Props to the movies that shout the “Loose!” command
As I understand it, that’s still not very historically accurate. It was not really a thing for archers to nock and loose together like they do in the movies.
Never really made sense to me, loose all the arrows at once and then give a break between volleys? Gives everyone a chance to hide behind their shield, and then advance when it’s clear. Unless volleys are perfectly timed between multiple rows of archers.
Random arrows flying constantly never gives the enemy a chance to feel safe since it’s a constant barrage, and there’s no wasted time for the archers needing to wait for the command to fire.
Archers were strategic weapons, not the main crux of killilng. They were used to do things like keeping an enemy division pinned down so that your cavalry can move around them or one of your own divisions can reach a more advantageous position. A well placed concentrated barrage could force an enemy to move in a direction that is more advantageous to you, etc…
They weren’t the primary means of killing people. They were the means of steering the battle where the general wanted it to go.
That’s an oversimplification. Skilled archers, especially in numbers, are a force to be reckoned with. For example:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Agincourt
Or think of horse archers. The mongols used them to great effect, and the Romans lost 7 legions against them, despite their testudo supposedly being next to invincible against projectiles
Volleys do have their place, but mostly as a way to open the battle, and at long range. You are correct that that can often be used to provide breathing room for troop movement. However, once the fighting starts, archers usually start picking individual targets and fire at will
Yes. There’s no doubt that the English longbows were a force to themselves. They were lethal in piercing armour but they were still used in generally the same manner. To open up the battle by forcing the enemy to take a defensive stance and “thinning the herd” (so to speak) before your own infantry engages their forces.
Once the infantry engaged however, you didn’t want to be raining down arrows on your own men and so the purpose of the archers largely changes to a completely different purpose; controlling the flow of battle with strategic use of volleys.
And yes…the Mongols changed everything with their horse archers. There’s a reason a good part of the population is descended from Genghis Khan…
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That’s what a hammer is for, nerd.
I prefer a spear and magic helmet.
Always a classic as well.
Why not both?
Quite right and why make your fastest, best archers wait for your slowest ones?
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I have shot a longbow, you can be pretty accurate given the target is a large group of people. Sure, I can’t realistically hit that guy there with the red hat. But I can probably got one of the guys near him.
If all the guys have armor and shields, the chances of hitting anyone in a spot that matters is a lot snaller
Well yeah, this is why you shoot more than 1 arrow.
Yeah, real warfare isn’t a good spectator sport. It’s chaotic, difficult to understand what’s going on, things take way longer or way shorter to happen than would make sense for a film, and it’s nothing like the orderly battles shown to us by Hollywood. The fog of war is a real thing. But that’s why they do it, because if they did it realistically it wouldn’t be very fun to watch.
Except if the movie is an anti-war one.
Yes indeed. Generation Kill is the only thing I’ve seen that got close to reality. I was in a unit that did exactly what was shown in that show, and for the most part they nailed it. They showed the confusion, stupid orders, lack of proper communication, the constant fatigue, and the crazy shit that just happens out of nowhere when you have a bunch of 18-20 year old testosterone rage machines running around with serious hardware.
This makes me want a chaotic locked wide shot of a old battle for at least a minute, to take it in
Actually, it worked pretty much exactly this way in the first stages of battle.
In the opening moves of a medieval battle, archers were essentially like the “creeping fire” that they used in World War 1; it’s purpose is to keep the enemy immobile behind their shields and unable to advance as fast as they would like. Your army can’t rush to take an advantageous position if they’re constantly having to stop and hide under their shields.
In WW1, in the Somme especially, the artillery would lay down what they called “creeping fire” to keep the enemy huddled in their trenches while their own soldiers advance behind the wall of firepower. Archers basically played the same role.
Strike?
“But I came here to win :(”
Or that they’re holding the bow drawn for a long period of time, waiting for the order to “fire”.
Long bows averaged a 200lb draw weight. Try holding that for 5 minutes.
Archers of the day:
Literally - you can pick out English longbowman bodies from the shape of their skeletons
Now I’m imagining a swole skeleton with buff bones
It’s mostly their twisted spine, as far as I’m aware.
You just have to ruin everything, don’t you?
I believe there are spurs to one side and right sided increases in density. But that article was a decade ago.
I “fire” traditional recurve bows and honestly it ends up being a lot of core, back, and your front side shoulder, but this image is funnier.
I guess also another thing that gets me is when they are fire from the hip, with no anchor point. You draw back the bow to the same spot every time, then move your bow hand to aim. Radically changing how you draw, while hitting precision shots at varying range is like John Whicking archery, but nearly everyone with a bow in movies can do it. And they almost never wear gloves on a bow that has to be hundreds of pounds of draw to go through armor. How are your fingers not worn to bone?
Also arrows are pretty custom depending on draw weight, tip weight, draw length, and there are various types. Where do these perfect arrows you need all come from, hrmmm Legolas?
I am now realizing I took this meme way too seriously, but I’ve already typed it up, so here we are.
Keep going I’m almost there.
I’m very into it
I never blamed the archer on the walls of Helms Deep. Waiting for the enemy to get all the way up to your walls was dumb enough, but waiting while having drawn your bow for what must’ve felt like ages for a human archer, is fucking rediculous. Terrible leadership.
You don’t want your archers to be excausted before the battle even starts, just so you can look really unbothered on top of your wall.
I agree, but it’s obviously done for the tension in the movie. It wouldn’t be as exciting, if the archers were just chillin’ while the Uruk-hai were charging. 😄
I admire you for holding the archery in LOTR to a high standard of realism even when the films feature a giant flying and levitating eye.
It’s a fantasy world, but archery there still works just like in real life.
Fiction only really works when it takes itself seriously. If they just don’t follow any rules or logic then you know there’s no reason to care about what’s happening, because the author didn’t. In LotR the archery follows the logic from out world. Yes, there’s also magic and stuff, which all follows consistent rules in the universe. The magic does not effect the rules of archery. Maybe elves can be more agile with their bows, but it should still be grounded in the rules of their universe.
Versimilitude is important. Self consistency. Just because you introduce one unrealistic element doesn’t mean everything else that is unrelated to it should be thrown out the window, too. The existence of a magical evil spirit entity doesn’t change how nonmagical humans would interact with everyday physics.
I know that modern bows with the radial cam thing have different hold vs draw requirements.
Not being a bow-knower, do the other sorts (long, recurve, etc.) Not have a similar thing that can happen?
Short answer: no, they don’t.
Modern compound bows use that cam to lessen the power needed to hold.
Older bows are like holding a spring extended, the further back, the greater the force needed.By modern I take it you mean compound bows. No other types of bow have that. The force you need to pull back is at its maximum when at full draw. The exact scale of 0-100% through the draw varies with different bow designs, material and even age as it can permanently deform with repeated use.
Loose!
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Nocked em
Still incorrect. You wouldn’t have archers sitting there pulling thier bows getting tired until ordered to release
Who said anything about holding the bow nocked all the time?
Generally they would yell “DRAW!” And the soldiers would nock their arrows and take aim, then they’d yell “LOOSE” to release the arrows in one big salvo.
Where did you hear this? There’s so little information on archers through history.
I can’t cite a specific source since I was researching the subject for a fantasy novel I was writing at the time, and I’m not even sure the material I was reading was in English, but I remember the author was making a comparison to Roman legionnaires throwing their Pila synchronously to maximise their impact/psychological effect. And it made sense to me since every soldier only had two to carry.
Apparently shooting them in single massive salvos would force their enemies to crowd into one another (they’d have to push someone else into the path of a Pila to avoid one that’s coming at them) which devastated their morale.
Loose!
Begin!
Later…Stop!
i usually complain to the wife when horrible tactics are used in medieval battles.
like… why is everyone always doing a full frontal assault, have the wrong weapons, not use fire appropriately, never flank, use cavalry inappropriately…
miltary tactics in movies is usually abhorrent.
I loved the battle of Winterfell, where everyone took up defensive positions OUTSIDE THE CASTLE WALLS.
And then charged in to total darkness
Against monsters that turn corpses into monsters
That battle caused a mass-extinction event among the Total War community.
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Frontal cavalry charge without any follow up
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Siege engines positioned outside the fortifications against a mobile enemy
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Projectile forces unsupported outside the fortifications
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Melee infantry inside the castle, watching and picking their noses
My wife told me to shut up multiple times during that episode as I was screeching like a monkey. The wrong side won that battle that night.
I was so mad about those catapults. I’m still mad. That battle was just completely unforgivable.
It’s not like they didn’t HAVE consultants on retainer for this series already. Give me a break!
I need to go lie down now.
There there. We will recover, brother. 😔
I guess they kinda forgot to give a shit about the show they were producing.
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I mean by that point they had made so many other stupid decisions, I think it was just in character for them to do that.
Terrible line discipline too, they broke formation immediately.
Did they at least have chicken?
I take it you are a Total War player?
i really want to like total war, but it just isnt for me :(
i do play a lot of tactics and strategy games tho <3
I’ve really enjoyed Total War: Three Kingdoms. It’s one of the best imho
Given the fact that any language used in such a movie is going to be wildly unlike the language spoken in the time and place of the movie, I think that’s a mild anachronism
Old English / Norman French etc would be practically incomprehensible to anybody.
There was an interesting TV show called Barbarians a few years ago where all the Romans spoke Latin but with Italian accents but they had the Germanic barbarians speaking modern German. Not sure if that would please anybody.
If you were commanding a mass of archers “Spaff!” was the correct command.
The best part was when they said “ITS SPAFFFIN’ TIME” and spaffed all over those guys.
“So I started spaffing”
“Ready your bows!”
“Nock!”
“Mark!”
“Draw!”
“Loose!”
“Nock! Nock!”
“Who’s there?”
“Mark!”
“Mark who?”
Mark Oni, inventor of the wireless telegraph!
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Guy named Mark: “What?” *gets shot*
Whoever decided to call it “Draw” instead of “Tighten” should be loosed out of a cannon. Into the sun.
Yeah they would just spaff all over the enemy, multiple times.
Step enemy, help I’m stuck in the dryer…
wow I’m glad that changed
Well, this is going to bug me for the rest of my life.
Thanks.
for the haters :
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volley_fire#Bows
The co-ordination and timing could probably be resolved with musical instruments, which were used to relay orders, messages etc.
EDIT : Also, what did OP expect, for all the characters to speak Old English?
“Loose” works. As in “Draw!” … “Loose!”.
Release?
What a macabre rhythm game.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snare_drum#History
Before the advent of radio and electronic communications, the snare drum was often used to communicate orders to soldiers.
Always has been
Beat (the) Saber?
Yeah, or a sequence of “nock, draw, fire/loose/shoot” commands. Warbows cannot be held that long ffs.
More likely they didn’t shoot in volleys at all. When you can only hold the bow for a second or two even with lifelong training you can’t really have volleys.
Longbow maybe not but shortbow, recurve, etc can be held for a while if you’re willing to sacrifice accuracy.
How far apart does a group shot of arrows have to be before it’s considered separate shots v a volley?
Yeah, that’s a point I tried to make, sorry for not being precise enough.
Here’s a great video of a well-trained longbowman shooting 160 and 210lb longbows (jump to 8 minutes). There is zero chance he’s “holding” the draw.
Why not? It just won’t be as tight as in movies
We can have a rain of arrows then, right?
They wouldn’t shoot arrows up into the air, like in movies, because then you lose all the power of the arrow. They would be fired as direct as possible to give the arrow the most speed and thus the highest chance of piercing armour.
You’d be shooting around 40-50 degrees for a 250yd shot. You want the best ballistic trajectory you can without sacrificing distance. Arrows, like bullets, travel in an arc so while they wouldn’t shoot directly up they would shoot at a fairly high angle for anything past 50 yds or so.
Depends how far away the target is. Done some long range shooting before and sometimes you really do shoot up in the air because unless you aim up at 30-45° the arrow isn’t going to go far enough.
Yes, hence the “as possible”. I just mean, they wouldn’t fire into the air like they do in movies at like 70+ degrees.
So, it wpuld be a drizzle of arrows then
Last time I checked, rain drops didn’t come in volleys.
But, well, that was weeks ago, maybe it changed.
Something I dislike in movies is when a movie is set in a non-English-speaking country, but all the characters are speaking English. I would rather have the characters speak the proper language for the country, with English subtitles. But I guess the movie execs have calculated that subtitles will make the movie less profitable.
Even worse in my opinion is when they use a generic British accent as a stand-in for literally any time and place in history. Ancient Rome? British accent. Ancient Greece? Also British accent. Ancient Persia? British accent again! Ancient Egypt? You guessed it! British accent! Even when the actors aren’t even British, the accent is. It makes no sense. It’s lazy and arrogant.
If I had a billion dollars, I’d make the most painstakingly realistic movie about Samurai in feudal Japan, and have all Japanese actors using a SoCal Chicano accent. Or maybe a hyper realistic Viking epic with a full Nordic cast, but they all talk like surfer bros.
The audience needs to be forced to see how insulting that shit is.
a hyper realistic Viking epic with a full Nordic cast, but they all talk like surfer bros
Jarl! My dude! We totally viking’d the shit out of that Irish monastery! It was fucking rad!
“Duuuuude… King Ælla’s a total boner. We gotta roll up on Northumbria and fully hack these posers to bits, brah. Then maybe, y’know, hit the mead hall and get wasted with some totally rad shield maidens.”
I swear to Odin, I would make this movie and only release a few short trailers with no dialog in them. Just brilliant cinematic shots of action, scenery, all the super authentic costumes and customs, and get some historians to endorse it (I know a few who would love the joke and the chaos). Then BAM, hit the audience with the most ridiculous shit ever.
Yeah! You gotta lull them into suspension of disbelief.
I’d invest some money into this. Someone has to be brave enough to write the script.
I would partner with a historian friend of mine to write it. I’m good with dialog, and he could keep it authentic. Write a rough draft like a normal script, then go back and fine tune all the dialog to surfer bro without changing anything else.
All the Nordic women would speak in Valley Girl.
Yeah I can understand speaking English and avoiding subtitles, but there are basically three options for accent:
- American, with some allowance for “urban” vs “country”
- Not American - English
- Evil - Russian or German, depending
The English accent is often used for evil empires too, eg Star Wars.
Also lots of evil mastermind types in spy movies and whatnot. They also like to eat while being evil, which I have a whole theory about.
There are a lot of interesting discussions around the use of food in movies. Even ones that aren’t directly about food.
Regular food intake is critical for our survival so it makes sense that it takes a large social role.
As a general rule, making and sharing food is considered “good”.
- “Everybody eats when they come to my house.” - Cab Calloway
- “You can get anything you want, at Alice’s restaurant.” - Arlo Guthrie
Taking and consuming food is “bad”.
- “Get in my belly!” - Fat Bastard
- “Mind if I have some of your tasty beverage to wash this down with?” - Jules
The exception is when food is offered. In that case, graciously accepting the food is also good.
- ET and Sloth (from Goonies) accept the candy.
How does Valentine serving Sir Galahad McDonalds on a silver platter in Kingman Secret Service fit into that?
I’ll take a stab at it but I don’t remember that movie well so I had to re-watch the clip.
I’ll start by reiterating that the above stuff is generalizations. Some authors ignore them and some intentionally break them. I thin Kingsmen falls into the latter category.
The movie is full of class shibboleths and makes a point of dissociating etiquette from kindness or morality.
To start with, it’s rude of Valentine to offer McCdonalds. There’s an expectation of generosity towards guests and McDonalds certainly doesn’t meet that expectation in that sort of setting.
Sir Galahad’s response is that of a perfect guest. He doesn’t argue with his host or call him out. Instead he accepts what is offered and humbly supports Valentines implication that it’s the height of epicurean delight.
The larger context is to set up a contrast between Valentine and Eggsy. While booth violate high-class etiquette rules, Valentine does it out of aggression and selfishness and Eggsy does it to save the world.
Evil - Russian or German, depending
Or just vaguely Eastern European. Basically, do your hammiest Bela Lugosi impression, and you’ll have a bright future as Human Trafficker #1 in all the best shaky-cam action schlock Hollywood has to offer.
Where does Australian English fit in?
I would pay to see both of those.
No joke I’d watch that Viking epic for the lolz
Now I just need to secure about a hundred million dollars.
It doesn’t fit a lot of movies, but some movies start in the foreign language and then switch to English
I liked the solution used in Inglorious Bastards, all the Germans and the French spoke English because all the Americans were so bad at speaking German and French.
This was great to watch in The 13th Warrior.
I don’t mind this. I also don’t mind watching a movie in a non-English language so long as there are subtitles (Pan’s Labyrinth was awesome).
What I dislike are movies/series that decide to include a conversation in a different language without providing subtitles.
I hate this. Spending the next 5-10 minutes searching the internet to find a complete script of a show just so I have a complete understanding of what’s going on is annoying, not fun.
Yeah. What’s the point of this exactly?
“Hang on, lemme exclude you from this bit of the story real quick…”
?!
oh man youd hate the star wars holiday special. wookiee is spoken for a good chunk of the film and there are no subtitles
Everyone hates the Star Wars holiday special
I think it is OK if the foreign language is just spoken for a few seconds and the protagonists are not supposed to understand the language.
They’re made for an American audience, who are generally afraid of non-English languages
Also generally terrified of reading
It’s true. I’m terrified of reading this thread right now.
WHY ARE THERE WORDS ON MY SCREEN?!
Or even worse, having to dub a movie, and the lip flaps are not matching up with the mouths. CinemaSins will give an infinite amount of dings for that.
The movie execs know about poor literacy rates :(
When I was a kid I saw The Longest Day and loved that all the Germans spoke German.
German in US movies has a wild array of quality levels.
The best ones are all from native German speaking actors. Movie actors don’t need native proficiency since the script is written out for them. The accents are really hard to nail down though and native speakers often have some regional dialect that second language learners almost never pick up.
Mac Steinmeir nails it in Saving Private Ryan and he’s Bavarian. Christopher Walz speaks flawless German. His French and Italian sound perfect to me but native speakers consider him “pretty good for a foreigner”. He’s Austrian.
Christian Slater has a very clear accent in Heathers but he’s not supposed to be a native German speaker.
Often times, I think of movies or stories as the story teller as translating for the audience. You don’t watch Troy and think it’s odd the characters are speaking English.
It’s acceptable to complain if the work is nonfiction and meant to be for education.
You don’t watch Troy and think it’s odd the characters are speaking English.
I get it. But movies that try to be realistic get extra points from me. Props to Apocalypto for having the actors speak in Yucatec Maya. (even though the movie and director have problems in other ways.)
Nothing I love more than multilingual movies where different groups speak different languages.
Language barriers (and overcoming them) is such a huge part of everyday life for much of the world’s population.
I never gave it a single thought. But now I have been cursed with this knowledge and will fly into a fury every time I hear it now.
But thanks anyway.
Archers… PEW PEW
pfew pfew!
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One of a few movies that could’ve used a “Fire!” was the intro of Robin Hood: Men in Tights (fire arrows, get it?), AND THEY DON’T EVEN DO IT!
