- cross-posted to:
- Germany@europe.pub
- cross-posted to:
- Germany@europe.pub
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Is the proper response: Well shit.
Did you not realize that they performed incredibly well in the elections? Social media is how they will overthrow the last remaining democracies. France, UK and Canada are next. All the young folks are increasingly more conservative and within 2-6 years, it’s going to be game over.
We really should stop using the term “conservative” for what the self proclaimed “conservative” parties are doing. Because they don’t conserve anything. They do the exact opposite. They exploit and destroy.
I don’t disagree, but when one part of society uses word A and the other part uses word B that would only further increase polarization, which already is a serious problem. I think it’d be better it we continue using the name they use for themselves, but point out what a weird name it is for them. So we could tell them for example that we find it strange they consider themselves “conservative” parties because they don’t conserve anything. They do the exact opposite. They exploit and destroy.
The problem is that more simple minded people who are actually conservative, as they want to conserve society as it is, will easily fall for the propaganda and vote for a party that is out to destroy what they want to conserve.
The self proclaimed standing of a party is part of its propaganda. Unfortunately the media are complicit with the parties on perpetuating their propaganda, by calling parties by their chosen adjectives, rather than by what would be more fitting. Conservatives should rather be called “Destructives”, and in many countries, “Social Democrats” are rather Neoliberals, for they have long sold out social democracy to the highest bidder and now follow an extremist free market ideology, their only remaining difference to the “Conservatives” being not wanting to return to societal norms from 60 years ago.
Populist intentionally choose words that attract potential voters, they will continue to do that. But calling them out for not being real conservatives because they act different is definitely helpful.
The problem is that more simple minded people who are actually conservative, as they want to conserve society as it is, will easily fall for the propaganda and vote for a party that is out to destroy what they want to conserve.
The real problem is that “conserve society as it is” was always a lie, unless the “as it is” you’re talking about happened to be monarchy. Conservatism, as an ideology, was founded in support of monarchism. A society run by an aristocratic elite has always been the thing they’re trying to conserve.
The correct term is reactionary.
Just call it what it is. It’s fascist. It’s the fascist party. All of these - afd, maga, same unimaginative shit.
Inventing new terms is what these fuckers want. Remind them they’re not new and been wrong before.
It’s not a new term, it has been around for a few centuries now. People who want to revert change, go back to the perceived good old times. Fascist is overused these days, and I’d argue reactionary hits a nice descriptive middle ground between conservative (which they are not, any more) and fascist (which many of them aren’t yet). Hit them where they are, not where they move to
I do agree with and appreciate the nuance, it’s clear from your careful wording you understand conservatism by definition doesn’t have a cause to stand for, hence reactionary. It’s apt in a good faith discussion.
My problem is supplying ammunition for bad faith discussion. Like what “libertarians” are to conservatives. They’ll claim they’re not conservatives, they’re just libertarians. All the while supporting the same goals with a different name.
Not sure why you’re getting downvoted, maybe people just don’t like to hear it. You’re not wrong.
To add, these people generally have more kids, and raise them to be conservative. It’s depressing. It might take some severe hardship on people to shift left again? Not sure what that is, hopefully not another world War.
The shift left is not happening until theres a major (most likely violent) crisis. As it is, America will become Russia 2.0 and this will probably be the staus quo for a while.
No, I didn’t. I’ve been drowning in depression keeping up with what is happening in the US.
This is why I keep telling people we are fucked by focusing in increasing military power in europe even if it appears and is obviously needed. We are going to put all the power at the hands of insane lunatics ready to wage war and put people in ovens.
It’s happening in all countries in Europe. I think in mine we’ll have elections next month or something like that and the extreme right is at 2nd or 3rd position ready to take first or will join hands with another to win. It was so close already last time. No matter how many crimes all their members do and show up in the news every week.
It’s what the people want. Most people everywhere are ok and want homicidal narcissist and sociopathic people in charge of them.
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I have no trust in the current coalition to make that happen…
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If the government doesn’t fall like it does here regularly 😮💨
Best of luck to you and your country staying sane-ish a little longer.
They don’t even need to win elections, everyone was already discussing immigration because of propaganda & news (Messerattacke). They have set the agenda, this now is just more evidence of their success.
Sad.
Just looking at the people around me (mostly colleagues, I’m not friends with this kind of people) it’s no surprise, when just about anything triggers them to vote AfD. Some actual examples:
“We have a vegetarian day at the cafeteria now. Stupid Greens forcing me to not eat meat one day a week. I’m going to vote AfD next election.”
“They built a new bicycle lane on my way to work. Now I’m forced to stick to the speed limit because of all the bicyclists on MY road blocking me. It’s a straight street, I should be able to go 80 even though it’s inner city. I’ve always been going 80 there! Stupid Greens, I’m going to vote AfD next election.”
“Supplier X stopped issuing their bikini model calendar. Everything is forbidden nowadays! Noone ever cared for bikini model calenders, but the Greens want to forbid every little piece of fun. Stupid woke culture. I’m going to vote AfD.”
And let’s not forget that one boss who told me that my life-threatening nut allergy was woke nonsense, because back in his day “everybody just ate what’s on the table and noone died, but nowadays everybody has to feel special by making up things they won’t eat.”
They just want to go back to 1950s culture, when gay people, trans people, allergies, ADHD, autism, veganism, climate change and anything other than straight white dudes and straight white housewives “didn’t exist”, because how dare the world be more complex than a Rosamunde Pilcher movie.
They want to return to 1950s, but they will return to 1930s. And not only in Germany. Stupid people have no clue what dictators always do.
Specifically, 1939.
“When you’re accustomed to privilege, equality feels like oppression.” – Franklin Leonard
I’m genuinely sorry your boss said that to you, but it sounds so fucking ridiculous I laughed. Jesus. Imagine being so stupid that someone might die.
You know what the worst thing is? He wasn’t the only one by far. Later at a different company another Teamleader told me I have to go out to eat with everybody. When I said the restaurant isn’t save for me (lots of nuts on the menu), he just said I HAVE to come and that’s what the Epipen is there for. I complained to HR and the HR lady asked why I don’t just do a therapy against allergies. Told me about some esoteric bullshit that’s supposed to cure all allergies and advised me to do that so I can better fit in with the company culture.
This has to be the most toxic employer in Germany. I had some shit jobs, especially when I was younger, but this is insane.
I want to come throw hands on all these people for you!
Bavaria?
NRW. Rheinland, um genau zu sein. Hier gibt es auch seeehr viele “Wir haben das schon immer so gemacht”-Leute.
Rheinische Frohnatur halt 😉
Well, to bring some darker thoughts to the topic: Most fascist movements are also very, very inclined on their interpretation of darwinism, so… “weak” people dying off may for them be more a feature than a bug
Also highlights we don’t live in a meritocracy if this clown is in charge of others.
You guys gotta be more like America on the bike lanes one.
Just have crippling, insane traffic, where it takes you three hours to move five (5) city blocks (this has actually happened to me).
Suddenly, a new bike lane gets you across the city in 26 minutes.
It made the bike lanes very popular, haha.
As an American, I don’t think people will support bike lanes even then
The German mindset to capitulate in the face of challenges that cant be solved by doing how things where allways done (since kohl).
By god, nobody wants things like wealth and inheritance taxes to be done like way back when (when they existed).
Ok, unfair the majority of Germans wants them, but this great democracy continuously produces Governments for and by the 1% irrespective of your vote.
Plus two percent, a difference of one percent to second place and an error margin of two point five percent. Congrats.
Besides that, I really start to hate these reports. Weekly updates on the Sonntagsfrage are utterly lacking substance, fearmongering (to left leaning people) and reassurance (to AfD voters). Everything we do not need.
Also, the heads of most of the polling institutes are openly right leaning.
RTL and their head is more than just “right leaning” Remember the call? “We have to do everything in our power to destroy the greens and spd. Help the FDP and our other ally” Springer is such a huge problem. No one would be remorsed if the entire springer empire got sucked up by a black hole
In phone polls 4 years before the next election…
Dont get me wrong, this sucks, but its not what the germans actually voted for.
But they already performed very well in the last election.
Still shows you something you can’t see by asking your neighbours, colleagues and family. But I agree it doesn’t matter in a real way.
And stil the state refuses to ban them, refuses to arrest and sentence their leaders.
It will be Weimar 2.0 with liberals being either too incompetent or too unwilling to stop fascism.
Fascism is not stopped at the podium or in parliament. It is stopped with bullets and bombs. The longer you wait the more bullets and bombs it will take and the more lives it will cost. We need a new, this time thorough, denazification.
Liberal does not mean leftist outside of the USA. Liberal actually means what is called libertarian in the USA.
I have not called liberals leftist and never would. I’m not on that American brainrot.
in most contexts here ive heard “liberal” used to describe neoliberalism rather then leftism or libertarianism (though I know many conservatives in the US use it as a catch all for the left)
I’m American and I use the term “liberal” specifically to refer to neoliberals. I’m probably in the minority, though, especially given Fox News and GamerGate calling everything they don’t like “liberal”.
bullets and bombs
I think it’s enough to just do: arrests of leaders (and banning them from public speaking but for life) + breaking up the party + outlawing the party + banning people who decide to take up the mantle of/act as a declared proxy for the party and attempt to visibly pick up where they left off.
That last one I learned from my own country’'s current situation: in Romania, a crazy far right candidate came out of nowhere (on the wings of illegal undisclosed campaign donations) to win the first round, and as soon as that happened our mainstream far right party’s candidate started supporting him. Then they canceled the election because of the undisclosed donations (he literally declared 0 campaign spending!) so now, in the redo of the election, this other guy is basically running as his proxy and will likely try to appoint him PM if he wins.
Ideally arrests and executions will be enough. I think letting fascists live out their lives in prison is too dangerous. Too many political enemies have been released historically after government changes. Hitler himself didn’t even have to serve for life and was released early.
Weimar was a small civil war between soldiers who returned from WW1. That’s why both the left and the right had fighters. Where should the fighters who shoot the bullets come from now?
The fascists came to power because the elite feared that the communists could win. Otherwise, despite massive manipulation, the fascists never got an absolute majority.
There are many issues that other parties simply ignore. There would be far less voteres for the AfD if the other parties would listen. The AfD started with the demand that the rules about euro stability shouldn’t be ignored. That’s not a fascist position.
The other parties are not taking up AfDs made up causes because they are made up.
For example:
A sack of potatoes falls.
AfD: Foreigners are causing the sacks to fall! We must gas them! And the jews!
Other parties: This is so stupid it doesn’t even warrant a response.
General public: but the foreigners!!111!1!!!11 and the potatoes!!1! I am outraged!!!111!!!
Unfortunately, the other parties are very well taking up the Nazis’ lies. The Nazis are playing the political establishment like a fiddle.
To stick with your example of the potato sack, the established parties do just jump the Nazi bandwagon and parrot their narrative in a less extreme manner, like “Illegal immigrants kicking over potato sacks is a severe problem, we need to protect our potato sacks by border controls and increased deportations.”
Just as one AfD politician remarked last year, (after the election in Thuringia, if I recall right) the AfD is ruling without actually being in the government.
This reflects American politics as well.
I think the problem can be summed up as poll driven politics.
It’s a feedback loop, they do focus on a topic some opinion poll has shown to be somewhat popular, the resulting exposure increases popularity, which reflects in the polls, which leads to increased political focus on the topic…
In America at least, this is as a direct result of corporate media and money in politics both controlling the narrative. None of this was naturally occurring.
Not that different in Germany. The biggest difference in the media landscape, the pretty large public broadcasters aren’t really a difference, because their governing bodies and leadership positions are stuffed with (ex) politicians and their relatives.
I don’t think that you make a good point if you yourself make up your point. Please quote the AfD to avoid all doubt.
Of course. Here is an AfD quote:
Sieg Heil! Gas the jews!
Hope that makes it clearer.
Don’t you see that false quotes undermine your position?
But it isn’t false. They are literal nazis and say literal nazi things.
Several offices for the protection of the constitution of the German Länder (they are a kind of anti-extremist intelligence services, in case you don’t know) have found them to be “assuredly right-wing-extremists”, which is the worst possible classification the law recognises.
Again. Literal, actual, nazis.
Yes. That’s why you should quote what they literally say. It’s not a quote if you write what you think they say.
But starting and organizing a violent opposition seem like so much effort. And I really have to finish some shows I’ve been watching.
Using bullets and bombs would make the rest not better than the fascists, so lets not use them.
We don’t need to be tolerant to the intolerant.
No it wouldn’t, it would make you smart enough to speak to the fascists in the only language they understand. Words don’t work against fascists because they don’t care what words mean. Better to defend yourself now while you still can.
War and violence have existed long before fascism. It’s not their invention or monopoly.
True. But I don’t want the world to be that bad. I want to live without war and violence.
Once they take power, the only thing that can stop them is bullets and bombs. And Fascists do have a nasty habit of shooting first, if you let them.
AfD is using fascist manipulation using propaganda (always putting immigrants and immigrant attacks in the spotlight) to gain power and discriminate immigrants even more, causing more retaliation which in turn makes people give the AfD even more power.
In a tolerant society we should not be tolerant of such intolerance.
I’m an American. I really hope the German masses can learn this lesson before it"s too late.
But you guys need to counter the hateful messaging against immigrants with an equally effective message against the people with power/money, otherwise, fascism is likely to win in the long run against neoliberalism, as we just saw in America after our long-term experiment with neoliberalism, which really kicked off in the 1980s with Ronald Reagan and Margaret Thatcher.
In the 1990s, the American Democrats felt so defeated after having lost big time to Reagan and Bush Sr., so Bill Clinton decided the Democrats cannot “unilatterally disarm” and must start taking corporate money. This acceptance of corporate money led to their idiology becoming the same as Reagan’s idiology, and then the Republican party being bith opportunists and contrarians, took advantage of that situation by shifting further and further right (see: the ratchet effect), until they openly became fascists.
I’m not too familiar with German politics, but if anything I said applies, then heed my warning.
But you guys need to counter the hateful messaging against immigrants with an equally effective message against the people with power/money, otherwise, fascism is likely to win in the long run against neoliberalism […]
This is exactly it. However, I am not too optimistic about centrist politicians/media/society coming to that conclusion. We are complacent and scared and would rather keep our heads in the sand and blame minorities instead of addressing the underlying structural issues.
David Kriesel is amazing! Didn’t know about this. Very useful.
Yes, he’s great data scientist. He has more stuff on his webpage, e.g. bias analysis of the different polling institutes, be sure to check it out if you like!
So CDU is just AfD in disguise…
*In an opinion poll
I mean lets not confuse an opinion poll with the truth. These things regularly get things a couple points off. In fact that’s the norm.
That’s what people have been saying for years and yet the AfD is already the second strongest in the last election…
a couple points off
Yes so they’re first or a close second, that’s hardly better.
They were quite accurate the last few elections though… Maybe 1% off, but that’s it.
Why hasn’t the German government shut them down? I thought they had anti-fascist laws on their books.
There are multiple factors at play.
- The government is incompetent and the Nazis are playing them like a fiddle by setting the public agenda aided by incompetent and complicit media. (That the Nazis’ economic agenda, more money for the rich, isn’t all that differnet from that of the established parties helps with this, because this renders them unable of countering the Nazis’ lies about foreigners being to blame for the economic hardships of the masses without harming themselves)
- The government consists of greedy, power hungry bastards who think they can use the Nazis to their advantage. (Some lie to themselves that they can steal votes from them by parroting their rhetoric, some use the spectre of cooperating with the Nazis to pressure other parties into cooperation with them instead)
- The government consists of opportunistic cowards who are afraid of angering the Nazi voters and/or losing the court case for a ban of the Nazi party.
Both the US and Germany want to return to their fascist roots it seems
Decades of capitalist decay and anti-communist propaganda will do that.
Don’t forget about Russia. It is already there and leading in its effort to turn some countries into the same political system, making thereby these countries their puppets aka satellites.
Mass immigration into a housing shortage in order to push down wages, artificially invert the Phillips curve, and prop up housing prices will as well. I assume rising support for the afd is mostly the young.
https://tradingeconomics.com/germany/housing-index
https://recruitonomics.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/07/DE3-Net-migration-1024x565.png
The see the US and realize it’s possible to do it all over again.
This is such a U.S. way of reporting things.
74% of people don’t want to be part of AfD.
One out every four people you meet being a literal nazi is tough tho
US: what about one out of every two?
More like 1 in 3, many people didn’t or couldn’t vote
sadly, it’s basically expected that about 15-30% of the population are far-right xenophobes. the question is how well they can be mobilized.
I disagree. The nazis leading the polls is very disturbing.
It’s not. 74% are also not working on convincing disgruntled voters that AfD is just a shitsandwich and not an alternative that would improve anything. 26% for a single party that didn’t exist for long is huge and just shows how sick Germans are of the usual cdu/csu/spd/green/fdp bullshit.
The infuriating thing is that AfD voters would probably be better off with dieLinke.
Ive really been trying but every time theres a worse quagmire of information to wade through. “Like literal Trump fans. Jews own everything. Democracy is cool and all but really… sometimes we need other measures.” Theres just no way to talk back. Or even interact when in comes to politics.
Take care of the nazi problem before they take care of you. You already know how that works. Stop allowing them to broadcast nazi propaganda as if it was news.
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It’s similar in the UK currently. The UK’s equivalent of AfD is Reform UK who are apparently the leading party in the polls (source):
Reform UK in front on 25%, Labour on 23% and the Conservatives on 20%, with the Lib Dems on 16% and Greens on 10%
The next UK election must be held in about four years. The only elections this year will be by-elections (notorious for elevating micro-parties due to protest votes) and local government elections (where Reform has done poorly, since they don’t really have more than a handful of candidates who aren’t local cranks and Nazis). Where I live, the local-government protest votes has swung seats from Labour to the Greens, and to a lesser extent, the LibDems; the right hasn’t had much success.
It should also be noted that the UK press is very rightwing and is constantly promoting Fromage.
True, it’s a long time until the next UK general election. Maybe Reform’s vote will suffer before then. Alternatively the local elections and by-elections could be a boost for them, I dunno.
Anyway, maybe we should have proportional representation in the UK. Even if Reform had 25% of the vote and therefore 25% of the seats in parliament, that would mean that 75% of parliamentarians wouldn’t be Reform members.
Our current system allows a party with minority support (potentially Reform in the future) to win a majority of parliamentary seats. In 2019, the Conservatives won 44% of the vote, which gave them 56% of seats. Last year, Labour won 34% of the vote, which gave them 63% of seats.
Many reform voters are old men. Many will die between here and 4 years with the state of the NHS
Germany should have actually denazified instead of the joke they did. Also should have reunited the two germanys instead of what happened which was basically a west German conquest of east Germany contributing greatly to its impoverershment.
Honest question, what was wrong with the denazification that was carried out? Did they have any historical example to compare to?
Think about it like this: What do you do if everyone is at least complicit? While the soviets excluded the old elites from their new regime, the west focused more on reintegrating them. That being said, both sides were willing to turn a blind eye if you where qualified enough and needed for the continued function of society.
So for example the head of the neurological society was a doctor who experimented on brains of executed prisoners and children. And unfortunately this was the rule, not the exception.
The fact that it didn’t happen? That a lot of the very few who got actual sentences (less than those who worked just at Auschwitz)were pardoned before their time was up. That all levels of the post war German government was filled with nazi party members. That it was quickly abandoned even in the limited and performative form it existed it to unite to fight “the communist threat”. I don’t need a historical example of a successful de radicalization in order to say this one didn’t happen and its a myth it did.
Ok I get what you mean. But what was the realistic alternative when (like another poster mentioned) everyone is partly complicit and society has to be rebuilt? Who can the chief surgeon of the hospital be replaced with? Everyone professionally competent in any position of esteem has to have been at least partially complicit or compliant with the previous regime. Historical context is important because I think it is a near impossible task. Pol pot killed everyone, de-Baathification created more of a mess (both efforts to weed things out later, presumably using Germany as a bad example).
Jeah wondering the same, like Germany was already doing a lot more compared to other countries with previous facist governments
The so called Schreibtisch Nazis werent punished eventhough they were just as part of the holocaust, helping it moving and working, as the once not in an office.
East germany, did it even worse imo. The soviets recruited not just scientists and some spies. They recruited Gestapo and SS members, helped them shred their past and unpunished recruited them for the SaSi. Also not teaching it “our people did this and we have to make sure it doesnt happen again” but “we were the victims and didnt have anything to do with the nazis”
And then add a butchered integration. Butchering and slaughtering the rest of wealth from east germany in the 90s. Fertal ground for those types of idiological spreaders that came from the west. And now we see their flower bloom… And ugly smelling brown rotting rotfruit
Many of those aren’t real votes but “protest” support. Very dumb imo. They’re hoping its a wakeup to the other parties but it really just emboldens the afd.
Please look at the US and what’s happening here right now.
A significant portion of Trump’s voters in 2016 were protest anti-establishment voters and they’ve been converted into full on Fascist voters in the 8 years since then.
Nah I don’t buy it. Nazis voting for nazis know what they are doing. AfDs plan is clear, like project 2025 was and their voters like what they see and should be treated and handled accordingly.
Okay well in German and I know some of these idiots. It’s true. Of course some are literally Nazis. You see the same thing in the US as well. Don’t take my reply as defending these people.
Are they dumber than the parties that didn’t get the message?
Can confirm they’re generally quite dumb.
