He talked about saving videos from being deleted when you lose one of your accounts, so it’s in the works
That’s basically what it is
What’s Piped?
Piped is alternative frontend, so still youtube
It needs YouTube to fall first, no one has that kind of money to operate at such a loss for such a long time.
Platforms with a serious offering have no chance until that.
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Wdym by bypass and those files ? I am sorry, but do you mean u need to edit something, delete or overwrite ?
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They can get forks taken down from legit places like GitHub, but this is the piracy community, isn’t it?
Anyway, have you actually used the app? It’s fucking amazing, it works flawlessly in my experience. I played with it for an hour and immediately gave them ten bucks, it’s better than NewPipe, ReVanced, everything I’ve tried.
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Is there SponserBlock support?
If it supported both SponserBlock and DeArrow I’d switch in a heartbeat. Until then I’ll stick to ReVanced.
No. At least not yet
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It replaces clickbait titles and thumbnails with more reasonable community-provided ones. From the same developers as sponserblock.
Not as far as I can see but it is in alpha
please edit this post to remove the incorrect claim that this is open source, as it is clearly not.
I have found three comments from you, where you insert yourself as an expert on what Open Source is/not is. Although you do link to some sources, you do so without arguing your point. IMO this is not a constructive way of communication. Since I believe your perspective is purist but overall not too helpful, I will go through the trouble an actually argue the point:
Your problem is following sentence published by the OSI: “The license shall not restrict any party from selling or giving away the software as a component of an aggregate software distribution containing programs from several different sources.” Which FUTO does - they won’t allow you to put ads on top of their software and distribute it. But I hope that you would agree with me that GNU GPL is an Open Source License. However, they do have a copyleft which practically makes selling software impossible. If you use a library which uses the GPL, you have to make your sources available - which makes selling a compiled version a difficult task…
If we look at Wikipedia, we see following sentence: “Generally, open source refers to a computer program in which the source code is available to the general public for use or modification from its original design.”, Grayjay fulfils this. Wikipedia continues: “{…}. Depending on the license terms, others may then download, modify, and publish their version {…}”, you are allowed to download and modify Grayjay. They do not allow you to commercially distribute your modifications, which is a license term.
Lets look at a big OSS company. Red Hat writes: “An open source development model is the process used by an open source community project to develop open source software. The software is then released under an open source license, so anyone can view or modify the source code.” These criteria are fulfilled by the FUTO TEMPORARY LICENSE (Last updated 7 June 2023). Red Hat does not mention the right to redistribute anywhere I could find it.
To those who actually read up to this point: I hope you find this helpful to form your own opinion based on your own research.
You can argue that “open source” can mean other things that what the OSI defined it to mean, but the truth of the matter is that almost everyone thinks of the OSI or similar definition when they talk about “open source”. Insisting on using the term this way is deliberately misleading. Even your own links don’t support your argument.
A bit further down in the Wikipedia page is this:
Main article: Open-source software
Generally, open source refers to a computer program in which the source code is available to the general public for use for any (including commercial) purpose, or modification from its original design.
And if you go to the main article, it is apparent that the OSI definition is treated as the de fact definition of open source. I’m not going to quote everything, but here are examples of this:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open-source_software#Definitions
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open-source_software#Open-source_versus_source-availableAnd from Red Hat, literally the first sentence
Open source is a term that originally referred to open source software (OSS). Open source software is code that is designed to be publicly accessible—anyone can see, modify, and distribute the code as they see fit.
…
And if we follow that link:
In actuality, neither free software nor open source software denote anything about cost—both kinds of software can be legally sold or given away.
But the Red Hat page is a bad source anyway because it is written like a short intro and not a formal definition of the concept. Taking a random sentence from it and arguing that it doesn’t mention distribution makes no sense.
Here is a more comprehensive page from Red Hat, that clearly states that they evaluate whether a license is open source based on OSI and the FSF definitions.
since you copy+pasted this wall of confused text to me in 3 different places I guess I’ll reply here too, in the not-deleted thread: https://opensource.org/authority/ (this is not even a controversial topic)
It is not free software but it is open source. Stop gatekeeping the term. I can look at the code and modify it to my hearts content. I can also watch as the project is being developed. That means it’s open source. It would be free software if you where also allowed to redistribute it but I can fully see why they do not want that
it is open source. Stop gatekeeping the term
i guess you didn’t click the link in my comment? here is another, with a list of governments and other entities who all agree about the definition: https://opensource.org/authority/
Oh so what you’re trying to say is that, because the license they chose is not on this list, it’s not open source. Stupid take IMO but you do you
It isn’t about the list of approved licenses, it’s about the criteria for being added to the list. New licenses regularly meet the definition. This license clearly does not.
so what Edward Snowden developed a closed source license
oh cool, if Edward Snowden did it I guess software freedom isn’t important anymore 🙄
But seriously, did he? which one? I’m not familiar with that.
But even if he did release something under one, I would be extremely surprised if he called a non-free license “open source” as FUTO is doing here.
top 10 most deserving people to be on an emkay video number 2:
edit: also i borderline didn’t understand what he was saying
The source is freely available, but it does not fit the common definition of open source. Namely, you’re not allowed to redistribute with tracking, malware, or adds. I guess this has been a problem with piped?
Yes, this has been a major issue for NewPipe, see here.
This whole discussion is like arguing how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. It depends completely on how you define open source, and there is no single universally agreed upon definition. Per this article, there are over 80 variations of open source licenses all with different term and conditions. Some are more permissive, some less so. Yet they can all be considered a variation of open source, though I’m anticipating you wouldn’t agree? For this particular app, there are some restrictions in place aimed to protect users from malicious forks. IMO this is a good thing. I can’t understand why you are acting like the definition police here, it seems very pedantic tbh.
Many software buyers – even new developers – misunderstand the term “open source” to mean the software is available to use, copy, modify, and distribute as desired. This misunderstanding may arise from confusing open source with public domain or shareware, both of which are free to use and modify without specific permissions or licensing.
The truth is that, for the most part, open-source software is covered by one of several types of open source licenses and is not necessarily free of charge either.
In contrast to proprietary software where vendors typically make it impossible to access, copy or modify the source code, open source code permits the use, reuse, sharing, modification, and distribution of the code in other programs or applications. But just as with proprietary software licensing, open source software is subject to various legal terms and restrictions, depending on the type of open source license in force.
there is no single universally agreed upon definition
There is an overwhelmingly agreed-upon definition. Look at who agrees with it: https://opensource.org/authority/
And who doesn’t agree? Historically, a few of the giant software companies who were threatened by the free software movement thought that “open source” was a way for them to talk the talk without walking the walk. However, years ago, even they all eventually agreed about OSI’s definition and today they use terms like source-available software for their products that don’t meet it.
Today it is only misinformed people like yourself, and grifters trying to profit off of the positive perception of the term. I’m assuming Louis Rossman is in the former category too; we’ll see in the near future if he acknowledges that the FUTO license is not open source and/or relicenses the project under an open source license.
there are over 80 variations of open source licenses all with different term and conditions. Some are more permissive, some less so. Yet they can all be considered a variation of open source, though I’m anticipating you wouldn’t agree?
There are many open source licenses, and many non-open-source licenses. there is a list of licenses which OSI has analyzed and found to meet their definition; licenses which aren’t on that list can be open source too… but to see if they are, you would need to read the license and the definition.
Have you read The Open Source Definition? I’m assuming not.
I can’t understand why you are acting like the definition police here, it seems very pedantic tbh.
It’s because (1) FUTO are deceiving their customers by claiming that their product is something which it isn’t, and (2) they’re harming the free and open source software movements by telling people that terms mean things contrary to what they actually mean.
You make some good points, but whether it exactly meets every criteria of open source software as per that definition or not, I really can’t bring myself to care that much either way. I get that it’s important to you, and that’s fine, but not everyone cares that much about it. People can read and vet the source code, the intention of the project seems good, and the intention of the authors in deviating slightly from pure open source principles seems to be to protect their users from scammy clones, which also seems fine with me. TBH we’re not really into strictly following the letter of the law in the pirate community, and if this app helps people to avoid surveillance capitalism and puts even the slightest dent in Google’s massive profits then I’m all for it. Anyways, have a good one.
deviating slightly from pure open source principles
saying that prohibiting redistribution is just “deviating slightly from pure open source principles” is like saying that a dish with a bit of meat in it is just “deviating slightly” from a vegetarian recipe.
if you saw a restaurant labeling their food as vegetarian because their dishes were based on vegetarian recipes, but had some meat added, would you say that it seems like their intentions are good?
to protect their users from scammy clones
As I said in another comment, the way free open source software projects should (and can, and do) generally do this is using trademark law. He could license it under any free software license but require derivatives to change the name to avoid misleading or confusing users. This is what Firefox and many other projects do.
TBH we’re not really into strictly following the letter of the law in the pirate community
In the video announcing the project Louis Rossmann explicitly says he intends to vigorously enforce this license. Since it is a copyright license, the only ways of actually enforcing it are to send DMCA takedowns and/or sue people for copyright infringement.
What fresh hell of goalpost moving is this? You’re so bad faith.
https://gitlab.futo.org/videostreaming/grayjay/-/blob/master/LICENSE: FUTO TEMPORARY LICENSE It seems like it’s more CC non-commercial and not truly libre but I can understand why someone would say open source.
I can understand why someone would say open source
I can understand why too: it’s either because they were not aware of the widely agreed-upon definition of the term, or because they’re being disingenuous. I’m assuming it was the former; whether OP edits the post will reveal if it was actually the latter.
Oh go on you absolute fucking blowhard. Go print out a copy of osi and jerk off in your closet and leave the rest if us functional adults alone.
I was excited about this but it’s mobile only?
With how locked down mobile is compared to desktop I think it’s a good thing to start with mobile
Agreed, great start for the project
WDYM by locked down?
I really hope they add sponsorblock and dearrow support in the future because this is a truly awesome app.
Dearrow is so nice, fuck them clickbaits.
