I have a better alternative: invest in viable alternatives to driving! expand protected bike lanes, build the damn high speed rail, more trains, trams and bus lines. One more asphalt lane for cars wont solve traffic problems :)
Lol goodbye tesla if that happens
China isn’t our friend. The whole ‘make it more financially appealing for the world to not war’ is not working. China isn’t influencing the world to be decent and at peace. They’re Putin’s allies and therefore our enemies.
Yeah China feeling more emboldened to invade Taiwan and talking about wanting to send in troops to gain experience in Ukraine shows they are looking to fill in the power vacuum left by the US and become US 2.0.
More like Russia. 2.0
The old American playbook was to ally with some local elites and then use media, secret service and economic support to bring them into power. Military force and hardcore sanctions were a tool used, if that did not work.
Russia prefers to use military force to force other countries into doing what they want.
China seems to work mainly with economic pressure, corruption and secret servcie work to set up favroable local elites. Their media game is not as good as the US, but TikTok is a clear sign that they are working on it. So far hard force is pretty rarer.
To me China looks a lot more like the old US playbook. They know the Russian one is not as good, as they saw European Empires collapse by using it.
No, absolutely not like Russia 2.0 The Chinese are taking a completely different approach to the Russians. The fact that people still think the Chinese are stupid is unbelievable…
The thing is, if Trump wants to kill Canada’s role in US car manufacturing, then it will cost him the car markets in Mexico and Canada. If there’s no jobs here to protect, then we’ll just drop the tariffs on Chinese EVs. (This is speaking like 20 years down the road). We’ll all be driving Chinese cars in that scenario. The tariffs are a total lose-lose situation, so dumb.
Replacing nazi cars with slave labor cars is a pretty fucked up idea.
Cars factories are heavily automated. Manual labor is barely a factor in their cost. China gives state subsidies for EVs and has a far stronger local supply chain.
As much as I hate Elon, this is a terrible idea. Cheap Chinese trash mobiles built by Uyghur slave labor are not the answer.
How about we build cars in Canada instead?
Except they aren’t trash, they’re better than Teslas that’s for sure.
They are still data hungry, surveillance machines that are allways online and gps tracked. We need cars without that kinda shit built in.
There has been talks about forcing Chinese cars to come over disconnected. Every new car is a surveillance machine. The western brands will not be asked to disconnect anything and it will probably be illegal to do so yourself, so Chinese cars might be an actual win in that regard.
American car company secretly send your driving data to your insurance company so they can squeeze more out from you for any minor reason they see fit. There’s no reason canada insurance company won’t do that. Scared about chinese car collecting your data is kinda missed the point, you should have stronger data protection instead.
I’de rather China have my data than an company over here. What are they gunna do with it that would affect me?
that’s exactly what got us in this mess in the first place.
What mess? American Imperialism / Capitalism imploding on itself?
A foreign power having far, far too much control over our economic possessions. Information is a resource; what they do with it is inconsequential, we have to stop giving it away to people simply because they’re our ‘trade partners’ right now.
So a direct consequence of Usamerican capitalism/Imperialism, got it.
Correlation attacks, China is king of hoovering up data.
Overly dramatic example: you are in the armed forces, you have a TikTok account, you post a bunch of shit that shows you are in the armed forces. You get deployed for some covert fuckabout and are told to leave your phone at home. You turn off your phone, pick up 3 of your buddies in your Chinese EV and drive to the base/airport/sea port. Dozens of people do this and by seeing the pattern China knows that a bunch of armed forces are being told to quietly deploy.
A less dramatic example might be figuring out where politicians are by knowing where their employees are.
Nobody hoovers up more data than the US.
Remember when Elon remotely unlocked that cybertruck recently and accessed the cameras?
We have roughly three million ways to say “US bad” right now, and you pick a less than true one.
US government data collection is not on the scale of China. The US is limited in what it gets from companies. China is absolutely not.
Yes, the US should absolutely have more data protection laws. The EU is better. China is absolutely not.
False
Nobody hoovers up more data than the US.
The US can’t even unlock an iPhone without calling in 3rd parties. EVERY Chinese made device collects data, and every Chinese business gives full access to the Chinese government. The US government does collect data but it’s no where near the scale of the Chinese.
Remember when Elon remotely unlocked that cybertruck recently and accessed the cameras?
He unlocked a device made by a company he owns, running software they designed on a network they operate. All that shows is that Tesla’s vehicles are not properly secured and remote access can be abused by Tesla employees.
Why would I give a shit about China knowing about where murderers are?
Hello, ml.
My toenail clippings are better than Teslas.
That’s what my friend in NZ told me too, they’re really good, better or the same as Tesla.
Build cars in Germany, Japan, South Korea and the like. focus on something non car you can sell to them in return. You can do anything but not everything.
Building cars is something we already do in Canada. And there’s currently a lot of capacity coming online to build electric cars. Pretty much the entire car could be sourced from Canadian parts, including the batteries. I think semi-conductors are the only thing that doesn’t have a domestic source right now.
Sedans please.
But we were fine with the usa destroying multiple countries, participating in many coups and supporting Israel for decades.
I would be sympathetic if the Uyghur stuff was true.
Do you have any substantial sources, to objectively prove your claims? I’ve never seen anything convincing.
I’m not intending to simp for China. They are authoritarian. But I’m also not going to fall for propaganda especially if it’s false. The USA has a motive for making the masses hate China.
There is plenty of evidence widely available from organizations like human rights watch and amnesty international. Claims that deny any evidence exist of the persecution of China’s Muslim population rely on logical fallacies to attempt to obscure the validity of the body of evidence. Namely ad hominem attacks against the individual who first gathered the evidence to begin with.
While the researcher obviously has biased opinions about the CCP, that doesn’t affect the validity of the evidence gathered, most of which comes directly from publicly available information released by the CCP itself, or from leaked internal communication from party members that have been widely verified by reputable journalists and organizations specializing in human rights violations.
While I personally wouldn’t claim that there is a genocide as we traditionally understand it has occurred, it’s hard to deny that the Uyghur people aren’t being systemically oppressed or that significant human rights violations haven’t occurred.
Simply looking at publicly available census data releases by the CCP we can tell that Uyghur people are being driven from culturally important sites that are being replaced by ethnically Han Chinese, and that Uyghur populations have been shrinking at a worryingly abnormal rate.
If we look at recent history of ethnic conflict within China in tibet, Manchuria, and inner Mongolia, I fail to see why it’s logical to assume that the accusations of crimes against humanity is pure propaganda.
Han chauvinism is well documented, and even Mao Zedong spoke about how it would negatively affect the future of the party. Ethnic conflict/cleansing has been a constant in the region and is part of the foundational history of modern China.
While I personally wouldn’t claim that there is a genocide as we traditionally understand it has occurred, it’s hard to deny that the Uyghur people aren’t being systemically oppressed or that significant human rights violations haven’t occurred.
It is politicization to be overly critical of China over what is a reasonable solution to peace and prosperity in the region, while the west contributes to 1000x worse treatment of Palestinians. That politicization gap shows that there is zero concern for actual genocide or persecution and instead a desire for (or avoidance for Israel for) political criticism independent of prosperity/facts.
Two wrongs don’t make a right.
It is politicization to be overly critical of China over what is a reasonable solution to peace and prosperity in the region
So… Forcing an entire ethnic group into concentration camps, forced migration, forced assimilation, and depopulation is reasonable? For what, because there were a couple attacks from some extremists?
while the west contributes to 1000x worse treatment of Palestinians.
I wasn’t aware it was a competition? Human rights violations should be criticized no matter who’s doing it.
That politicization gap shows that there is zero concern for actual genocide or persecution and instead a desire for (or avoidance for Israel for) political criticism independent of prosperity/facts.
Again… I’m not the American government. I am very critical of the US governments involvement with many genocides throughout history. I am also very critical of any government who participates in similar human rights violations, because I’m not a massive hypocrite.
So… Forcing an entire ethnic group into concentration camps, forced migration, forced assimilation, and depopulation is reasonable? For what, because there were a couple attacks from some extremists?
Hard proof of all of that has never been produced. Contrary facts exist for all your points.
What do you consider hard proof?
As I said, most of the information used has been verified by independent reporters or human rights organizations.
If you required the same level of “hard proof” as you are dictating for China then most crimes against humanity never happened.
We have video and pictures of concentration camps, we have verified internal documents, we have demographics released to the public by the offending government, we have personal testimony, we have announcements from the government admitting to moderate the birth limits of an extreme minority in the country…
What else could you possibly want?
secret papers can’t be hard proof. Neither is a photo of what may be a prison. There are extremely weak documentaries trying to hype up “re-education”, but the US pledge of allegiance would be equivalent indoctrination.
If you required the same level of “hard proof” as you are dictating for China then most crimes against humanity never happened.
at the risk of whataboutism, you have Israel engaged in genocidal mass murder on video. Politics of shit talking China is far more important than any objective principle of oppression.
We have video and pictures of concentration camps, we have verified internal documents, we have demographics released to the public by the offending government, we have personal testimony, we have announcements from the government admitting to moderate the birth limits of an extreme minority in the country…
There is genuine context/exaggeration to all of these points. Demographics and income specifically show Xinxiang doing better than average in China.
Oh boy, genocide denial.
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linking wikipedia is providing an enormous list of sources and summaries
at this point, the uighur issue is the bullshit asymmetry principal: it’s been proven time and time again and anyone asking for “sources” isn’t arguing in good faith: they’re relying on the fact that asking for sources takes thousands of times less energy than countering
so that’s what you get: a massive list of pre-prepared sources
*edit: and if you’d have actually read the article you posted, the UNHRC didn’t vote against the motion because they thought there was nothing to investigate: they voted against it to “avoid alienating china”
The majority of UN countries are on their side, Muslim majority countries included.
And claiming “U.N. body rejects debate on China’s treatment of Uyghur Muslims in blow to West” means a majority of countries on their side is just dishonest. China has a massive economy and is able to put political pressure on plenty of nations in the UN.
This would be like saying America has never pressured another nation into voting for something in the UN.
I think even the countries that abstained are on their side.
They’re obviously being pressured to be on that side but all of the UNSC veto holders do that. The veto power shouldn’t exist because this is what happens. Veto holders are allowed to bully whoever they want with no meaningful consequences.
even the countries that abstained are on their side.
What do you mean by on their side? Are you saying they don’t believe human rights violations happened, are you saying they are just politically aligned with China, or that worried about political backlash from China?
They’re not willing to stand up to an obvious bully and push for further investigation. Closer to your second and third statements than the first. With the third being the most likely.
I do understand how my first comment could be misunderstood now though.
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What they were doing was textbook sealioning. This information is right there for anyone to find and has been for years.
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If China is authoritarian and censors all information that makes China look bad, and spreads propaganda to other countries that those Governments are spreading propaganda to make China look bad and China isn’t actually bad, does it matter what is motivating the US to say “China Bad” when they objectively are?
I would be sympathetic if the Uyghur stuff was true.
This is denial, plain and simple.
It is not everyone else’s job to provide this ignoramus sources on the facts of the matter when we are all communicating on the internet where those facts can be found. Especially when no source can possibly be good enough when “they haven’t seen anything convincing yet” even though everyone but China and their allies are saying the same damn thing, including people who have fled China, and they are only referencing US sources.
Let’s use some simple logic here, bub.
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I don’t think that being uninformed is denying genocide and I think it’s antisocial, divisive, and not beneficial to any of us to treat it as if it is.
I don’t think deleting the parent comment so context is lost is good practice. I think it is antisocial, divisive, and not beneficial to any one who wants to keep up with the conversation.
But you did it anyways. Like how OP explicitly denied a genocide is happening.
Both things happened, and that’s a fact.
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Why would organisations who aren’t scared to criticise the west and have a really good track record like anmety intl and HRW make the suffering of the Uyghur people up?
It’s really fucking hard for me to understand why many people have so much trouble accepting both China/Russia and the West are heavily unethical. There’s no magic place that does everything ethically, and I don’t know why we’re refusing to acknowledge the cultural genocide of a large population, leading to extreme suffering for hunderds of thousands, because it criticises one country. It doesn’t matter who did it, it absolutely is awful, and we shouldn’t be denying it. Denying it only compounds the extreme suffering the population faces.
It’s so weird to me that people who defend China’s treatment of Uyghurs turn it into a US vs China thing. You can look through my recent history and find me saying that Biden, Harris, and everyone in Congress who clapped for Netanyahu have committed genocide and can rot in hell. Trump, of course, is even worse. This isn’t a “muh both sides bad enlightened centrism” thing because this isn’t a “sides” issue to begin with. Three of the four major superpowers on Earth right now are authoritarian hellholes, and the EU is on its way to joining them with its shift toward neo-Nazism.
Yes. It is absolutely shameful propaganda to the most humanist response to terrorism in history: Education and job creation. Very significant prosperity in region. The political designation of genocide is based on some unwed mothers with 4+ children going to UK to say they were now sterile, FFS. The anti-China hateful have no metrics to stop hating China. Only propaganda amplification.
It is absolutely shameful propaganda to the most humanist response to terrorism in history: Education and job creation. Very significant prosperity in region.
America said the same thing when they forced assimilation on the native population after stealing their land.
The political designation of genocide is based on some unwed mothers with 4+ children going to UK to say they were now sterile, FFS.
Again, your only defense to actual evidence is just logical fallacy. You aren’t making any argument in good faith.
The anti-China hateful have no metrics to stop hating China. Only propaganda amplification.
I actually admire a lot about the Chinese government, they’ve done wonders in recent decades to undue nearly a hundred years of foreign interference and imperialism. That doesn’t mean I’m not going to be critical of the things I don’t like about the government.
The simple fact is that they have a fairly well documented history of oppressing non-Han minorities in the country.
I hope EVs don’t get a bad name out of all this. EVs are one of the few good things to come out of the last decade or so.
Why would Canadians want cheaper EVs that may or may not be reliable when they can have American assembled ones that are more expensive and may or may not work?
Or maintain and drive the car you already have. There are more options then Tesla and BYD. These are probably the worst options.
I obviously don’t understand the economics of it and I realize that China will always have the upper hand on price but is there a reason every western EV has to be $40,000+? Like surely it’s possible to build a barebones model for less than 30k right - especially if I don’t need or even want touch screens or fancy interior materials or heated seats or anything.
If I specifically don’t want touch screens, what then?
Legally, cars sold in the US have to have a backup cam, so there has to be a screen, so it might as well be a touch screen.
I agree this is dumb and that’s why I drive an old car with nothing but bluetooth
Me too! What is the cost/benefit FOR ME? I understand what it is for the manufacturers but it’s a UX nightmare, especially when you’re trying to drive too.
Higher profit margins.
Europeans get the bulk of cheaper and smaller EVs. Meanwhile in North America, Ford stopped selling sedans. It’s a niche that car makers could fill if they wanted to.
Western culture is built on delivering value to shareholders first and foremost.
It’s a combination of issues. In no particular order;
- precursor availability: All the stuff that EVs are made of, is made in China. If you want to build EVs it’s easier and cheaper to get all the parts in China than it is in the US
- logistics: China has more modern roads, railroads, ports etc. That makes it much easier to get parts in and finished products out
- government aid: China has prioritized EVs for a long time and has all kinds of policies to encourage EV production
- EV infrastructure: China has more EV charging stations than the US and EU combined
- limited ICE competition: China doesn’t have any big ICE vehicle companies. There are no significant groups in China advocating against EVs
Labor costs don’t seem to be a factor at all. EVs are made in modern factories that are almost completely automated. The biggest part of “precursor availability” is likely batteries. The main innovation in EVs was the batteries. The electric motors, chassis, computers, etc are all secondary to batteries that can safely hold a lot of charge and discharge reliably. China dominates that market too.
How about the rare earth materials as well as much more expensive metals in the motor and electronics construction? An ICE engine is well understood and you can pick up a higher performing aluminum block and head crate motor for ~$13k or so. The higher trim Tesla motors are ~$20k, and they can have up to four motors. That’s a huge difference.
China has more rare earth deposits than the US but that’s a bit misleading. Rare earths show up in trace amounts all over the world. China has them in higher concentrations.
The bigger issue is that China has been the main refiner of rare earths for decades. That means they have all the infrastructure for actually making it available and they’ve developed a bunch of technologies and processes to do it way cheaper and more efficiently than anyone else can.
I don’t know the pricing specifics of EV motors but I have some familiarity with electric motors, in general. The technology hasn’t really changed much in a long time. We’ve have 3 phase motors and hall effect sensors for ages. They’re better than older electric motors but the huge technology leap, that made EVs practical, was the batteries.
That’s why I snatched up a Bolt before Chevy (temporarily, they say) discontinued the line. I even did upgrade it a little to get heated/cooling front seats and a heated steering wheel plus the extra safety features. $32.5k with a $7.5k rebate from the federal Clean Vehicle Credit. So $25k for a car with a 175-280 mile range. (175ish in winter when the battery is less efficient, 280 in summer).
Of course the IRS fucked up the point of sale rebate when I was purchasing, but it’s finally incoming with my taxes this year.
I imagine China is subsidizing the R&D of their EVs while American car companies are trying to recoup those costs
Every major country subsidizes R&D. That’s what federal research grants are all about. The NSF, NIH, etc do exactly that.
Other US subsidies on EVs aren’t specifically restricted to R&D but US companies could apply it to that, if they want.
edit: typo
China has been subsidizing EVs since 2010.
Longer than that. China has been promoting battery technology as a strategic initiative since the 90’s.
Definitely related. EVs are relatively new technology and internal knowledge for engineering R&D, materials, and manufacturing infrastructure all have to be spun up. All this, and you need marketing/planning folks to decide on what sort of vehicle will sell the best against their engineering capabilities.
Touch screens are actually cheaper than physical buttons as it’s the reason why so many electric cars have them. Most of the cost comes from the batteries so they try to save in other areas.
We should see more physical buttons back in newer electric cars as the batteries get cheaper to mass produce.
No kidding, I didn’t know that. I did some checking and it says replacement batteries are $5-15k! Well silver lining is the price is dropping precipitously:
Jan 26, 2024 - According to the DOE, the cost of a lithium-ion EV battery was 89 percent lower in 2022 than it was in 2008
Replacement batteries are really not a concern with EVs. They last longer than most folks expect and they come with pretty lengthy warranties.
It’s still ridiculous how expensive they are to repair or replace, and for sure that will hit some folks hard, but it really should be quite rare to replace an EV’s battery
My guess is that none of them are at scale to the point where the margins are great. To make the margins acceptable price had to go up.
Nothing is really profitable in auto until the whole production line is operating at full scale.
Yeah that makes sense, I bet you’re right or at least that’s a large part of it.
Reminds me of this video I saw about economies of scale specifically regarding a special part that went into a guitar. The maker could get the material and produce that part pretty cheaply until the automotive industry stopped using that same material. Suddenly they could barely source the material anymore and just had to cancel the part.
That’s crazy but makes sense. Basically benefiting from autos overflow.
touch screens are a lot cheaper than buttons because you only need the one. and if one trim level of a car has heated seats, they all do because it’s a lot cheaper to only produce one kind of seat.
car economics are weird.
Rear cameras are required, which means some sort of screen is required. Might as well make it a touch screen so you can cut costs on wiring and installing buttons if you already need one.
deleted as others said the exact same thing below.
Yes it costs more to live in those societies because people are paid more.
I still want diy builds to be eligible for hov lane sticker and rebates when they have those
i would find amusing if countries retaliate US tariffs by singling out Musk and Trump companies
Absolute gold
“I’m sure Americans can sleep soundly knowing that their entire economic future is being steered by the guy who bankrupted four separate casinos.”
That website is satire if I remember correctly.
Yes it is. It’s a Canadian satire site.
Ban the fucking things.
Offer loan forgiveness to any Tesla owner. Tell musk to fuck off.
Don’t offer loan forgiveness… force Tesla to do a full recall - it’s not like actions need to be logically justified these days…
We could just pass a law that says any car with more than 10 fatalities per 100k units is unsafe and has to be recalled and refunded. No car has come even close. It’s 17 times worse than a Ford Pinto.
Watch the Republicans start a civil war against themselves with the people who accept the buyout vs the ones “paying their dues” to their Lord and Savior.
The main reason why Chinese cars (all of them) aren’t allowed in North America is most don’t pass our strict Safety standards. What needs to happen is provinces need to allow mini EV’s. There are wonderful little single or two seater EV’s that only do 30 Kmh, and can do 50 to 100 km’s in range. But aren’t allowed legally on the road. You can get them for like 5K.
I am sick and tired of people claiming that BYD are unsafe They have crash tested better than my current vehicle.
Right I came here to say this as well.
I find this hard to believe considering in Aus most of the EVs are Chinese and our safety standards are probably the highest compared to any country. A lot of BYDs available now.
“Safety” you say. So why do you have Cybertruck, the kind of car that isn’t safe for anyone? Removing signal stick is not safety either.
Top that with copyrights removal on Tesla tech.
Copyright removal on all Disney products. Role expiry date back to puss them off.
Yeeeesssssss
