Article: https://proton.me/blog/deepseek
Calls it “Deepsneak”, failing to make it clear that the reason people love Deepseek is that you can download and it run it securely on any of your own private devices or servers - unlike most of the competing SOTA AIs.
I can’t speak for Proton, but the last couple weeks are showing some very clear biases coming out.
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Pretty rich coming from Proton, who shoved a LLM into their mail client mere months ago.
wait, what? How did I miss that? I use protonmail, and I didn’t see anything about an LLM in the mail client. Nor have I noticed it when I check my mail. Where/how do I find and disable that shit?
Thank you. I’ve saved the link and will be disabling it next time I log in. Can’t fucking escape this AI/LLM bullshit anywhere.
The combination of AI, crypto wallet and CEO’s pro-MAGA comments (all within six months or so!) are why I quit Proton. They’ve completely lost the plot. I just want a reliable email service and file storage.
I’m considering leaving proton too. The two things I really care about are simplelogin and the VPN with port forwarding. As far as I understand it, proton is about the last VPN option you can trust with port forwarding
Happily using AirVPN for port forwarding.
I’m strongly considering switching to them! How do you like it?
As far as I understand it, proton is about the last VPN option you can trust with port forwarding
Could you explain this part please? What makes them untrustworthy?
I’m not 100% sure if you mean what do I think makes proton untrustworthy, or what do I think makes other vpns untrustworthy?
If you’re referring to proton, some of the statements Andy Yen have made recently are painting proton as less neutral than they claim to be.
I’m also generally aware that a LOT of vpn outfits are just a different company mining your traffic and data, and that there are few “no log” vpns that you can trust.
Despite their recent statements that sour my taste in giving proton money (and the ai bullshit that every goddam company is shoving down our throats), I trust proton when they say no logs. They’re regularly audited for it.
I don’t trust all these other VPN companies that claim to be no log and have nothing to back them up. Especially when several of them have been caught logging and mining/selling the data they claim to not be logging.
Once all that crap came out, I felt incredibly justified by never having switched to Proton.
It was entirely out of laziness, but still
I know, I was on a big anti-google crusade and Proton seemed like an easy plug-n-play for a lot of the same services. That’s OK, I’m not really an “all your eggs in one basket” kind of person anyway.
Crypto and AI focus was a weird step before all this came out. But now we know Andy is pro republican… completes a very unappealing picture. We should have a database tho, plenty of c level execs and investor groups do far worse and get no scrutiny simply because they don’t post about it on the internet.
what’s a good privacy replacement for email/pass?
After using Proton for a couple years I’ve come around to the POV that private email is a dead end. There was not a single occasion where the sender or recipient of any email was also using encryption. If I want encrypted comms I use Signal. Instead of Pass I went back to using Bitwarden.
This is why I switched to using Migadu as my email provider with my own URL. They make no qualms about saying email is inherently insecure, but they’re cheap, have great customer service, and they’re independent.
they were also caught praising a nazi party so thats that too
How apt, just yesterday I put together an evidenced summary of the CEOs recent absurd comments. Why are Proton so keen to throw away so much good will people had invested in them?!
This is what the CEO posting as u/Proton_Team stated in a response on r/ProtonMail:
Here is our official response, also available on the Mastodon post in the screenshot:
Corporate capture of Dems is real. In 2022, we campaigned extensively in the US for anti-trust legislation.
Two bills were ready, with bipartisan support. Chuck Schumer (who coincidently has two daughters working as big tech lobbyists) refused to bring the bills for a vote.
At a 2024 event covering antitrust remedies, out of all the invited senators, just a single one showed up - JD Vance.
By working on the front lines of many policy issues, we have seen the shift between Dems and Republicans over the past decade first hand.
Dems had a choice between the progressive wing (Bernie Sanders, etc), versus corporate Dems, but in the end money won and constituents lost.
Until corporate Dems are thrown out, the reality is that Republicans remain more likely to tackle Big Tech abuses.
Source: https://archive.ph/quYyb
To call out the important bits:
- He refers to it as the “official response”
- Indicates that JD Vance is on their side just because he attended an event that other invited senators didn’t
- Rattles on about “corporate Dems” with incredible bias
- States “Republicans remain more likely to tackle Big Tech abuses” which is immediately refuted by every response
That was posted in ther/ProtonMail sub where the majority of the event took place: https://old.reddit.com/r/ProtonMail/comments/1i1zjgn/so_that_happened/m7ahrlm/
However be aware that the CEO posting as u/Proton_Team kept editing his comments so I wouldn’t trust the current state of it. Plus the proton team/subreddit mods deleted a ton of discussion they didn’t like. Therefore this archive link captured the day after might show more but not all: https://web.archive.org/web/20250116060727/https://old.reddit.com/r/ProtonMail/comments/1i1zjgn/so_that_happened/m7ahrlm/
Some statements were made on Mastodon but these are subsequently deleted, but they’re capture by an archive link: https://web.archive.org/web/20250115165213/https://mastodon.social/@protonprivacy/113833073219145503
I learned about it from an r/privacy thread but true to their reputation the mods there also went on a deletion spree and removed the entire post: https://www.reddit.com/r/privacy/comments/1i210jg/protonmail_supporting_the_party_that_killed/
This archive link might show more but I’ve not checked: https://web.archive.org/web/20250115193443/https://old.reddit.com/r/privacy/comments/1i210jg/protonmail_supporting_the_party_that_killed/
There’s also this lemmy discussion from the day after but by that point the Proton team had fully kicked in their censorship so I don’t know how much people were aware of (apologies I don’t know how to make a generic lemmy link) https://feddit.uk/post/22741653
Until corporate Dems are thrown out, the reality is that Republicans remain more likely to tackle Big Tech abuses.
What a fucking dumbass. Yes, dems suck. But at least Lina Khan was head of the FTC and starting to change how antitrust laws are enforced. Did he delete this post after Trump was inaugurated with 3 of the richest tech billionaires?
Lisa Khan is a hero. This is quite twisted “logic”: this party sucks, so let’s side with Hitler instead.
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People got flack for saying Proton is the CIA, Proton is NSA, Proton is a joint five-eyes country intelligence operation despite the convenient timing of their formation and lots of other things.
Maybe they’re not, maybe their CEO is just acting this way.
But consider for a moment if they were. IF they were then all of this would make more sense. The CIA/NSA/etc have a vested interest in discrediting and attacking Chinese technology they have no ability to spy or gather data through. The CIA/NSA could also for example see a point to throwing in publicly with Trump as part of a larger agreed upon push with the tech companies towards reactionary politics, towards what many call fascism or fascism-ish.
My mind is not made up. It’s kind of unknowable. I think they’re suspicious enough to be wary of trusting them but there’s no smoking gun, yet there wasn’t a smoking gun that CryptoAG was a CIA cut-out until some unauthorized leaks nearly a half century after they gained control and use of it. We know they have an interest in subverting encryption, in going fishing among “interesting” targets who might seek to use privacy-conscious services and among dissidents outside the west they may wish to vet and recruit.
True privacy advocates should not be throwing in with the agenda of any regime or bloc, especially those who so trample human and privacy rights as that of the US and co. They should be roundly suspicious of all power.
In other words, honeypot. And an US plant in Switzerland…
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1978 US Automotive Companies: If we make a product that locks our customers in, they’ll be our customers forever!
1978 Japanese Automotive Companies: The US gave us their required parameters. If we make a product that works then customers will keep buying our stuff.
2025 US Tech Companies: If we make our products contingent on proprietary software and hardware, we’ll lock them in.
2025 Chinese Tech Companies: The US gave us their required parameters. If we make a product that works and they can utilize freely, they’ll keep buying our stuff.
Not our first rodeo.
OpenAI, Google, and Meta, for example, can push back against most excessive government demands.
Sure they “can” but do they?
“Pushing back against the government” doesn’t even make sense. These people are oligarchs. They largely are the government. Who attended Trump’s inauguration? Who hosted Trump’s inauguration party? These US tech oligarchs.
Why do that when you can just score a deal with the government to give them whatever information they want for sweet perks like foreign competitors getting banned?
They cannot. When big daddy FBI knocks on the door and you get that forced NDA you, will build in backdoors and comply with anything the US government tells you.
Even then the US might want to you to shut down because they want to control your company.
TikTok.
It’s simple:
bad.Well you just made me choke on my laughter. Well done, well done.
🤣
CHYNA
To be fair its correct but it’s poor writing to skip the self hosted component. These articles target the company not the model.
Goddammit I had such high hopes for Proton. Was planning on that being my post-Google main. Now what. 💀
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At this point I’m this 🤏 close to
hosting my own emailabandoning it all and living in a cabin in yhe woodsMan, I wish self hosted email was a reasonable thing to do. But it’s a pain to set up the server and the domain stuff, and once you do, if anyone ever spammed off that IP, you’re probably screwed anyway because good luck getting off the blacklists.
Anything European-based to recommend? I’d like something as far-removed from America as possible, respecting GDPR, privacy, etc., but with a good-sized free-tier storage. I don’t think I need more than a couple GB for email. Calendar included would be a big plus as well. 😅 Probably asking for a lot here…
I use Infomaniak Mail or ikmail for short. They give you 20GB free, have a whole suite (calendar and others), and are Swiss based. It can also link to other mail clients under the free tier. Only hurdle is using a VPN or proxy for initial sign up, but that can be turned off for daily usage.
I found this while searching on my own. Might help someone else. 🤷♂️
honestly probably worth paying for for something if it means enough to you
I’ve been happy with Fastmail for 10 years, though they’re Australian and not European. Might look into a European alternative at some point but so far I’ve had no reason to switch.
I’ve heard of Startmail being an alternative, it’s based in the Netherlands but it’s quite expensive ($7/month) and it’s owned by an adtech company (System1)
Since ditching Proton for Tuta and Mailbox…I haven’t missed anything and I’m saving money.
You have two email addresses in both Tuta and Mailbox? Any particular reason for that, that you could share with us? 🙏
I have two domains, one in each of Tuta and Mailbox. It was originally so I could try both out, but now I figure it doesn’t hurt to keep 'em separated. I’m still new to non-proton so I am sort of still feeling things out.
Nothing really too interesting or tricky about it, just bred out of curiosity.
Ah I see. So now to the possibly tough question, if you had to choose only one, or recommend only one of them to someone who wants to make a minimal amount of new email addresses, which one would you recommend over the other? 😅 Or maybe a third option?
I think I’d need some more time to really answer, but on the outset, I find Mailbox.org’s interface more intuitive with more settings and generally feels cleaner and more streamlined. Creating aliases and domain aliases in mailbox seems more proton-like in its simplicity.
Tuta I think is more private and secure, but bits of their interface and app need polish. One reason I think Tuta is more secure despite them both touting security and privacy is that Mailbox search works immediately, whereas Tuta requires you to agree to a permission and states it stores everything locally to you so it may take up space. I think Tuta isn’t doing any server-side indexing of any kind? Unsure.
edit: Mailbox doesn’t have a native app, and Tuta has a native app but I think it’s largely a webview. Notifications work OK but you’ll click on a notification and then have to wait for the app to actually connect and resync before you can view it.
Just following up on this, I stumbled on this: https://tuta.com/mailbox
I think it might help. I could definitely see that depending on your use case, Mailbox may be a better choice. I think for general privacy they’re both good, with Tuta having a few “a step above” offerings security-wise but maybe not necessary for most users.
How is this Open Source? The official repository https://github.com/deepseek-ai/DeepSeek-R1 contains images only, a PDF file, and links to download the model. I don’t see any code. What exactly is Open Source here? And if so, where to get the source code?
Open-Source in AI usually posted to HuggingFace instead of GitHub: https://huggingface.co/deepseek-ai/DeepSeek-R1
In deep learning generally open source doesn’t include actual training or inference code. Rather it means they publish the model weights and parameters (necessary to run it locally/on your own hardware) and publish academic papers explaining how the model was trained. I’m sure Stallman disagrees but from the standpoint of deep learning research DeepSeek definitely qualifies as an “open source model”
Just because they call it Open Source does not make it. DeepSeek is not Open Source, it only provides model weights and parameters, not any source code and training data. I still don’t know whats in the model and we only get “binary” data, not any source code. This is not Libre software.
There is a nice (even if by now already a bit outdated) analysis about the openness of different “open source” generative AI projects in the following article: Liesenfeld, Andreas, and Mark Dingemanse. “Rethinking open source generative AI: open washing and the EU AI Act.” The 2024 ACM Conference on Fairness, Accountability, and Transparency. 2024.
So “Open Source” to AI is just releasing a .psd file used to export a jpeg, and you need some other proprietary software like Photoshop in order to use it.
What other proprietary software is necessary to use model weights?
I suspect the enshittification of proton is fast approaching.
Im stuck. Is there a Guide for a fast approaching full suit switch?
Caleneder, Passwords, Email, Drive?
Email and calendar: Tuta, Posteo, Mailbox.org, Disroot
Passwords: Bitwarden, KeepassXC
Drive: Filen.io
@ReakDuck Well Nextcloud I guess but they only offer an email client so you can connect an existing email account
many services will not accept email addresses that are not Gmail or protonmail or outlook etc. I don’t know what you would use
I have not encountered those yet. I guess keep a Gmail handy if you really must.
Jesus fuckin Christ, just marry Trump at this point, Mister proton CEO.
this is obviously talking about their web app, which most people will be using. In this special instance, it was clearly not the LLM itself censoring the Tiananmen Square, but a layer on top.
i have not bothered downloading and asking deepseek about Tiananmen Square. so i cannot know what the model would have generated. however, it is possible that certain biasses are trained into any model.
i am pretty sure, this blog is aimed at the average user. while i wouldn’t trust any LLM company with my data, i certainly wouldn’t want the chinese government to have them. anyone that knows how to use (ollama)[https://github.com/ollama/ollama] should know these telemetry data don’t apply to running locally. but for sure, pointing it out in the blog would help.
@ToxicWaste @JOMusic the censorship is trained into the ollama models too. But of course the self-hosted model cannot send anything to China, so at least the whole tracking issue is avoided.
im not an expert at criticism, but I think its fair from their part.
I mean, can you remind me what are the hardware requirements to run deepseek locally?
oh, you need a high-end graphics card with at least 8 GB VRAM for that*? for the highly distilled variants! for more complete ones you need multiple such graphics card interconnected! how do you even do that with more than 2 cards on a consumer motherboard??how many do you think have access to such a system, I mean even 1 high-end gpu with just 8 GB VRAM, considering that more and more people only have a smartphone nowadays, but also that these are very expensive even for gamers?
and as you will read in the 2nd referenced article below, memory size is not the only factor: the distill requiring only 1 GB VRAM still requires a high-end gpu for the model to be usable.so my point is that when talking about deepseek, you can’t ignore how they operate their online service, as most people will only be able to try that.
I understand that recently it’s very trendy, and cool to shit on Proton, but they have a very strong point here.
Just because the average consumer doesn’t have the hardware to use it in a private manner does not mean it’s not achievable. The article straight up pretends self hosting doesn’t exist.
of course, move the ducking goalposts! buying a big yacht is also achievable, technically! but very little of the people can actually do it.
don’t forget what did OP say:
failing to make it clear that the reason people love Deepseek is that you can download and it run it securely on any of your own private devices or servers
don’t believe me? look at the post text. this is as large a misunderstanding as the Eiffel Tower. Virtually nobody can run it on their private devices, that fraction of a percent is basically a rounding error.
I’m so tired of this fucking bullshit. but let’s hate proton for it if that’s what’s trendy!
The 1.5B version that can be run basically on anything. My friend runs it in his shitty laptop with 512MB iGPU and 8GB of RAM (inference takes 30 seconds)
You don’t even need a GPU with good VRAM, as you can offload it to RAM (slower inference, though)
I’ve run the 14B version on my AMD 6700XT GPU and it only takes ~9GB of VRAM (inference over 1k tokens takes 20 seconds). The 8B version takes around 5-6GB of VRAM (inference over 1k tokens takes 5 seconds)
The numbers in your second link are waaaaaay off.
There are plenty of other online platforms where you can use the unmodified model without siphoning your data to China. The model itself is just an offline blob and doesn’t need to be modified to make a “more secure” and “privacy friendly” version like the article says it does, because the model is not tasked with collecting and sharing your data. The author doesn’t seem to be aware of that.
except that the model is not offline if you access it through yet another online service, doing who knows what with your data
The platform you’re using is indeed an online platform with its own data practices, but that’s common sense and has nothing to do with this model being Chinese. It’s up to the user to decide wether or not to use online AI services at all and which ones (not) to trust. The model itself isn’t doing anything with your data.
There are many llms you can use offline
Including DeepSeek: https://huggingface.co/deepseek-ai
Deepseek works reasonably well, even at cpu only in ollama. I ran the 7b and 1.5b models and it wasn’t awful. 7b slowed down as the convo went on, but the 1.5b model felt pretty passable while I was playing with it
