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We’ve spent the whole slide into fascism arguing with eachother about whether or not it was okay to use the word fascism instead of fighting the fascists.
Yeah… Unfortunately that fight on the word fascists ruined a lot of countries and it still does. Take for example Romanian elections.
well the thing is, when words mean things, it takes longer. And people tend to lose patience fairly quickly.
Thank you to you patient people out there.
seeing alot of transphobia in the comments, light and probably accidental but yes deadnaming caitlyn is transphobia even if she fucking sucks.
it shows the trans people here that your acceptance is conditional on us agreeing with you.
you can call her out for her bs without deadnaming her
I feel like accepting a trans person is, in fact, conditional on their support for other trans people. Like, it doesn’t have to be their whole personality, but full-throatedly supporting the anti-trans administration is the exact opposite of supporting the trans community.
The problem with that, again, is that you are outing that you won’t support trans people you disagree with. You can respect Caitlyn’s gender identity and chosen name while still calling her a bloody numpty.
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The reply to her tweet is on point, though. Any more deadnaming is just deadnaming.
Anyway, I would gladly provide her with HRT and send her to a labor camp as an enemy of the people.
This is, quite literally, same as Jews for Hitler -movement in pre-The War Germany. There are shades of grey in everything, and everyone. You can be bad or the side of bad people, even if you are a minority.
I agree. Looking through the comments, I’m getting that “crabs fighting in the pot, pulling the others back in” vibe. We elevate society by being better. Period. Not being better if.
is conditional on us agreeing with you.
Not exactly. If anything it’s conditional on you not selling your allies/kin down the river.
Except that by misgendering her you’re causing harm to the trans community as a whole. We don’t misgender cisgender people when they are bad people. Misgendering transgender people who do bad things only shows that respecting transgender identity is conditional and can be revoked by other people. It’s not. It’s who we are. Even if someone is a trash fire human being they still should be gendered correctly.
Transphobes will read comments misgendering or deadnaming Caitlyn and cheer along. There are far, far better ways to vocalize disapproval of her. Ways that don’t hurt other trans people.
I appreciate your point. A few months ago I was in a discussion with someone on Lemmy about the strategy of maliciously complying with someone that has insincerely stated a preference for neo-pronouns. The example in the discussion was Elon Musk claiming “prosecute/Fauci” as pronouns, but insincere pronouns aren’t necessarily so easily spotted. (My position was and is that it’s okay to maliciously comply with someone’s professed pronouns to demonstrate that person’s insincerity)
If you’re not tired of tutoring ignorant allies I’d really appreciate your opinion on that dilemma.
I’m not disagreeing on morality of misgendering. I’m disagreeing that the misgendering is conditional on agreement.
I don’t want to sound mean with this I’m sure you mean the best but this isn’t a debate
Deadnaming and/or misgendering someone purposefully is transphobia and doing it because they’re a bad person is still transphobia
As a trans person I’m saying that if you are transphobic to someone even if they’re bad is conditional acceptance whether you mean it that way or not
People were deadnaming her in the comments, that’s transphobia not an opinion
Deadnaming and/or misgendering someone purposefully is transphobia
This is not what I am disagreeing with you on. I am in full agreement here.
and doing it because they’re a bad person is still transphobia
Im disagreeing on this point. It isn’t simply because they’re a bad person.
People were deadnaming her in the comments, that’s transphobia not an opinion
Agreed
What’s the difference between transphobia and bigotry?
I think you might mean bigotry, albeit a very specific kind.
I think you might mean bigotry, albeit a very specific kind.
Yes, and that very specific kind of bigotry is called transphobia…
I thought the “phobia” part was relevant but in looking up definitions of transphobia and homophobia I see that, etymologically, the phobia part seems to be irrelevant. TIL!
would you call Candace Owens the n word? bigotry is about you, not the person you subject it to.
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I would not
transphobia
Well I mean, all of the trans communities are on an instance with downvotes disabled for a reason. This place is ‘left wing’ when it comes to Trump but when it comes to LGBTQ+ issues, feminism or even discussion about religion, I have my doubts about how ‘left wing’ people here really are.
A great litmus test for transphobia is what pronouns people use for Christine Chandler.
I doubt 99.99% of people here have any idea who Chris Chan is.
It’s more like the people that do know her how they refer to her.
I’d say either an obscure character from Friends, or Jackie Chan’s sister?
Nope, obscure infamous internet person. Both relentlessly bullied by 4chan, which is terrible, but they’re also a terrible person in their own right, including raping their elderly mom and going to prison for it. Famous for “Sonichu”, a self made fan character that’s sonic and Pikachu mixed together.
A few years ago they came out as trans, but even that’s been very contentious on whether or not it’s real as faking/lying about that for attention is perfectly in line with their character. I prefer to just use neutral pronouns, some refuse to acknowledge (or just have no fucking clue that the trans thing ever happened, which is why my initial comment was worded in the way that it was).
The Chris Chan saga is vast, if you’re curious just throw that name into YouTube and there’s hours upon hours of content.
I really only know of Chris Chan from a Behind the Bastards episode
Why should weknow them? Did Chandler from Friends come out?
It doesn’t really matter, it’s just an example of someone who’s done some weird and also some bad things who is trans. Never said you should know her.
I think liberals gleefully devising litmus tests is what elected Trump in the first place.
The fuck do you think I’m talking about? You think I’m purity testing people by subjecting them to this? No! I just mean it’s very telling when people refer to her as “he” and when called out about it they insist it’s okay because she’s a shitty person or whatever. As if that suddenly makes transphobia okay.
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That’s because Caitlyn Jenner is rich.
It’s really simple, friends.
I’m not your friend, pal!
I’m not your pal, dude!
I’m not your dude, goober.
I’m not your goober, mister.
I’m not your mister, buddy.
Yo Google is not doing its part, alert the authority or your citizenship may be at risk.
TIL she’s 75.
Obviously she’s had some work done, but goddamn that is a lot of work.
I mean…yes?
I just wasn’t expecting a full plastic person! And I suppose they do say estrogen supplements are good for the skin.
Plus being a professional track and field star makes for a great foundation into the later years.
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Leopards ate her face.
She’ll be against the wall still singing Trump’s praises
And take away your passport.
This is gonna be one of those ‘oh, my transition was done during the previous administration, so THIS administrations rules rules don’t apply to me’ cases.
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Blatant transphobia here. Caitlyn Jenner is a horrible person but transphobic attacks help nobody
Nothing about my statement is attacking her as a trans person. Shes still trans and was planning to come out. She came out as trans to dilute the news when she KILLED SOMEONE.
take a step back and really read what I stated.
Questioning a trans person’s motives to come out is transphobic
I’m not doing this, don’t be a troll. Go touch grass
maybe. maybe not. In the end not for us to decide.
But tbh, if that were the case, she wouldn’t have “stuck to the act” for so long.
I’m not saying she’s not trans I just think it’s convenient. Like Kevin spacey coming out as gay, right as the allegations happen
oh, absolutely great timing to dilute the news, agreed
Yeah, maybe she came out when she did for that reason, but nobody has ever pretended to be trans and gone through years of HRT and surgery.
Buckle up buckaroos.
If this post doesn’t get deleted, I’m gone. This just shows again that lemmy.world is filled with transphobes and that the mods endorse them. I will look for an instance that doesn’t federate with them.
I am very confused by your comment.
The picture shows a post by a trans person praising donald trump.
And a response to that post pointing out that trump is transphobic.
But you saw this and decided that its the people of lemmy world who are this transphobes?
How is this post not a pro trans post? By opposing trumps anti trans executive order and pointing that out to a trans person who supports trump, you are damaging trump, not the trans person.
People can be trans and also fucking idiots at the same time. Its not transphobic to think a specific trans person is being dumb.
.ml bot moment i think
It’s the lemmy people dogpiling and continuing the deadnaming after the point in the tweet has already been made. Yes Caitlyn Jenner is a moron who aligned herself with transphobic fascists who have legally mandated she be called by her deadname. Continuing to deadname her after the point is made is just additional cruelty on top without any additional benefit
Speaking more meta though, I fully understand the anger coming from people more to the left of Republicans, cruelty has won the Judiciary, congress and the presidency, cruelty has been an effective political strategy for republicans and a lot of people are angry and scared.
wait how is the above transphobic? I thought it was a leopard-face-eating situation
Someone being a bad person is not an excuse to deadname them.
Normally I would agree. But in this instance, the very fact that Jenner is trans and voluntarily having her face eaten by leopards is at the core of the issue. So you can’t really tiptoe around the subject in this instance. She’s totally doing this to herself.
“The president just ordered the government to deadname you” is not deadnaming.
That is not what the second tweet said. What it said was: “He just ordered the government to call you <deadname>.”
Replace <deadname> with the N-word. Does your logic still hold up? If not, why are you OK with one slur, but not another?
I’m sorry, I’m really trying my best not to add to the collective rage and negativity on this site, but this is deeply disingenuous. The second tweet is the kind of nonsense that edgy hack comedians do when they want to get away with bigoted “jokes”. Wrap the offensive bit in layers of irony and detachment and rhetoricals, to distract from the fact that they are still saying the offensive bit.
There is currently an ongoing genocide against trans people in the United States. I am begging you to take this seriously, even if you’re going to joke about it. Especially if you’re going to joke about it, because humor is powerful and words have consequences.
“There is currently an ongoing genocide against trans people in the United States. I am begging you to take this seriously, even if you’re going to joke about it. Especially if you’re going to joke about it, because humor is powerful and words have consequences.”
I agree… which is why I think this tweet is actually spot on. Sometimes it’s actually more important to say the n-word, hard r and all, because to soften it would be to soften the danger.
When we talk about the Holocaust, we don’t say Hitler “unalived people” or “put them to sleep.” We show them the pile of shoes. We describe the evil in detail, because that’s going to galvanize people.
That’s not the same thing as disrespecting trans people. It’s recognizing the danger and not coddling the people who are facing that danger. Yes, words hurt, but the kind of stuff Trump has in store for people like us will hurt a whole lot more than if you called me by my birth name. It doesn’t help anyone to sugarcoat it.
Replace <deadname> with the N-word. Does your logic still hold up?
Yes. There is a difference between saying “The president ordered the government to murder you” and actually murdering someone.
Ordinarily, yes - but she’s praising someone who would quite happily dead name her. It’s apt, is it not?
Nah this is like the social contract thing. You only get protection from the social contract as long as you adhere to the social contract.
The minute you stop adhering to the social contact you stop being protected by it.
Don’t be a piece of shit and people won’t treat you like a piece of shit. It’s that fuckin simple.
Trans rights are human rights. They are not something you can take away because people “stop adhering to the social contract”, the same way we can’t take access to food and healthcare away from prisoners just because they did a crime (yes, in real-life they often get taken away, but you get the point).
Insisting on deadnaming someone also harms the whole transgender community, by pushing the point that those rights are conditional.
But the person replying isn’t saying that Caitlyn ought to be referred to by her former name. In fact, they aren’t actually using it to refer to her at all. They’re merely mentioning that it exists, which is appropriate in some contexts.
If I were going over medical records with my doctor, she would be fine to ask if (deadname) was my name, because it’s for a necessary purpose. That’s different from using it to refer to me.
Also, if Caitlyn is offended by seeing that name, she’s going to have an awfully rude awakening coming under the current administration. I think the time for subtlety is past on that front.
Would you call a black person the n-word because they did something bad?
Would I say “Trump only sees you as a cotton-picking n----r” to a black Trump supporter? Yeah, if the context was right (like it is in the example). Hard r and all. Because it’s true - that is what Trump thinks, even if he’s smart enough not to say it (often).
That’s not the same as me calling them the n-word, I’m stating what someone else thinks.
Of course I wouldn’t call a black person the n-word. Not because I’m afraid of the word itself, but because I genuinely don’t believe in the image of black people that word was meant to create.
But Trump absolutely does. And it’s ok to call a spade a spade. Important, even.
If they were being extremely racist I might.
Not because I’m racist but just because I know it’ll piss them off.
With that said I’ve never actually done it just thought about it
If finding irony in a situation is transphobic I guess you’ll have a hard time on social media in general. Have you tried gardening? And I suggest you don’t announce your departure either, this isn’t a train station.
Finding the irony of a trans person cheering on a transphobic fascist isn’t transphobic, continuing to deadname (something transphobes do for the sake of cruelty) after the irony has been pointed out is transphobic.
Yes she’s a dumbass who supports a man who is legally requiring her to be deadnamed. If you follow continue to follow the laws of a fascist to hurt minorities, congratulations you’re still following the laws of a fascist to hurt minorities.
Call her a dumbass, point out that the law as written requires people to call her by her deadname, point out that she won’t be immune to fascist consequences when Republicans do come for trans people, don’t continue to deadname just because someone else already pointed out irony.
Is mentioning the name in a conversation deadnaming?
Because in my mind there is a difference between “trump said we have to call you bruce” and “hey bruce, guess what trump said”, but it might not be the same for the people who disagree with my argumentYes there is a difference between “trump said I have to call you bruce” which is what the original post is, but the people in the comments posting photos of the Bruce Jenner decathlon board game, or referring to her as “Mr Bruce that is” or making a fake book title “they still call me Bruce II: electric boogaloo” are where the transphobia is setting in.
Yes she’s a dumbass, yes she is cheering on the leopards eating her face, yes those leopards are going after trans people, but that doesn’t mean we get to act the same way transphobes do to insult and dehumanize trans people no matter how much we disagree with the trans person. Attack their ideas and their dumbassery, not their identity.
I agree, and I haven’t seen many people doing that on this thread, so calling out the totality of lemmy.world users as “unmoderated transphobes” as the parent comment tries to do is forced and useless.
I’ll go a step further and say that this kind of behaviour detracts from the main cause of trans rights, which many of the people here stand behind. Because if you call me a transphobe when all I’m trying to do is to call out your bullshit, what you’re actually achieving is making me loose simpathy for your cause.
Better still, convince lemmy.ml to defederate from all of us.
K. Bye.
Critical thinking has left the building
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I know she deserves everything bad coming her way but this is still just transphobia…
How so? They’re not calling her Bruce, they’re stating the fact that the person that she’s worshipping decreed that she legally has to be called by her birth name, Bruce.
No it’s pointing out the absurdity and hypocrisy of somebody who is trans praising and sucking up to the guy who is passing ton of anti-trans laws.
It’s like being black and sending a shout-out with praise to a KKK leader.
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*NazYe
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Not sure how pointing out someone acting like Uncle Ruckus is transphobic. Is it antisemitic to point out that Jewish members were the first group purged from the Nazi party?
I’m genuinely curious, what about it comes across as transphobia to you?
not OP, but I’m in two minds about it. I don’t really care to step in on caitlyn’s behalf, she can kick rocks for all I care. and I don’t think the intent of the post was hateful, but whenever a trans person does something bad and newsworthy, deadnames start to come out and even if it’s directed at someone I actively despise it still sucks to read. revoking someone’s chosen name out of personal disgust is just something we deal with irl a lot. it’s a similar kind of ick as when a female politician does something reprehensible and the discourse gets flooded by a bunch of people crudely commenting on her appearance.
eta: with a very minor change this same exact point could be made without deadnaming her, so to me it’s uncomfortable and unnecessary.
revoking someone’s chosen name out of personal disgust
The tweet does not call Caitlyn Bruce, it’s telling Caitlyn than the president ordered the government to call her Bruce.
Mentioning a deadname is not the same as deadnaming, this is not like saying “Jehovah” or something. I understand that just bringing up someone’s deadname can be jarring to at least a portion of trans people but, like, that’s the point here. Shock her into realising what’s being done to, also, her.
Yeah this is exactly how I feel and why I didn’t really wanna argue about this further, she’s the last person I’d wanna defend but I still felt like it should be pointed out.
What is she referring to?
these two are the same person, formerly called “Bruce JENNER”, now called “Caitlyn JENNER”
I meant what Caitlyn was referring to.
Ah, you mean the imaginary all powerfull being telling you not to eat shellfish?
Red tide warning.
This was when Trump entered the office a few weeks ago.
Him being appointed dictator last month.
