Perhaps Catholic institutions shouldn’t be forced to perform actions against their beliefs, but then they don’t get to use the word “hospital” in relation to whatever their building does.
I feel this should apply to pharmacies too. If you want to have pharmacists that can deny you valid prescriptions from your doctor, then they don’t get to call that building a “pharmacy”. Just like cigarettes there should be a large lettered warning on the door to the establishment informing you that the person inside has indicated they will deny you a prescription if they feel like it. If the pharmacists want to exercise their moral discretion, they don’t get to use the word “pharmacy” for whatever building/business they’re doing it in.
If they aren’t a hospital or pharmacy then they shouldn’t be able to practice medicine.
I mean, they could run clinics. Nothing saying they can’t specialize. Podiatrists don’t perform a lot of abortions, I’d imagine.
They’d try to be midwifes but end up aborting the baby during delivery because they take the feet out first. /s
Agreed. If you want to be a pharmacist, then be prepared to dispense contraceptives. If that conflicts with your religious beliefs, then you better figure our what you’re going to do with your life before you become a pharmacist.
wtf is a catholic hospital? you get wine and crackers while you wait in purgatory?
They add indulgence cost to your hospital bill
Remaining alive: such an indulgence…
I do not currently feel as though I am indulging…
I shall have another beer! Bravo!
Many hospitals are owned by the Catholic Church and are a huge source of income.
Not just the catholics, either. Many flavors of Christianity run hospitals.
It’s a good cover for diabolical greed
That’s all that organized religion has ever been about.
The kind that demon mother teresa ran. Where care is secondary to conversions
Edit: i said conversations. Lol
Faith healin’, money stealin’! Git it all in ONE PLACE!!
She who believed that people suffering was a good thing, actually… Seriously, the more someone learns about her, the more vile she is
the only 2 hospital networks in my area are literally named Trinity and Genesis, very blatant religious connotations there.
Catch some deathbed conversions mostly.
I think we should also force chuck e cheese to perform abortions.
fun for the whole family!
Instead of doctors we’d have AI controlled animatronics doing the deed.
A hospital is just a building and the organization that owns the building.
The real question is, should hospitals be allowed to force or forbid doctors from providing medical care?
A doctor (Catholic or not) should never, and can never, be forced to perform a medical procedure, including abortions. And they also shouldn’t be forbidden from performing a medical procedure.
Hospitals just provide rooms and equipment so that doctors can provide the care that their patients need, within their ability to provide that care.
“do no harm, unless it violated your specific religious ideology” that’s how the oath goes right?
“Do no harm” is not the same as “Do prevent harm.”
Also, if you’re citing the Hippocratic Oath,…
I will not give to a woman a pessary to cause abortion.
The Hippocratic Oath was created to forbid surgery, since it was a provable harm before modern hygienic standards. No one has sworn the original in centuries, but they do swear modernized versions which don’t include such ignorant nonsense.
The Hippocratic Oath was created to forbid surgery,
I will not use the knife […], but I will give place to such as are craftsmen therein.
Wtf? I don’t trust any physician who hasn’t sworn to Zeus!
Fuck Zeus.
Do you trust me as your physician now?
Idk it’s really more about Hermes, what’s your feelings on winged sandals?
You’re trying to sell us shoes aren’t you Herm. We know you’re the protector of thieves and merchants as well as the god of primitive medicine. Anyway yes I’m interested, how much?
This is really it. If a doctor has a moral objection to abortions, maybe gynecology wasn’t the right discipline for them to practice. That’s on them, and they should be upfront about it being a personal moral objection and for them to seek another doctor.
I’m fine with that compromise, because I suspect those doctors are and will remain the minority, and everyone’s rights are preserved.
But if a chief of medicine, or worse, a board of non-doctors, says their hospital won’t perform abortions on religious grounds? Then fuck you, you’re not a hospital, you are a faith-based healing center, and need to be treated as such.
Hospital administration needs to be science-based care and check their religion at the door, especially if they aren’t directly practicing. They shouldn’t be making decisions that directly effect people that they are indirectly related to based upon someone’s interpretation of an old anthology of fables.
I disagree somewhat. If a doctor is practicing in a situation where an abortion is necessary, it was their duty to not be a doctor if they find that morally repugnant.
That’s fine. Just don’t expect to keep your medical license as you sit around doing nothing as people die of preventable deaths.
If you’re a doctor, your job is to save lives. If you intentionally fail to do that job it shouldn’t be your job.
If a fireman refused to put out a fire because they didn’t feel like it, they’d be lose their job too.
should hospitals be allowed to force or forbid doctors from providing medical care?
They provide the facilities, which includes administration and legal and billing. So in that regard, they have to have some kind of say, simply because they need to stock the equipment, train the nurses/MAs, and establish standard protocols for a given procedure. Otherwise, how do you contest a medical malpractice claim?
A doctor (Catholic or not) should never, and can never, be forced to perform a medical procedure, including abortions. And they also shouldn’t be forbidden from performing a medical procedure.
Doctors can and do regularly incur liability if they fail to perform certain necessary medical procedures, particularly in emergency room settings. A doctor that fails to follow protocol can be subject to malpractice. If, for instance, a Christian Scientist doctor refused to provide a blood transfusion to an individual suffering from sever blood loss or a narcotics prohibitionist doctor attempts to do surgery without providing anesthesia, they can get in some serious trouble.
Religious convictions don’t override medical protocols. What’s at issue is the legality of the protocols as they stand. Can a woman whose health is at risk from pregnancy receive an abortion without the doctors incurring criminal liability?
Right now, it appears that State AGs in prohibitionist states are threatening the licenses and freedoms of doctors who would provide life-saving care. Hospital administrators are acting as intermediaries because the hospital itself would suffer legal liability if staff knowingly permitted/facilitated an illegal procedure.
Imagine I’m a doctor who refuses to prescribe medication because it makes people weak.
If y our religion dictates that you not perform life saving procedures, Then you have no business being in medicine.
I don’t want religious institutions near healthcare. Imposing attitudes of abstinence only moral puritanism on others. Thats not medicine. Like the WHO said 7 almost 8 years ago drug use needs to be globally decriminalized to remove attitudes of discrimination from health care settings. And at the time then nobody foresaw roe v wade being knocked back and turning the clock of social progress back 5/6 decades+ i wish j could say things cant get any worde but they can and they will. So we don’t need the people making things worse involved in the administration of medical care. We already have too many religious bigots with hoarded wealth whispering in the ear of the dumbest moron on the planet who has control of the nuclear football. And healthcare is already bastardized by the incentives of shareholder profits and the vultures of the for profit insurance industry whos sole purpose is tk deny people adequate health care to boost profits whenever possible so lets not shove religion down the throats of people who are often denied basic dignities.
Religious hospitals? What will they think of next!
At least in countries that charge patients money for their healthcare, these religious hospitals are free, right? Given how much money Christianity makes in donations, and given that their whole religion is all about helping others for nothing in return and without judgement, it would make sense they’d run free hospitals providing healthcare for all, no matter their situation ♥️
At least in countries that charge patients money for their healthcare, these religious hospitals are free, right?
A few, but not remotely all. It’s really up to the individual hospital.
Then you’ve got the weird case of St. Jude’s which is somehow not a Catholic hospital despite literally being built as a shrine to St. Jude Thaddeus (patron saint of hopeless causes) by a Catholic man to fulfill a promise he made to build a shrine to St. Jude. St. Jude’s also does not charge patients for treatment, travel, housing, or food though they will bill insurance where possible.
We have a Catholic hospital here in the city where I live in Ontario. Being publicly funded makes what they do different from the American ones, but despite doing women’s health and obstetrics they don’t do tubal ligation unless it’s approved by their board, so even if you had a planned c section and were planning on having your tubal during the procedure, if you had to have your c section on an emergency basis because you labour early, they won’t do it. It’s so fucked up. It’s a good hospital but come on. It’s 2025, most Catholics use birth control. If you don’t want to do abortions, fine, but a tubal during a c section is really just saving someone a second surgery.
they don’t do tubal ligation unless it’s approved by their board
So they aren’t above doing the procedure entirely? They’re just persnickity about who is “worthy” of receiving the service?
If you don’t want to do abortions, fine
It’s crazy how a life-saving procedure is off-the-table on the “Pro-Life” grounds.
Well I mean what are called therapeutic abortions. Not someone who needs a D and C for tissue that didn’t pass spontaneously or something. The Americans are crazy in that regard. If a pregnancy is nonviable it isn’t therapeutic abortion.
How come 90% of these twitter screenshots I see on lemmy are all just witty comebacks to fake opinions that nobody actually holds? This is like those “feminist gets rekt with facts and logic” compilation videos on youtube, but for liberals. Poking fun at strawmen every once in a while is entertaining, but it gets old really quickly.
This is a 100% real opinion a lot of people hold.
Nevermind, I think you’re right. I was confused by the term “catholic hospital”, but I looked it up and apparently a lot of hospitals around the world really do have a religious affiliations.
a woman i nannied for almost died giving birth to both of her sons. when she had the second one, she asked them to tie her tubes while they were doing the c section and they refused due to their religious policies. she had to fully recover from the birth and then find a doctor who would do the procedure, then had to recover again from that surgery.
Sadly, I have met actual Catholics who believe this.
If they want to have an argument on the Internet they don’t need to make up a bad take; it’s an abundant resource on the web.
I rotated through a Catholic hospital while getting my degree in genetic counseling. Our whole job was to give women with pregnancies at high risk of genetic conditions all the information they needed to make an informed decision on how they want to move forward, and we weren’t even allowed to mention the option of abortion. I was very glad when that rotation was over.
I would really like to see someone who is getting their degree or license push back on the requirement to rotate through a religious hospital, on the grounds that it violates the religious freedoms of the students.
If we’re going to have unconstitutional religious freedom laws, we may as well try and use them against our oppressors.
Wow
I thought the term “catholic hospital” was a joke. That doesn’t even make sense to me.
Something like 15% of hospitals in the US are Catholic hospitals.
True story about catholic hospitals, Sometimes, when a woman comes in having a miscarriage, catholic hospitals will just push her to the parking to die so Jesus won’t judge them for performing an abortion.
Homicide via medical neglect is totally fine as long as it’s done so the hospital staff doesn’t go to hell.
My wife had 2 miscarriages in the past few years, the first one almost killed her, she got sepsis and I genuinely thought she was going die for a while. It was around the time that I was hearing a bunch of stories from Texas, we’re no where near there but I remember being so scared that they would just push us out.
As soon as they realized what was happening they were 1000% on it. They had to call a doctor in who showed up within 10 minutes chugging a coffee at 3am. No one hesitated.
Everything I hear makes me tear up a little and appreciate that hospital so much. It’s 45 minutes away from us and there’s closer ones but that’s just where we go now and where we’re having our son in 2 months. I can’t imagine how things would have gone if we were 30 minutes west in a Bible thumping state.
That is so fucking scary and I am very happy to hear your wife made it through and the hospital you were at was invested in saving her life… as it should be.
If only these ridiculously dangerous religious hospitals could understand that.
If they don’t want to perform particular procedures based on their faith then they can call themseves a “Western Faith Therapy Centre”
“Western”? No, thank you.
I was going to suggest “Southern European” as an alternative but when you get down to it, everyone in their canon is from North Africa and the Middle East so maybe “Middle Eastern Faith Therapy Centre”?
Reclassify abortion as an exorcism, get a priest chanting some Latin during the procedure and done.
Rather not, I’d be worried they’d “fuck up” on purpose.
I’d like to believe that the vast majority of doctors care about the lives of their patients and are capable of weighing that against the viability of the fetus.
Or even accidentally. I’d prefer my doctors to be familiar with the procedures they do. I don’t want the doctor that hasn’t done something in a decade of there’s another option reasonably available.
I honestly disagree.
If i’m a programmer working at a company, and that company asks me to write code that would enable autonomous rockets for warfare (like armed drones), i might refuse because i have ethical concerns about it. But i’m still a programmer.
From the view of catholic hospital staff, providing abortions might be murder, and they have ethical concerns about it. They are still a hospital.
Nah, for the catholic hospital staff they probably shouldn’t have a job if it goes against their personal ethics.
But organizations do not have religion.
In both your programmer case and the case of the catholic hospital staff member you have a very clear option, you can not work at that facility. Don’t want to write code for military weapons, cool then work somewhere that doesn’t do that. Don’t want to provide abortions at your work, cool then work in a medical facility that doesn’t provide them. Many facilities don’t perform abortions just because they aren’t intended to, such as clinics etc so you should work there.
Your programmer case also doesn’t make sense because extending the metophor you want companies to be allowed to not develop software that is used by the military…they can already do that.
Ok but your thing is an actual problem and their thing is a made up non-problem which it is their job and (ironically) sacred hippocratic duty to perform.
The real irony is that, while Hippocrates was not a Christian, the hippocratic oath forbids doctors to perform abortion.
Today, doctors take an amended oath in most countries with a few changes but the original Hippocratic oath tries to instill a reverence for life in the practitioners of medicine.
Does refusing to program a drone prevent a cancer patient from receiving treatment? Do these drones prevent organ rupture in ectopic pregnancies? When asked to program armed drones, are you also sitting face-to-face with a person who is suffering or dying because you aren’t actively programming them?
The denial of healthcare involves victims. Nobody’s hurt when you refuse to do a drone-programming job, but witholding a medically-necessary abortion directly results in avoidable human suffering. That’s the key difference that makes these situations incomparable.
Then don’t get a job at a defense company. If you don’t want to provide abortions, don’t get a job at a hospital.
Plus it’s probably way easier for them to fuck kids at a Chuck E. Cheese. Actually it’s probably easier at the hospitals but the supply is larger at the Chuck E. Cheese.
