What an utter piece of shit.
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I think technically they’re more “terrorists” than “rogue nations”
I mean 9/11 was performed by some rich family member.
Are you referring to the coordinators or the person who knew about it but let it happen so he could go back and finish daddy’s war?
Well now that you say it like that I guess it could be both.
Their families were all buddies though.
Makes sense why they invaded some other country then
Why not both? Bin Laden had a $7million a year stipend until just a few years earlier.
Right? W is all like, “good one, Osama, but watch how I strike back!” As they clink glasses and play games with lives.
Easiest solution in the world is to treat them to the guillotine
Is this not treason? Like legitimately, technically.
It may be a violation of the Logan Act, which makes it illegal for private citizens to interfere with foreign relations.
The Logan Act deals with private citizens negotiating with foreign governments. Unless he fucked with Starlink at the direct request of the Russian gov’t, I don’t see how the Logan Act applies. EDIT: apparently he did it after speaking with Russian government officials. So never mind, Logan Act is absolutely implicated.
*Foreign governments having a dispute with the United States. I don’t think this qualifies. Unfortunately.
That 76 billion in aid was just for funsies, nothing to do with Russia.
What’s your point? We’re still not in a dispute with Russia. A proxy dispute, maybe, but we’re not in active conflict with them.
I’m on your side! Elon is a fuckwit and Russia is run by a despot but I don’t think the Logan act applies
Dispute like actively sanctioning them? That kind of dispute?
I don’t know the legal definition of dispute but it seems to me a very loose term. Even more so than conflict or otherwise.
Me either but I think a dispute would involve our military directly.
Against Ukraine certainly, but since he’s not a citizen of Ukraine, then no. If these were US forces that he sabotaged, or the US was actually fighting in the war then it would also qualify, but once again that doesn’t apply. It definitely runs counter to US foreign interests, but that’s not enough to qualify (and probably good it doesn’t, a LOT of stuff people regularly do it could be argued would run counter to US foreign interests).
He did this with federal funds. And the US hasn’t declared war since, what, WW2? The Rosenbergs were executed for treason, and we never declared war with USSR.
The Rosenbergs were executed for treason
Espionage, actually.
I don’t know the legal definition of espionage but sure as hell seems like elons loyalty lies outside of the US.
Elon’s loyalty lies with Elon. It’s never been otherwise.
The Rosenbergs were convicted on espionage charges. They were sending classified info to the USSR. That’s different from treason although it’s related. The funding angle is an interesting question though. It still wouldn’t be treason, but it could qualify as… breach of contract maybe? Not sure exactly that the charge is when the government pays you for a service and you don’t fullfill the service in a satisfactory manner.
Would this not be espionage? Or would he have to have been acting under the direction of a state actor?
Espionage would require providing confidential intel to a foreign power. As far as I’m aware he didn’t share any intel, merely disabled the internet service he was providing within key areas. Even then, leaking Unkranian intel to Russia while arguably espionage against Ukraine would likely not qualify. He would need to provide confidential US material to Russia (or another foreign power) for it to be espionage.
Espionage can also encompass acts of sabotage, there are ways this could qualify if it was American forces affected. It’s also a glaring example of why many countries maintain state share in major defence companies. No idiot scrolling conspiracy theories on Twitter should be able to not only breach operational security, which he clearly was since he knew the operation was underway, but also sabotage it.
This was not sabotage, Ukraine was violating the terms of service of Starlink.
Uh… People from Vietnam, Korea, and Afganistan would like to differ. (not an exclusive list).
“Declared”
Ok! They’d be objectively wrong, but yeah, differ away!
Although a bit irrelevant to the discussion about treason, I had to giggle at the WW2 bit. A simpler statistic would be when the US was not at war.
It’s mostly a semantics game. The US is involved in military conflicts all the time, but those are not officially “wars”, since the US going to war requires Congress to officially declare it. Therefore anytime the US was involved in a military conflict, but Congress did not issue a formal declaration of war, the US was not technically at war. He is correct in that the last time that Congress formally declared war was WW2.
However, all that said, that’s just silly semantic games, everyone understands that if the US deploys military forces against another nations military forces that is in fact war, and on that metric the US has had many wars since WW2.
Oh I get it, but we all know the definition is bullshit
He did not actually do it with federal funds. These were donated Starlink terminals and service was paid for by SpaceX.
That’s the whole point, the US government allowed civilian technology to be used in war by a foreign government.
He did this with federal funds
Apparently this was before he got federal funds.
Didn’t he get subsidies for spaceX and Tesla?
Tesla got some preferential loans in 2010, it paid them off by 2013. Now it benefits from buyers of any brand electric car getting subsidies… so, “kind of”?
SpaceX got government contracts for specific services… which could have been inflated or not, but didn’t include Starlink (at least not officially).
This is different from direct subsidies like those given to Boeing, which also gets inflated contracts (see NASA’s SLS), but in addition gets preferential tax discounts and lowered export taxes.
This reeks of espionage. With a slight hint of war crimes?
This has nothing to do with being Ukrainian, but everything to do with being American, and actively working against American interests and official national and White house policies.
He is actively working against the support USA is providing, and has paid him for, and has ordered him not to sabotage or diminish.
This is treason, which is logical, since Elon Musk is a Trump supporter and they are both traitors and Elon Musk is a pedophile Nazi.
While I think we can all agree that it’s treasonous or at least treason adjacent, it however does not meet the specific legal definition of Treason used by the US. Like most of the rich and powerful he’s threading legal loopholes to do what he wants without actually violating the letter of any laws while simultaneously stomping all over the spirit of them. There’s a strong argument to be made that he is committing sabotage against Ukraine, but once again that’s not technically illegal in the US. I don’t even think Ukraine has an extradition treaty with the US, so even if Musk was charged and convicted in Ukraine, there isn’t really anything they could do about it.
At the end of the day, Ukraine fucked up by trusting and relying on a private contractor for their critical infrastructure. They were in a bind and needed a solution so they leapt at the first one that was dangled in front of them, but it was a hasty decision that has bitten them in the long run. For better or worse there’s a reason that no nation relies on infrastructure they don’t control for military support, and it’s exactly this situation. Even if the hardware was manufactured by a contractor, they would make sure their country was the ones in control of it. Starlink should have been at best an emergency stopgap while Ukraine found another long term solution specifically because it puts their military at the mercy of the whims of a foreign national (not to mention the operational security nightmare where now they have a private US corporation able to literally watch and track their military movements in real time).
Elon Musk is a pedophile Nazi.
While I think Musk is a slimy piece of shit that’s made a career out of stealing credit for other peoples ideas, this might be going too far.
While I think Musk is a slimy piece of shit that’s made a career out of stealing credit for other peoples ideas, this might be going too far.
Pedophile is something Elon Musk himself apparently finds it appropriate to call people he disagree with. So I call him a pedophile because I disagree with him.
A Nazi is because he has shown quite a bit of Nazi like opinions and sympathies.
Here he is literally using Nazi imagery: https://www.businessinsider.com/elon-musk-shared-twitter-meme-nazi-soldier-image-2022-11?r=US&IR=T
Also I think it’s fair to call Russia a Nazi regime, and Musk has shown several times he sympathizes with Russia, and he has used Russian talking points about Ukraine.
Same goes for Trump and his very clear Russian sympathies and connections, and Elon Musk is a Trump supporter.
So all in all, it’s seems to me absolutely fair to call Elon Musk a pedophile Nazi. It’s not a title I generally use about other people, only Elon Musk, because he deserves that title 100%.
The US government never paid him to provide military service in Ukraine.
Treason is very narrowly defined in US law. The US is not at war with Russia, and the US is not Ukraine, so no, it’s not.
Sedition?
Again. The US government is not the Ukrainian government.
The most painful thing the government could do would be to sanction Musk and his companies for taking actions counter to US foreign policy prerogatives, but then Musk would just pull the plug on Starlink altogether. So nothing will be done.
Seeing as musk could unilaterally act in a fashion contrary to US foreign policy, in the interest of national security the government should take control of the company then.
Obviously that would be an extreme step but… how bad would that get?
That’s basically a variant of eminent domain, but I suspect it would be a hard case to argue. Ukraine chose to use Starlink, and the US governments power to invoke eminent domain is based on the common good provided to the US public via the seized property. It’s arguable whether the US public would see much if any value from the US government running Starlink unless they’re going to start providing free service to US citizens. There’s also the problem that there are plenty of other options that don’t require seizing of property.
The US could just nationalise it. SpaceX is basically running on government money anyway, just fold it into NASA.
NASA is basically being forced by Congress to funnel SLS program money into select contractors against NASA’s own assessments. I don’t think you want any of their hands near SpaceX if you want it to stay operational.
Also no. Americans do not legally owe any loyalty to the Ukrainian government.
Nope, he wasn’t trying to overthrow the government of country he is a citizen of. He could be considered a non state actor though.
Enemy combatant? I’m running out of words here?
The Ukrainians can certainly call him that.
Notable examples of Non State Actors are: Blackwater(American security company) Wagner (Russian).
Weird “enemy” who’s actively supporting 99% of one’s war efforts.
By that rule of thumb, would the US be an “enemy” for being reluctant to supply latest gen weaponry to Ukraine?
Are you compelled by neurodiversity to be pedantic? Or do you just enjoy it?
How is the difference between “supporting in almost everything” vs. “attacking”, a pedantic one?
It’s cute how if Ukraine fights back that risks nuclear war, but when Russia invades a sovereign country it doesn’t
Ukraine doesn’t have nukes
Not anymore. They gave them to Russia under guarantees they wouldt do… pretty much everything they are doing right now.
I’m starting to think Russia might not be trustworthy…
That doesn’t address the previous claim in any manner.
It’s like the rule of money, but with nukes: those who have the money/nukes, make the rules.
Hang on… That’s sabotage. Straight up. That’s a criminal offence no?
Elon is not the president, a leader, the military, nor a government. This parasite should be in a prison or a brig at the very least. This is fucking treason.
If he loves Russia so much, we should deport him there, and nationalize all his assets since SpaceX is a critical security apparatus and he’s clearly the foreign agent of a hostile power.
No no, give him to Ukrain, where they can charge and try him. Hopefully end up with life in prison or something better (worse?). Giving him to Russia just makes him more of a Russian asset.
Or OR we ask him to emerge from the Black Sea in his swim trunks to beguile both sides with his majestic beauty and raw sexuality, thereby ending the conflict and bringing peace to the regionHe looks like Buffalo Bill here: “I’d fuck me!”.
(As Q Lazarus blasts in the background.)
needs less hair transplant
This right here is why I think he was honeypotted by Russian agents who now have kompromat on him.
Then again, being a greedy douche seems his default mode.
This assumes he provides something of value beyond his money
Of value or not, he needs to be trotted out in front of Ukrainian justice. Giving him a free pass to live with his Russian buddies is NOT justice and is not a deterrent for others who would also practice such treachery. Stop trying to save him, you Russian sympathizer.
I think you misunderstand, I’m just saying what kind of “asset” would he be? I’m making a disparaging comment against him.
Perhaps save some of those knee-jerks for the doctor
Where would be the fun in that?
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Fucking charge him with something. This is insane… If it’s not treason, it sure as hell is undermining the billions of dollars in aid were sending Ukraine. We’ve sent 76 billion dollars so far.
Yeah, if an unelected CEO can tell a democratically elected government what it can and can’t do we’re no better than medieval peasants who had to bow and scrape for the nobles’ favor
Vote with your wallet. If you hate him so much don’t buy anything from him. It’s a fair meritocracy, if you think you can run a better space satellite company you are welcome to try
Great parody account!
You know at SpaceX and Tesla, there is a layer of management between Musk and the actual production team, that does nothing but run interference. Their job is to make sure the companies stay running and moving forward, DESPITE, what Musk says.
That sounds like it was made up by somebody who is jealous of his intelligence and leadership skills
My dude, a rock wouldn’t be jealous of Musk’s “intelligence”
Then why are you?
Go back to X, Elon. Nobody wants you here.
I think it’s funny that Musk simps think peoppe are jealous when we criticize him. Honey, I wouldn’t trade places with Musk if you paid me. I already dealt with teenage insecurities, and I’d rather have average amounts of money and people who actually love me than a yawning void in my soul constantly sereking approval from adoring crowds. I want to be decent and useful to the world more than I want to be rich. And I’m not alone. You wanting to be Elon Musk doesn’t mean everyone does.
You people need to stop feeding the trolls. If you actually think this isn’t a satirical account after reading the other shit he has posted, then you yourself are likely insane.
Stop wasting your time, the only way to make them go away is to ignore them.
Bold of you to assume I took the time to read the other stuff he posted. And ignoring trolls doesn’t actually do much to discourage them, ime. So I’ll keep doing as I please, thanks.
“It’s a fair meritocracy…” I do not think those words mean what you think they mean.
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we’re no better than medieval peasants who had to bow and scrape for the nobles’ favor
It’s been like that for decades(centuries?). The rich do as they please and the rest of us are treated like livestock. It’s impressive citizens don’t revolt more than they do these days.
But they keep giving us beer and bread so we arre happy.
That won’t work forever.
Especially when the price of bread keeps rising faster than wages.
Stop trying to tell a private citizen and businessman what he can and can’t do with his own business
He got to where he is with government funding.
Turn off the tap. Now.
First of all he got there by being the best businessman in the world, lots a hard work and plucky stick-to-it-ive-ness plus a keen eye for innovation. Think about this. If he hadn’t used his space satellites to stop the Ukies, Putin could have launched the Nukies! Basically he saved the planet and this is the thanks you give him. No good deed goes unpunished
This parody tankie account is too close to the real thing to work. Leave some room for satire, broskie.
I don’t know what that is
lmao
Best business man in the world. Buys an unprofitable company for 40b, then runs it directly into the ground. Genius.
It’s part of a bigger strategy that you wouldn’t understand
Neither does he.
His brain is too big and powerful for lazy poors to keep up with his plans. He works in mysterious ways.
Strategically losing billions, bold plan cotton
The troll account is annoying when you’re crowding out other discussion.
I’m the only one bringing common sense to these discussions at all
He got where he is off the back of slavery in an emerald mine his father runs you twat
When you have a contract with the federal government it comes with stipulations. Don’t “private citizen” this. It’s not a mom and pop store.
But Starlink DIDN’T have a contract with the US government, DOD, or Ukraine government. That’s the point. And they went ahead and used it for guided munitions.
Which is a violation of the terms of service and not what anyone at SpaceX had intended.
Problem is, that’s exactly how they ended up being used!
You’re tracking that Starlink sells service directly to the US military for activities that aren’t exactly tickle parties right?
True, but didn’t Starshield happen after this stuff? I guess I need to relook at the timeline. But as I remember things, he started tossing starlink access at Ukraine, tried to get DoD to pay, they chose not to. Then he started to these games, and after that DoD started paying up. Starshield was announced a little bit after that.
Where do you draw the line? Should he also be allowed to sell his services to Russia? Should private companies from the US be allowed to sell arms to Russia?
Never mind that. Let’s suppose he can sell his services to whomever he likes.
What about the privacy implications? How did he know that specific attack was planned? Can he just listen in on any communication going across Starlink? I don’t think anyone should be okay with that.
Since he runs Starlink, he has a map of where every single Starlink receiver is located. Literally, a real time map with GPS coordinates.
Russia would kill to have that info.
However, musk also hack and jam proofed Starlink to help Ukraine too.
How did he know that specific attack was planned?
Ukraine asked him to extend Starlink coverage for the attack.
No conspiracy theory needed, they just told him.
I’m not sure where the line is but expecting a private citizen to provide vital defense infrastructure to your foreign allies and continually act in your best interests is clearly past it.
The issue is removing infrastructure on your own personal whims when it goes against what your own tax payers are paying for, especially when they have funded your company / companies. It’s obscene.
Except it wasn’t “removed”, he declined to “extend” it before getting paid by those tax payers.
Of course. That’s called capitalism and the free market. Don’t like it? Move to Venezuela
Nah, I’d rather attack the cancer that is capitalism at the source and work to rid the world of its scourge once and for all. Sorry you chose the loser’s side.
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Again, I’d rather stay here in the USA and make sure I spend every waking moment working to make sure we take the food out of your bowl specifically to give it to the lesser off and more deserving.
Die mad, irrelevant dinosaur.
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There’s currently sanctions on buying or selling a lot of things from Russia aren’t there?
The whole reason this happened is because he disabled Starlink satellites over Russia in order to help the Ukrainian war effort. He just refused to turn it on for a specific offensive operation in Crimea that Ukraine requested - claiming he wanted to avoid escalation. Him and the US government were in agreement during time. Remember the US did not want to give tanks and planes because of fear of escalation.
I don’t mean to try and put a damper on the 5 minute hate session but I wish people would make an effort to try and understand what is happening before they make all sorts of wild conclusions and statements.
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Why? I think capitalism’s a toxic system and he has no moral right to his wealth.
“Citizen” is the critical word here
“Ukraine” telling a “US citizen” what to do, are the critical words here.
Hes a US Citizen undermining the US Government
Is he? Did the US Government issue an order to attack Russian assets? Even Russian assets on Ukrainian soil? Even to support any Ukrainian effort to attack Russian assets?
So far it’s been a “we give Ukraine some stuff and intel, and let them do the fighting while keeping a semblance of plausible deniability”.
Sounds more like a direct involvement in the attack, would’ve been undermining the US Government.
I know it’s an anathema to most in the US but the government needs to step up and take Starlink and Space X off Musk for a fair price. He’s way too unstable to be trusted with tech that important.
A fair price would be musk in jail for his crimes.
I was gonna say $3.50, but jail works too.
Elon would want $4.20 cos he’s a fucking dolt
How about .420?
Loch Ness Monster 2024
The older I get the more socialist I am. Yeah, take it away from his dumb ass, but don’t keep it ffs. Make it employee owned. Make every business employee owned.
Make it a Co-op with government oversight and maybe security. Its too stategically important to be allowed market level independence.
This is how I feel about Starship. Amazing progress is being made and he’s going to fuck it all up before it ever has a real mission. It’s sad. World’s first fully reusable launch vehicle capable of building real shit in space like colonies and infrastructure and it had to be him that did it.
Did he really do it? I’m pretty sure that was the engineers, which Musk is not.
But he says big words about rockets on Twitter. That means he’s an engineer, right?
What I meant was it had to be him that became the figurehead. I want someone with the drive and passion for space exploration, not someone with the passion for profit. A humble engineer or scientist who exists only to expand their knowledge and with plenty of fascination about the universe, not this dollar store Tony Stark wannabe narcissistic blowhard.
I guess I’m shouting at clouds though, because that’s how the system is set up. People don’t start companies because they want to do something awesome. They start them to make money.
Those people are too busy working to become figureheads
As much as I hate Musk, I doubt something that ambitious would be tried without him or someone like him. Same with starting a fully EV car company when everyone thought we were just but ready for it. Yes the engineers are the ones who do the work, but it takes someone willing to risk a lot of money, and the ability to bring in more money, to make that stuff happen.
Elon didn’t start shit. He bought Tesla.
He bought a small dying company and turned it into the most valuable one they ever existed. He made the Tesla we know today.
He didnt start a fully EV car company, HE BOUGHT ONE.
Quit holding people on high regard based on their cult of personality.
He made the Tesla we know today, the Tesla we know today would not have existed without Musk, it likely would have died a small silicon valley startup that nobody had ever heard of.
Just because I hate him doesn’t mean I won’t give him credit for doing what he did.
I’m pretty sure someone at Tesla or SpaceX put the Twitter idea in his head so he would fuck off and meddle with something else and let them do their actual work instead of dealing with his stupidity, micromanaging and narcissism.
Folks at the Boring Co are just keeping their heads down hoping he forgets they exist
He borrowed a billion from it to buy Twatter. What happens the next time he needs money?
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What’s good for the goose is good for the gander. We’re still playing catchup in the steal and murder numbers compared to billionaires.
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Prison, certainly. This is a treasonous act.
I would love a SpaceX without Elon.
But the thing that made SpaceX what it is now is largely that it is not a government entity.
It’s his company that he built from the ground up, and the government doesn’t know what to do with stuff like satellites, that is best left to the free market
“How am I in this war?” Musk asked Isaacson. “Starlink was not meant to be involved in wars. It was so people can watch Netflix and chill and get online for school and do good peaceful things, not drone strikes.”
That’s a pretty glib way of looking at it.
Elon can’t be trusted with it, but NASA would just stall all progress on it for the next fifty years
All the downvoters should take a good close look at the cockup that is the SLS program
NASA just contracts everything out. I think NASA would be much different if they had something like SpaceX (and was funded properly).
NASA just contracts everything out. I think NASA would be much different if they had something like SpaceX (and was funded properly).
NASA gets so much funding for the SLS, which is so expensive, that NASA itself is saying it’s throwing money away. It’s US Congress routing tax payer funding to disastrously inefficient contractors, not to have an actually functional space program.
I mean if a person does anything directly affecting a war (for any side) I’d say that person is a wartime volunteer.
Wartime volunteers that have taken up arms are a absolutely viable target for military strikes.
Just saying 🤷♂️
So the US government is a viable target?
Anyone considering striking US likely realizes the fallout from that strategy though
Emphasis on “Fallout”.
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Also the US could probably out fight anyone else on a conventional level. Far more humiliating too.
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Iraq and Afghanistan had their militaries levelled in a matter of days. It’s the occupation that created problems
🎵 I don’t want to set the world on fire… 🎵
During the cold war, there were plenty of instances of fighting between us and soviet forces, not to mention the huge amount of proxy fighting done. Personally, I’m not interested in drawing up a sequel to the cold war.
I hate to say it, but we are likely already in the sequel.
Why though? There’s been plenty of hot and cold wars, plenty of proxy wars.
This isn’t special in that regard, except now using the propaganda talking points of view a fascist enemy is done without a hint of shame from the stooges who do it.
As I see it, we’re at a turning point. Either we continue a path of escalation, or we back down, either would be feasible given our current position, but that said current position isn’t somewhere we can stay. We either need to accept that sacrificing some global influence is necessary to avoid foreign wars, or that maintaining our current global influence inevitably requires putting soldiers behind our words.
This is a weird take… The war in Ukraine is largely being fought because Russia isn’t going to stop with Ukraine. We’re protecting our allies in Europe, and looking to prevent further escalation, not simply exerting influence on a far-away foreign war.
The escalating party is 100% the aggressing party that’s invading a sovereign nation. That’s Russia, not the United States.
I mean, unless you’re speaking as a Russian citizen? Perhaps I’m misunderstanding your point of view here.
This is the exact attitude I was trying to call out. We are absolutely escalating our participation in this conflict. Trying to strattle the line of participation, where nothing we do is our own fault, and neither are any of the consequences we face. Because I’m not sure how well you did in middle school geography, but the US is, in fact, not a part of Europe. This war has no direct impact on the US beyond the extent we choose to be involved.
Now if you view the benefits of involvement as greater than the risks, fine. That’s a perfectly coherent position. One I don’t agree with, but a rational position nonetheless. But to pretend our involvement is just a force of nature we have no control over? That’s just a bunch of excuses to support involvement without having to openly commit to a position of involvement.
Are you seriously saying we should just stand back and let Russia take Ukraine?
I don’t fucking care what happens in Ukraine
I think Neville Chamberlain had the right idea.
I know a lot of Jews who’d take issue with that.
For a lot of reasons, yes
Always has been
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Oh yeah, I don’t mean to say otherwise. It was more a rhetorical question to point out the nature of how these things always end up escalating.
Starlink is not providing an essential service to Ukraine. They do not have the right to expect SpaceX to cooperate with their military effort when SpaceX is a US company under dual-use rules to not unilaterally provide military connectivity to weapons systems to foreign nations.
Ukraine must do military procurement properly and go through the US government to get approval, not whatever this is. They used a civilian service for military purposes, so they are in breach of the terms of use of Starlink and should not be surprised when services degrades at SpaceX’s whims.
The law priorities the health of people, but Starlink isn’t meant for use like this, so this analogy is moot.
Are you sure you meant to respond to me?
If that comment was in error, I can only blame Jerboa for being really broken and unpolished lol
Any system capable of manipulating the outcomes of international conflict needs to become property of the government via eminent domain…especially if that system is used…especially if used by an entrepreneur operating without oversight.
Musk is a war criminal. This is a crime against humanity.
Elon is a Russian bitch just like the rest of the billionaires.
It seems like privatization is working out great for us 👍
If true, my respect for Musk just dropped a … well, none at all. It would be totally in character.
Make sure to save this for the next time that shitbird or one of his moron suckups tries to say he helped Ukraine. Fucker oughtta be treated the same as any Russian collaborator.
