A new bid to place a measure on the ballot that would ask California voters to approve the state's secession from the U.S. has been cleared for signature gathering.
  • Ebby@lemmy.ssba.com
    143·
    10 days ago

    Can we coordinate with Oregon and Washington to join Canada?

    That aside, California leads the US in many ways, but we have a tendency to go too far and do really dumb things. We’re pretty good at self congratulations even when other states stare, slack-jawed at our blunders. It’s nice to have perspective.

  • FundMECFSResearch
    87·
    11 days ago

    Honestly at this point I feel the US would do great by splitting and becoming a confederation (think EU styles autonomy).

    I think the differences are just too big to have a functioning state.

    I also understand that the push towards these movements is often done by Russian propaganda, who want to do anything to split up the US and NATO.

    • TankovayaDiviziya@lemmy.world
      21·
      11 days ago

      I live in the EU, there are some good things but also ineffeciencies living in a confederation style government. To be fair, while consumer and labour protection in the EU has been amazing, we have to admit that there is almost no innovation in R&D going on in Europe as a whole compared to the US. Aside from strict regulations, this is because there is no single rule on how to promote R&D. Each countries have their own rules and promotions. Some states are innovators like Germany, or has no R&D at all like Ireland.

      Another weakness that the EU has is on production and defense. As you rightly pointed out, Russia wants the West to fragment, and Russia wants the EU to remain chaotic when it comes to military production and have a disunited, if not an incoherent, European army. But external influence is not even the main issue, the main issue is that many EU countries are neutral like Ireland and Austria, who are not part of NATO. I don’t know about Austria but it’s very unpopular here in Ireland to join any military alliance and there is a negative image of NATO after the Iraq War. Finland and Sweden used to be anti-NATO until the Russian invasion of Ukraine. And with the legacy of the horrors of the Second World War, military production in Europe has been weak. Even though the EU has outstripped the US in terms of giving aid to Ukraine, much of these are non-military because European arms industries are struggling to produce. The US is still the primary military donor of Ukraine.

      With different competing values and priorities, it’s challenging for the EU to remain confederate. A lot of people advocate for the EU to federalise for this reason.

      • FundMECFSResearch
        10·
        11 days ago

        Nothing is perfect. I mean I’ve spent most my life living in the EU too. I just think it would work better than the current US system. But that’s my personal opinion.

        • TankovayaDiviziya@lemmy.world
          7·
          11 days ago

          Not unless you’re dealing with external threats and unreliable ally. Macron is right about having strategic autonomy and an EU army, as much as it pains me to say it because I dislike another heavily militarised Europe.

          • 0ops@lemm.ee
            8·
            11 days ago

            As an American, I’m growing more and more scared of my country, so from that perspective I’m all for a more militarized Europe to keep the US in check if only for the next decade or two.

      • Modern_medicine_isnt@lemmy.world
        8·
        11 days ago

        Your point on R&D, while true, doesn’t consider the cost of the US R&D success. I’m not talking about money. I’m talking about it creating the oligarchs we have now. I’m talking about how all that investment doesn’t go toward healthcare or generally improving the lives of the people. Personally, I think it is a bad trade.

        • TankovayaDiviziya@lemmy.world
          3·
          10 days ago

          Oh yeah, of course. That’s why I mentioned consumer and labour protection versus R&D. I understand if companies that make essential goods and services like pharma or vehicles might complain of regulations stifling innovations, but social media companies like Facebook or Twitter don’t provide anything essential to our daily lives and thus they don’t really require anymore innovation. Sure they provide communications, but there are many other social media and communications services out there who do not sell private data.

      • randomEnglish
        4·
        10 days ago

        I’m austrian, we literally can’t join any military organisation, because our constitution says so, also it’s very unpopular, the party that won the last election (FPÖ) is even against being in the eu, but most austrians like the eu, they don’t wanna join nato tho

        EDIT: also the somewhat libertarian party (NEOS) got over 10% of the votes if I remember correctly, so please don’t take this country serios

    • beliquititious
      14·
      11 days ago

      If political ideologies were geography bound that would make great sense. Break it up, let the pieces govern themselves. But the problem is not everyone living in a red state is a Republican or maga fetishist and not everyone living in a blue state is a democrat or liberal.

      Cities are usually liberal, rural is usually conservative. I’d personally advocate for an expanded, air tight bill of rights with a federal government capable and willing to enforce it and all remaining decisions and rules be set by the local community, either city or county. Abolish state governments and reform them into regional managers that upkeep shared resources like roads, but with no legislative power.

    • TheObviousSolution@kbin.melroy.org
      2·
      11 days ago

      confederation

      … odd choice for a term … Nobody in the EU would define themselves by it …

      Well, trying to use terms to justify the US confederacy post-Civil War aside, it would actually be better for a lot of states. The rest of the world can no longer trust and increasingly bipolar schizophrenic US, whereas that’s not the case for a certain number of states. You can’t overcome the deeply flawed and corrupt two party federal system, and it’s rapidly becoming even worse. If you can’t fix the problems from within, you will only be able to fix them from outside.

      • Welt@lazysoci.alEnglish
        1·
        10 days ago

        I know they’re not in the EU, but that’s exactly what the Helvetic Confederation (Switzerland) do.

    • chiliedogg@lemmy.world
      1·
      11 days ago

      That’s what the Articles of Confederation were, and they were a disaster that only managed to keep the union alive for 8 years because people could hold their nose until the Constitution was ratified.

  • SwingingTheLamp@midwest.socialEnglish
    58·
    11 days ago

    For all of the reasons given, secession from the United States is a bad idea. But I’m going to keep banging this drum: The metropolises need to secede from their states, while staying part of the United States. Heck, Los Angeles County alone has more people than 40 of the states. It’s about time that they got fair representation.

    • Not a replicant@lemmy.worldEnglish
      16·
      11 days ago

      That’s an approach I’d never considered - is there wiggle-room in the state constitutions to split into smaller states?

      • Something Burger 🍔@jlai.lu
        28·
        11 days ago

        Article IV Section 3 of the US constitution

        New States may be admitted by the Congress into this Union; but no new State shall be formed or erected within the Jurisdiction of any other State; nor any State be formed by the Junction of two or more States, or Parts of States, without the Consent of the Legislatures of the States concerned as well as of the Congress.

        If a state agrees, a new state can be formed in its territory, effectively splitting it.

        • derf82@lemmy.worldEnglish
          17·
          11 days ago

          And there is the rub. Conservative legislators won’t allow it in most states, because it would mean more Dems in congress.

          Same in California for much the same reason. There has long been a Republican proposal to split it into 5 states so there are more Republican senators.

          • AA5B@lemmy.world
            5·
            11 days ago

            We could follow an approach like in the slavery days. Balance each new slave state with a free state.

            NY is a very blue state on the strength of NYC. But I grew up upstate, and there were just so many differences. ITs not just that it was a conservative rural area, but it was hard to find anything in common with the city and it always felt like the city dominated and we were afterthoughts. There was definite resentment and I’m sure it hasn’t helped as upstate economies and population dwindle while NYC strengthens. At the time you could split the population pretty evenly between conservative upstate and liberal city: there’d be a new red state to balance the new blue state of Los Angeles, and everyone could more closely elect their preferences

            • RubberElectrons@lemmy.world
              2·
              11 days ago

              For the record, we in NYC have unique needs that are sometimes time sensitive, see funding for tunnel doors after Sandy as an example. There was no intention to override or co-opt funds meant for people outside the metro area, we all live the beauty of the Hudson valley and so forth.

              That need for expedience generates ill will nonetheless, I forgot how many politicos from the state area would purposely slow down city requests or legislation unless a deal was attached.

              • AA5B@lemmy.world
                2·
                11 days ago

                I’m a huge fan of high speed rail and always hoped that could bring us together.

                • Currently, spending on rail is a divider since nyc has a huge rail system and rail effectively doesn’t exist in the rest of the state. Why should we spend money on a project that only benefits the city (forgetting which direction the money actually flows)?
                • if we all came together to build high speed rail to Albany, then up to Montreal and across the Mohawk valley to Buffalo (perhaps to be extended to Toronto), then the entire state benefits from rail. Upstate gets a much needed infusion to resurrect dying cities, we build a greater economy together, and NYC is the hub of a greater network. We can also all benefit by closer ties to our brothers up north and be part of a greater high speed rail network if their HSR gets off the ground
                • RubberElectrons@lemmy.world
                  2·
                  11 days ago

                  The “forgetting the money” is one of the parts we city people grumble quite a bit about amongst ourselves whenever the upstate politicos play games with our funding needs.

                  Look, the goal of govt is supposed to be benefit as many as possible, though for some that seems to also mean ignore the few, which I strongly disagree with.

                  If we build an HSR system within the city e.g. by replacing metro-north tracks, city people immediately benefit… but then the system can expand from there out to Schenectady, Albany buffalo etc. There’s no reason we can’t build your idea in a sensible, phased manner. We could go backwards too, start in buffalo and build south since the metro-north system is already fully functional.

                  I no longer live in NYC, but the years working for the MTA showed me a lot of the difficult, non-engineering problems to balance. Maybe there are ways to avoid the human problems associated with any large engineering project, but I don’t yet know if any such shortcuts exist or ever existed.

      • SwingingTheLamp@midwest.socialEnglish
        3·
        11 days ago

        I think it’s probably neither allowed nor disallowed in state constitutions, but I’m just a dilettante constitutional scholar. Whether it’s allowed or not under the current system, that system is broken and can’t be fixed within the limitations of the system, and it needs a disruption. Disruptions tend to be unpleasant, so this is the least-disruptive disruption that I’ve come up with. There’s even historical precedent for it, in the form of the free imperial cities of the Holy Roman Empire.

  • jagged_circle@feddit.nlEnglish
    55·
    11 days ago

    Lots of peoole didn’t read the article

    According to the text of the measure, the state would be required to create a 20-member state commission to study California’s viability as an independent country in 2027 and to publish a report the following year.
    …
    If the ballot question is approved, the proposal would declare a “vote of no confidence in the United States of America”, but would not change the state’s government or its relationship with the U.S. The measure would also call for the removal of the U.S. flag from all state buildings.

  • ALQ@lemmy.world
    48·
    11 days ago

    Y’know, as unrealistic as this (probably? I’m not really sure of anything, anymore) is, seeing this pop up in my scrolling gave me a bit of relief. I’ve been so terrified and angry and anxious and unsure of the (immediate) future that it’s practically paralyzed me. Knowing that this pipedream is there helped me breathe for a moment. I’ll take what relief I can get right now.

    • Mr_Blott@feddit.uk
      13·
      11 days ago

      Ah yes, because Brexit was such a success, demonstrating that this clearly would solve all your problems 😬

      • ALQ@lemmy.world
        6·
        11 days ago

        Oh, I agree, but I’ll still take whatever anxiety relief I can get right now.

      • ImADifferentBirdEnglish
        5·
        11 days ago

        The question is, at what point is continued membership in the US a bigger problem than splitting from it would be?

        California is large enough and prosperous enough that they could definitely make it as an independent nation, but the transition would be extremely difficult.

  • queermunist she/her@lemmy.ml
    42·
    11 days ago

    Okay, but then California becomes a smaller country bordering a much larger fascist neighbor with the largest military in the world.

    In what world is that a good outcome?

    • IninewCrow@lemmy.caEnglish
      12·
      11 days ago

      If they do start to secede or actually secede than it just becomes an expensive and complicated mess that doesn’t help anyone. Because even if they are forced back then the larger federation has to work ten times harder to keep them in place and cooperative and in the end becomes a net negative where they have to decide if it’s cheaper to let go or keep paying to stay together.

      Ask a Canadian what it means because we’ve had that discussion many times with Quebec and less often with other regions. It’s far cheaper for everyone to be cooperative and mutually benefiting one another on good terms than to threaten anyone into a corner … and even when things are working, it’s still not easy.

    • peregrin5@lemm.eeEnglish
      4·
      11 days ago

      Oregon and Washington would probably do the same if California seceded. (Which it won’t). If BC Canada left, Cascadia would be a thing that is large and prosperous enough to stand on it’s own. That or the three states just join Canada.

  • meyotch@slrpnk.net
    37·
    10 days ago

    Sorry California, you will have to negotiate with Colorado and Arizona for your water. So basically you have to take us with you.

    • Loss@sh.itjust.worksEnglish
      30·
      10 days ago

      If they just kick out the alfalfa farmers and the almond farms, they don’t need water imports.

        • werefreeatlast@lemmy.world
          17·
          10 days ago

          $1,000 to $3,000 per acre-foot of water produced, which can translate to about $2,000 to $3,500 per acre-foot for smaller-scale projects .

          • 1 acre-foot of water = 325,851 gallons

          • At $2,000 per acre-foot, the cost per gallon is about $0.0061 per gallon. Its really a range between $0.005 to $0.01 per gallon.

          Of course you can just move to a state that has water. Everyone knows you can just drink river water and lake water without any treatment at all. Plus the convenience of living near a swamp, river, lake or flood plane is superb. Otherwise you would need to carry the water somewhere else than where it is. But sure, you’re right, we shouldn’t desalinate water. That’s crazy!

          • Welt@lazysoci.alEnglish
            3·
            10 days ago

            River water and lake water are potable with minimal input, whereas desalination is prohibitively expensive. Unless there’s a free energy source somehow, we’re better off drinking river water or small beer as our ancestors did.

            • werefreeatlast@lemmy.world
              8·
              10 days ago

              Did you look at the numbers I researched for you? Those numbers give you water ready to drink. Once the water gets the salt removed, you can drink it. The desalination is basically cleaning the water. If you got a water filter at home, get some pH measuring test strips and measure the pH of the water from your tap and from the filter. You’ll find that there is a significant differences. It could be like two pH levels difference, and I think each level is one order of magnitude larger than the previous. So 100 times cleaner. Plus they get salt, which is a valuable byproduct.

              • ZombiFrancis@sh.itjust.works
                5·
                10 days ago

                FYI the pH of water is not a measurement of cleanliness, it is a measurement of the acidity-alkalinity. I am not sure if you were meaning that but it seems implied by your comment.

                • werefreeatlast@lemmy.world
                  2·
                  10 days ago

                  No, dude, I mean pH. The carbon in your filter will definitely alter the pH. PH is changed molecularly, so a filter for that must be chemical, electrical or both. Activated carbon is both. Plus all the gunk already trapped in it does like to react with the opposite charge.

                  This is fairly complicated stuff, its better to just give it a try.

          • probably2high@lemmy.worldEnglish
            2·
            10 days ago

            Oooh oooh, now do one for the AI GPU farms. Now, a lot of people would argue these are not a comparable use of vital resources, what with water being critical for the survival of all life, and AI the current billionaire snake oil.

            But I mean, what’s really more important than generating capital to grow the net worth of a few people by a few percents so that we can input text to generate pictures of a sick-ass panther or stories that lose the plot less than three sentences in?

            • NιƙƙιDιɱҽʂ@lemmy.world
              1·
              10 days ago

              A single ChatGPT query requires 500ml of water, or let’s say one water bottle. Meanwhile, a single cheeseburger requires 700 gallons of water or 5299 bottles.

              The whole “AI is wasting all the water” argument is not as significant as it seems when you compare it to literally anything else we as humans do.

              Electricity consumption, on the other hand…

              • probably2high@lemmy.worldEnglish
                2·
                10 days ago

                Sorry, I thought we were talking about the amount of power desalination uses. Didn’t even know AI consumes water.

                edit: wait a minute–why the fuck does AI consume water???

                Second edit: sorry, I got caught up in the original comment talking about the cost per minute for desalination, and immediately went to assuming they were talking about energy costs.

          • Korhaka@sopuli.xyzEnglish
            2·
            10 days ago

            Acre-foot? Fuck me that is a cursed unit. Americans really will use anything other than the metric system

  • Meursault@lemmy.world
    24·
    11 days ago

    Yes, please. As a Californian who is already looking to move abroad, it would be a dream come true for my state to do it for me.

      • Meursault@lemmy.world
        20·
        11 days ago

        My heart goes out to the rational minority in the red states. My advice to them is to leave while they can, however they can. This very well could be a matter of life and death.

        • HeroHelck@lemm.ee
          4·
          10 days ago

          Your heart goes out to us, how sweet, I’ll think of your heart when me and my friends who cannot leave are rounded up and sent to camps.

          • Meursault@lemmy.world
            14·
            10 days ago

            “Cannot leave?” My brother in Christ. If I honestly thought that my life was genuinely in danger of a violent end, should I remain where I am, I’d leave without hesitation. It costs nothing to get in your car and drive until you are across state lines RIGHT NOW, this very instant. I wouldn’t worry about selling my house, closing escrow (or trying to communicate or formalize anything with a landlord, were I renting), “getting my affairs in order”, or whatever else. I would first load up my car and then GTFO right goddamn NOW while I still draw breath. Yes, it’d be a hassle having to deal with those loose ends later, but my first priority would be my own self-preservation.

            • HeroHelck@lemm.ee
              4·
              10 days ago

              No, I think I’ll stay and try to protect whoever I can. I’ll probably get killed, I’ve more or less made peace with that.

              • Meursault@lemmy.world
                1·
                10 days ago

                That’s at least a stance I can admire. Keep yourself and your loved ones safe. And if it comes to it, you show those fascists what hell looks like when it wears the skin of a gentle human.

          • boonhet@lemm.ee
            2·
            9 days ago

            Look, I’ve got no dog in this fight, but in my opinion, something you need to make peace with is that the people in blue states have to watch out for themselves too, before the rot spreads too far and they find the modern day Gestapo on their own streets, killing their own people.

            And if/when they do split, try to understand them, and blame the fascists, not those trying to escape from fascism.

            Either way, if your life is threatened by fascists, I hope you’ll survive and make it out. If you don’t, I hope you’ll put up a good fight, but that’s up to you to decide, not me. I wish the best to all of you and hope that here in Europe we won’t decide to follow through on the whole right-wing swing of the pendulum.

  • Majorllama@lemmy.world
    23·
    11 days ago

    God dammit I find this so fucking hilarious. Every time a Republican wins you’ll inevitably see an article talking about California is to leave. And on the flip side every time we get a Democrat in office fuckin Texas starts bitching and tryna leave.

    I’m not going to say it’ll never happen, but I would be willing to bet all the 7 dollars I have to my name that it’s not gonna happen.

    • Modern_medicine_isnt@lemmy.world
      9·
      11 days ago

      Well in fairness, the pendulum keeps swinging farther with each new administration. So the split is never going to happen until it does. No way to know if this is the time or not. But unless something happens to break the cycle of more and more extremism, their will be a serious attempt at a split eventually. Weather it results in some kind of civil war where one side forces the other to stay, or a split actually happens is also unknowable.

  • icecreamtaco@lemmy.world
    23·
    11 days ago

    Do NOT fall for this shit, they’ve tried it before. This makes america an easy red majority and that’s the entire point of it. We’re in this together and not going anywhere

    • jaybone@lemmy.world
      37·
      11 days ago

      Fuck their red majority. Then those other states can secede too. Why should we continue to suffer for them?

      • Crikeste@lemm.ee
        15·
        11 days ago

        Even in red states, liberal cities are getting fucked over by the electoral college. Hi from Utah lmao

        There’s so much that needs fixing. I hate that it’s the fucking conservatives doing it. Fuck.

    • FundMECFSResearch
      9·
      11 days ago

      “Guys, we can’t leave this facist dictatorship, because it’ll be even more facist without us.”

  • Godric@lemmy.world
    22·
    10 days ago

    1. Brexit was clever wordplay, every proposal since hasn’t been. Fuckin “Calexit”, do better.

    2. Yeah, you don’t get to just leave a country. Believe it or not, there was actually at least one war about that!

    3. Fuck CBS for their cancer ass website.

  • Tug@lemmy.world
    21·
    9 days ago

    It’s nice to think about taking your ball and going home. However, if we denigrate Texas everytime they threaten to secede we really shouldn’t be giving California a pass.

    Edit- fix fat finger spelling

    • _cryptagion@lemmy.dbzer0.comEnglish
      13·
      9 days ago

      I don’t denigrate Texas every time they say they’re gonna secede. In fact, I want them to. If they don’t want to be a part of America, then let them go do their own thing. If that turns out to be a bad move for them, then that’s on them.